Author Topic: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture  (Read 398 times)

Offline Irishcyclist

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Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« on: May 19, 2017, 12:55:41 PM »
I hope that this isn't a stupid question.

I'm having a discussion with an atheist about the soul, and by extension the immortality of the soul. The atheist has asked me to quote where in Scripture does Jesus Christ say that the soul is immortal.

Maybe it is my own stupidity, but I can't locate in the New Testament anywhere that Jesus teaches that the soul is immortal!
I know there are other parts of the New Testament which teach that the soul is immortal, but those parts are not quoting Jesus own words.

Can any of our brains trust here point in to a verse in which Jesus teaches about the soul, and ideally about it's immortality?

Thanks in advance.
 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 01:19:57 PM »
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. (Matthew 25:46)
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 01:25:11 PM »
I think St. Paul says something about it in Corinthians 15.

Verse 50 ish?

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:29:20 PM by Greg »
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 01:49:51 PM »
John Ch. 6
 [39] Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. [40] And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up on the last dayk
 [39] Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. [40] And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

[41] The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [42] And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? [43] Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. [44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. [45] It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.



[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. ... [47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. ... [48] I am the bread of life. ... [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. ... [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

... [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. ... [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. ... [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? ... [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. ... [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:54:27 PM by Michael Wilson »
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP
 

Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 02:53:03 PM »
Thanks John, Greg & Mike, for your individual replies.

I think John's reply is probably what the atheist might be seeking, although I anticipate that there is no mention of the word soul by St Matthew :huh:

Greg, St.Paul is clear - the reply I'll get is that St.Paul isn't Jesus Christ.

Mike, St.John's text is useful too.

I know the reply from the atheist is going to be "but none of those texts state soul or immortality"
That's the kind of atheist, I discussing with. :cheesehead:

Thanks again for all of your help!
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 03:05:04 PM »
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm
"By immortality is ordinarily understood the doctrine that the human soul will survive death, continuing in the possession of an endless conscious existence. Together with the question of the existence of God, it forms the most momentous issue with which philosophy has to deal. It belongs primarily to rational or metaphysical psychology and the philosophy of religion, though it comes also into contact with other branches of philosophy and some of the natural sciences."
No where in this article do I find a ref to Scripture. I assume because there isn't any literal  Scripture passage stating this.
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 03:05:33 PM »
Dear Irishcyclist,

Why would the atheist care what the bible says?

I would think an argument from reason would be more convincing.

For example, the human mind can conceive, analyze, and even picture phenomena that cannot possibly physically exist.  Hence, the mind is evidently meta-physical, or spiritual, if you will.  It operates above/beyond the mere physical/material.

Proving from reason that the soul is immortal is another matter; but showing that we clearly possess a non-material faculty might be a good start.
 
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Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 03:31:26 PM »
Dear Irishcyclist,

Why would the atheist care what the bible says?

I would think an argument from reason would be more convincing.

For example, the human mind can conceive, analyze, and even picture phenomena that cannot possibly physically exist.  Hence, the mind is evidently meta-physical, or spiritual, if you will.  It operates above/beyond the mere physical/material.

Proving from reason that the soul is immortal is another matter; but showing that we clearly possess a non-material faculty might be a good start.

Thanks for that advice, Columba. I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say that even if the Bible stated Jesus Christ saying what the atheist demands of Him, I doubt he would begin to believe.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 05:22:32 PM »
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

Those are the words of Jesus Christ reported by Matthew.

Jesus mentions the world soul.  Twice!
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 06:01:27 PM »
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

Those are the words of Jesus Christ reported by Matthew.

Jesus mentions the world soul.  Twice!

this quote is speaking of something different. In any case it says the soul is not immortal as it says it can be destroyed.
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 07:29:53 PM »
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

Those are the words of Jesus Christ reported by Matthew.

Jesus mentions the world soul.  Twice!

this quote is speaking of something different. In any case it says the soul is not immortal as it says it can be destroyed.

Thanks St. Justin. But, as you know, spiritual death to the soul is brought about by mortal (which means death) sin.  The soul still exists, but is spiritually dead.
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 08:46:44 PM »
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

Those are the words of Jesus Christ reported by Matthew.

Jesus mentions the world soul.  Twice!

this quote is speaking of something different. In any case it says the soul is not immortal as it says it can be destroyed.

Thanks St. Justin. But, as you know, spiritual death to the soul is brought about by mortal (which means death) sin.  The soul still exists, but is spiritually dead.

I understand that but no atheist would was my point. That is why I said it was speaking of  something different than the immortality of the soul because if it was then it would mean the soul was not immortal. I guess I just didn't explain it very well.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2017, 03:02:54 AM »
But if he accepts the quote is true then it means the souls not in Hell are not destroyed.  And if they are not destroyed they are immortal.

Obviously something is only "immortal" due to God's will anyway.
 

Offline james03

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2017, 11:25:52 AM »
You were answered, I'd like to add that you need to avoid dualism.

Is "triangle" immortal?  Is "blue" immortal? (yes) Did we invent or discover mathematical facts? (they were discovered).

The soul is our form.  The essence of our soul is is self awareness.  Our form is immaterial.  Since immaterial "real things" like "blue" and "triangle" have no time nor place, they are called immortal.  Our soul has the same characteristic in that it is immaterial.  Now when you combine it with material (the body) we have the individual person.  However after the person dies, the soul still exists, and it is self aware.  If you erase an individual triangle, "triangle" still exists.  Same concept.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 

Offline MiserereDomine

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Re: Immortality of the Soul : in Scripture
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2017, 01:19:43 AM »
I hope that this isn't a stupid question.

I'm having a discussion with an atheist about the soul, and by extension the immortality of the soul. The atheist has asked me to quote where in Scripture does Jesus Christ say that the soul is immortal.

Maybe it is my own stupidity, but I can't locate in the New Testament anywhere that Jesus teaches that the soul is immortal!
I know there are other parts of the New Testament which teach that the soul is immortal, but those parts are not quoting Jesus own words.

Can any of our brains trust here point in to a verse in which Jesus teaches about the soul, and ideally about it's immortality?

Thanks in advance.

You can actually know the immortality of the soul by reason alone. Here is the bare-bones proof, taken from a book I studied by my Ethics teacher, Father Sebastian Walshe, O. Praem. This is taken out of an entire year's course of philosophy--I hope you understand enough, though it will be hard. If I had personally payed more attention in class, I would probably be able to be simpler and more concise. I am going through the books again on my own time, but here goes for the immortality of the soul:

We define the soul as follows: The soul is the substantial form of a natural living body.
A "substantial form" is defined as follows: That which makes a thing to be what it is simply speaking.

Nominally, the soul is "whatever makes a living body different from a non-living body".
Now in this sense, plants and brute animals have souls. The souls of these, however, are not immortal. We will prove the immortality of the human soul, that is, "That which makes a living human body different from any other kind of body"

"For a being to be immortal, two criteria must be met: 1.) The being must be alive, and 2.) The living being must be of such a nature that its existence cannot be taken away from it. It is obvious that the human soul is alive and exercises living activities. Moreover, it has already been demonstrated [in this text] that the human soul is capable of exercising some living activities (such as understanding) apart from the body. The question remains: is the human soul of such a nature that its existence cannot be taken away from it?

To answer this question we must return to the definition of soul: the substantial form of a natural, living body. Now a substantial form is by definition "that which makes a thing to be what it is simply speaking." The substantial form gives being to the composite [substance], and in the case of the soul, that being is a kind of life. So it belongs to the very nature or definition of a substantial form to be that by which something exists. Since a form is that by which anything exists, it follows that the only way to take existence away from a thing is to take away its form. But a form cannot be taken away or separated from itself: it belongs to the very nature and definition of a form to be a form.

Therefore, if a form not only gives being to the composite, but also to itself, it would follow the such a form could not ever cease to exist. Now substantial forms are of two kinds: some forms only cause existence in the composite. But other forms, namely the human soul, not only cause existence in a composite but have existence in themselves, since they have an operation apart from the body and can exist apart from a body.

It follows that such a substantial form which can exist apart from the body will always exist. Hence, the human soul is immortal."

-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -

NOW for the sake of a more thorough run-through, I will give the proof for the human soul being able to exist apart from the body.

"Now the key issue at stake here is whether or not it can be shown that the human soul is capable of exercising an activity which does not depend upon any bodily organ. Most living activities seem to depend upon a bodily organ. The eye is the organ of sight, the ear is the organ of hearing, the tongue is the organ of taste, and so on. Whenever sensation takes place, it is due to the reception of a sensible form in the sense organ; and even though this form is received in an immaterial way, a physical change of the sense organ is still necessary to produce these sensations. But if it can be shown that the human soul has some activity which is, of itself, exercised apart from the body, then it would follow that the human soul is capable of acting without the body. And if the human soul is capable of acting without the body, it must subsist after separation from the body.

The basic proof for the immateriality of the rational soul is a syllogism as follows:

A "nature" is defined as "An intrinsic principle of motion and rest which is first and per se"

1. A thing must lack what it is able to receive
2. But the human understanding is able to receive all material natures
3. Therefore, the human understanding must lack all material natures [and thus is immaterial]

Continuing on to its ability to exercise some power (specifically the understanding) apart from the body:

4. If the human understanding is capable of receiving the form of any material thing, then the human understanding must be lacking the form of any material thing.
5. But the human understanding is capable of receiving the form of any material thing
6. Therefore, the human understanding must be lacking the form of any material thing.

So our power of understanding does not have the form of any material thing as its own form. Therefore, when we understand something, this activity is not the activity of any bodily or material organ. And as we said above, if a part of our soul could be shown to have some activity which is independent of a bodily organ, it would follow that this part of the soul must be capable of existing apart from our body.

Our conclusion is that the human soul is capable of existing apart from the body.




BOOM, BABY! Dat hyoo-man soul be EEEEEMOORRRRTAL!

Like it or not, it's true!

I hope this at least piques your interest in the philosophy of the soul. I've got a whole book on it, together with supplementary text from the Summa Theologiae!
 
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