When is anger a mortal sin

[Chestertonian]

anger is an emotion so a lot of times i don't choose to be angry it just hits me

At what point do you sin and what point is it a mortal sin?

I have PTSD and rage is easily provoked

[dymphna17]

I was told that it becomes a mortal sin when you begin to wish/pray for evil to befall whomever you are angry with, i.e. wishing them to go to hell.  Some things deserve our righteous anger, in other words, it can be appropriate.  It's when hate the sin but not the sinner kicks in.  If you ignore that and don't try to control the hatred or seething rage and direct it to the proper place, then sin can begin to take place.

[Daniel]

Emotional anger begins in the passions. And as long as it remains solely in the passions, it's not a sin (it's not even a "human act"). Because as you said, it just comes to you. We don't really have any control over whether or not we get angry.

But as soon as the anger moves from the passions to the will then it becomes a "human act". And at that point it is either good or evil, depending upon whether or not the anger is under the control of our reason (it's a sin if you get angry without an objectively good reason), and depending upon whether or not our reaction is proportionate to the thing we are reacting against (i.e. it's a sin to overreact, even if you have good reason to be angry). As for venial vs. mortal, I don't know. Some anger is clearly graver than other anger. Not sure whether all anger is mortal though.

As for knowing the difference between anger in the passions and anger in the will, I don't know. That's something I have trouble with. You can easily know that you're angry, but you can't always as easily know whether it's in your passions, or your will, or both.

when you begin to wish/pray for evil to befall whomever you are angry with, i.e. wishing them to go to hell.

But isn't that the sin of cursing rather than anger? Or some sort of hatred? It may be motivated by anger, but I think it's a separate sin. Some of these sins seem to overlap and I am sometimes not exactly sure how to confess them...

[Rocket Scientist]

anger is an emotion so a lot of times i don't choose to be angry it just hits me

At what point do you sin and what point is it a mortal sin?

I have PTSD and rage is easily provoked

Our divine Saviour gives also an explanation of the fifth commandment, when he says: "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill.  And whosoever shall kill, shall be guilty of the judgment.  But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be guilty of the judgment.  And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be guilty of the council.  And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be guilty of hell-fire."

1.  The words of Christ:  "You have heard that it was said to them of old." Have this sense: God gave to your forefathers, the Israelites, the commandment upon Mount Sinai: "Thou shalt not kill."  The addition, "Whosoever shall kill, shall be guilty of the judgement," is not from God, but from the Pharisees.  God forbade in the fifth commandment, not only the actual murder of man, but also murder in the will or heart, and all that leads to murder, such as anger, hatred, and calumny.  But in order to limit the fifth commandment to the wicked deed alone, the Scribes and Pharisees added:  "Whosoever shall kill"—therefore, not he who is only angry with his neighbor and hates and calumniates him, "shall be guilty of the judgment."  They not only did not consider inward sins against the fifth commandment, such as anger and hatred, to be forbidden, but even went so far as to hold that calumnies and slander were no violation of this commandment, and that, consequently, they were licit!  What a delusion! When conscience itself tells every man, that he must not be angry with any one without cause; must not hate, much less revile or calumniate him.  There are many Christians who herein resemble the Scribes and the Pharisees.  Because outwardly they commit no gross sins, they consider themselves just.  When they confess at Easter they say:  "I do not remember having committed a mortal sin.  I have killed no one, I have not stolen, I have not committed adultery."  They do not consider that there are inward sins, sins of omission, sins against the duties of religion and sate of life, which draw eternal damnation after them.

2.  With the words, "but I say to you," Christ indicates his dignity as law-giver.  No patriarch, no prophet of the Old Law, could or dared speak in his own name, but only in the name of God.  Now Christ speaks here in his own name:  "But I say to you," and thereby declares that he is the Son of God, and has power to make laws in his own name.  And what does he say?  He declares that the fifth commandment may be broken also in thoughts and words.

(a) In thoughts.  "But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be guilty of the judgment."  He teaches that those who are angry with their neighbors are as guilty of the judgment as those who, according to the doctrine of the Scribes and the Pharisees, actually commit murder.  I must, however, remark here that every anger is not sinful and against the fifth commandment.  There is also a just anger; hence we read in the fourth Psalm: "Be angry, and sin not."  If we are angry with somebody, not because we hate him or wish him ill, but because we love him and mean well by him, and punish him in anger, not from a desire of revenge, but for his correction and amendment, and therein do not transgress the limits of reason, the anger is just, and, in certain cases, even obligatory.  Saint Gregory says: "Because Heli had not this anger, he provoked the irreconcilable higher revenge against himself."  Such a holy anger or zeal Christ had, and Saint Paul.  If we are angry with some one, but wish him no great evil, and have not the desire of revenge, but only a small aversion, and are only a little excited against him, the anger is a fault against the fifth commandment, but is only a venial sin.  Anger is a mortal sin when we, in an unjust way, wish him a great evil, even death, or when we have even the will to kill him or to do him some other great injury, as soon as an opportunity would present itself.  If we have such an anger the words of Saint John apply to us:  "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer."  It is evident that the actual murder is a more grievous sin than murder in the heart.  Moreover, Christ has forbidden anger because murders often originate from it.  Because Cain did not control the anger which he had conceived against his brother Abel, he became a murderer.  Never let a sinful anger arise in your heart, bear no aversion to others, much less entertain hostile and revengeful thoughts; on the contrary, be benevolent towards all and wish them well, for it is an obligation for us Christians to love all as brothers and sisters love one another.

(b) In words.  "Whosoever shall to his brother Raca, shall be guilty of the council.  And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be guilty of hell-fire."  The words, "Raca" and "fool" were scornful names among the Jews.  The word "Raca" meant as much as good-for-nothing fellow, worthless man.  By the word "fool" they designated a very wicked, impious man; it was the greatest ignominy.  There were two kinds of tribunals in Judea: a lesser, which, in every town, consisted of priests and of heads of families, and took cognizance of lesser crimes, and a higher, which consisted of seventy-two persons, in which the highest causes only were tried and judged, and which was held at Jerusalem.  The meaning of the passage is this: He who is angry with his neighbor in his heart is guilty of the judgment—he sins and is guilty of punishment before God if his anger is unjust; he who lets his anger break out into words, sins more grievously, and his sin is the greater and more culpable, the more rudely he abuses his neighbor.  That the anger which breaks out into rude and bitter tirades is more culpable than that which remains shut up in the heart is evident, because by such invectives our neighbor is more mortified and offended, and because from it originate also greater evils than from interior anger, such as lasting enmities, quarrels, wounds, and homicides.  Guard against invectives.  If you have reason to be angry with any one, do not abuse him, call him no bad names, for even the worst man will not stand them, they only provoke him and fill him with anger and bitterness.  I exhort you, Christian parents, in particular, never to give nicknames to your children, and do not permit them to give nicknames to one another.  Do not, like some senseless, unreasonable fathers and mothers, when their children commit any fault, fill the whole house with noise, curse and blaspheme and break out into all manner of invectives against their children, but who, after they are calmed down, leave everything as before without employing the means of effecting a radical amendment in their children.  If you have reason to be angry with your children, let no wrong word proceed from your mouth; say what you have to say, without passion, and convince your children by your whole conduct, that your motive in correcting them is not anger, but love for them, and solicitude for their welfare.

Finally, our Saviour admonishes us to reconciliation, in the words: "If therefore thou offerest thy gift at the altar, and there shalt remember that thy brother hath anything against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go to be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

In these words Christ teaches us that we must reconcile ourselves with our neighbor without delay.  We would think that if one were already at the altar and about to offer his gift, he might do that first, and then it would suffice for him to go to his neighbor and be reconciled; but no, Christ says just the contrary: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go to be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.  And Saint Paul admonishes us not to let the sun go down upon our anger.  How contrary to Christianity do those people act who, for weeks, months and years, bear aversion, hatred and enmity against their neighbors in their hearts, and will not hear of reconciliation!  Should there be any among you who in this point have reason to reproach themselves let them from this moment lay aside all rancor and enmity, and embrace the first opportunity to reconcile themselves also exteriorly with their neighbor.  The patriarch Saint John the Almoner once got into a quarrel with his treasurer about the disposition of a considerable sum of money that had just come in.  The treasurer wished to put it out on interest, but the patriarch insisted that the money could not be better employed than by giving it to the poor.  When each one had insisted upon his own opinion they parted in anger.  When evening was setting in, the patriarch sent a priest to the treasurer to say: Sir, the sun is going down.  He burst into tears and immediately went to the patriarch and asked his pardon.

2. That without reconciliation no good work is acceptable to God.

The highest and holiest work of the Old Law, and that which was most accept able to God, was the sacrifices.  The sacrifice of the Mass is infinitely more precious, because the God-man Jesus Christ offers himself up to his heavenly Father by the hands of the priest.  And behold, even this tremendous sacrifice God does not accept from us, if we assist at it with an implacable or pitiless heart.  The same is to be said of all other good works.  Pray for hours in the church, give alms, receive the Sacraments, perform good works—God does not accept these good works, and you have no merit from them if you live in discord with your neighbor and will not hear of reconciliation.  This is also the reason why the priest cannot give absolution to a penitent, so long as he does not lay aside enmity.  If he should pronounce the words of absolution a hundred times, they would be null and void, for Christ expressly says:  "If you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive your sins."

PERORATION

Remember the important lessons which God gives you in the Gospel of this day, and follow them.  Be not satisfied with an apparent justice, but aspire to true justice, which alone has value before God.  Do the will of God in all things, hate and detest all evil and do good, and in all your works seek, not vain human praise, but only the honor of God and your own salvation.  Banish all ill-will and indignation, and all anger and hatred from your heart; bridle your tongue and speak not when excited.  If the peace is disturbed between you and any of your neighbors from whatever cause, do not live in discord, but be reconciled with them as soon as possible, that you may not tell a lie to God, but speak the truth when you say in the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us."  (Father John Zollner, Pulpit Orator, 1884)

[Maximilian]

Institutes (John Cassian)

Book VIII
Chapter 1

How our fourth conflict is against the sin of anger, and how many evils this passion produces.

In our fourth combat the deadly poison of anger has to be utterly rooted out from the inmost comers of our soul. For as long as this remains in our hearts, and blinds with its hurtful darkness the eye of the soul, we can neither acquire right judgment and discretion, nor gain the insight which springs from an honest gaze, or ripeness of counsel, nor can we be partakers of life, or retentive of righteousness, or even have the capacity for spiritual and true light: "for," says one, "my eye is disturbed by reason of anger." Nor can we become partakers of wisdom, even though we are considered wise by universal consent, for "anger rests in the bosom of fools." Nor can we even attain immortal life, although we are accounted prudent in the opinion of everybody, for "anger destroys even the prudent." Nor shall we be able with clear judgment of heart to secure the controlling power of righteousness, even though we are reckoned perfect and holy in the estimation of all men, for "the wrath of man works not the righteousness of God." James 1:20 Nor can we by any possibility acquire that esteem and honour which is so frequently seen even in worldlings, even though we are thought noble and honourable through the privileges of birth, because "an angry man is dishonoured." Nor again can we secure any ripeness of counsel, even though we appear to be weighty, and endowed with the utmost knowledge; because "an angry man acts without counsel." Nor can we be free from dangerous disturbances, nor be without sin, even though no sort of disturbances be brought upon us by others; because "a passionate man engenders quarrels, but an angry man digs up sins."

Chapter 2.

Of those who say that anger is not injurious, if we are angry with those who do wrong, since God Himself is said to be angry.

We have heard some people trying to excuse this most pernicious disease of the soul, in such a way as to endeavour to extenuate it by a rather shocking way of interpreting Scripture: as they say that it is not injurious if we are angry with the brethren who do wrong, since, say they, God Himself is said to rage and to be angry with those who either will not know Him, or, knowing Him, spurn Him, as here: "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people;" or where the prophet prays and says, "O Lord, rebuke me not in your anger, neither chasten me in your displeasure;" not understanding that, while they want to open to men an excuse for a most pestilent sin, they are ascribing to the Divine Infinity and Fountain of all purity a taint of human passion.

Chapter 3.

Of those things which are spoken of God anthropomorphically.

For if when these things are said of God they are to be understood literally in a material gross signification, then also He sleeps, as it is said, "Arise, wherefore do you sleep, O Lord?" though it is elsewhere said of Him: "Behold he that keeps Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." And He stands and sits, since He says, "Heaven is my seat, and earth the footstool for my feet:" Isaiah 66:1 though He "measure out the heaven with his hand, and holds the earth in his fist." Isaiah 40:12 And He is "drunken with wine" as it is said, "The Lord awoke like a sleeper, a mighty man, drunken with wine;" He "who only has immortality and dwells in the light which no man can approach unto:" 1 Timothy 6:16 not to say anything of the "ignorance" and "forgetfulness," of which we often find mention in Holy Scripture: nor lastly of the outline of His limbs, which are spoken of as arranged and ordered like a man's; e.g., the hair, head, nostrils, eyes, face, hands, arms, fingers, belly, and feet: if we are willing to take all of which according to the bare literal sense, we must think of God as in fashion with the outline of limbs, and a bodily form; which indeed is shocking even to speak of, and must be far from our thoughts.


Chapter 5.

How calm a monk ought to be.

And so a monk aiming at perfection, and desiring to strive lawfully in his spiritual combat, should be free from all sin of anger and wrath, and should listen to the charge which the "chosen vessel" gives him. "Let all anger," says he, "and wrath, and clamour, and evil speaking, be taken away from among you, with all malice." Ephesians 4:31 When he says, "Let all anger be taken away from you," he excepts none whatever as necessary or useful for us. And if need be, he should at once treat an erring brother in such a way that, while he manages to apply a remedy to one afflicted with perhaps a slight fever, he may not by his wrath involve himself in a more dangerous malady of blindness. For he who wants to heal another's wound ought to be in good health and free from every affection of weakness himself, lest that saying of the gospel should be used to him, "Physician, first heal yourself;" Luke 4:23 and lest, seeing a mote in his brother's eye, he see not the beam in his own eye, for how will he see to cast out the mote from his brother's eye, who has the beam of anger in his own eye? Matthew 7:3-5

Chapter 6.

Of the righteous and unrighteous passion of wrath.

From almost every cause the emotion of wrath boils over, and blinds the eyes of the soul, and, bringing the deadly beam of a worse disease over the keenness of our sight, prevents us from seeing the sun of righteousness. It makes no difference whether gold plates, or lead, or what metal you please, are placed over our eyelids, the value of the metal makes no difference in our blindness.

Chapter 7.

Of the only case in which anger is useful to us.

We have, it must be admitted, a use for anger excellently implanted in us for which alone it is useful and profitable for us to admit it, viz., when we are indignant and rage against the lustful emotions of our heart, and are vexed that the things which we are ashamed to do or say before men have risen up in the lurking places of our heart, as we tremble at the presence of the angels, and of God Himself, who pervades all things everywhere, and fear with the utmost dread the eye of Him from whom the secrets of our hearts cannot possibly be hid.

Chapter 9.

Of the anger which should be directed against ourselves.

And some are commanded to "be angry" after a wholesome fashion, but with our own selves, and with evil thoughts that arise, and "not to sin," viz., by bringing them to a bad issue. Finally, the next verse explains this to be the meaning more clearly: "The things you say in your hearts, be sorry for them on your beds:" i.e., whatever you think of in your hearts when sudden and nervous excitements rush in on you, correct and amend with wholesome sorrow, lying as it were on a bed of rest, and removing by the moderating influence of counsel all noise and disturbance of wrath. Lastly, the blessed Apostle, when he made use of the testimony of this verse, and said, "Be angry and sin not," added, "Let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give place to the devil." Ephesians 4:26 If it is dangerous for the sun of righteousness to go down upon our wrath, and if when we are angry we straightway give place to the devil in our hearts, how is it that above he charges us to be angry, saying, "Be angry, and sin not"? Does he not evidently mean this: be angry with your faults and your tempers, lest, if you acquiesce in them, Christ, the sun of righteousness, may on account of your anger begin to go down on your darkened minds, and when He departs you may furnish a place for the devil in your hearts?

Chapter 10.

Of the sun, of which it is said that it should not go down upon your wrath.

And of this sun God clearly makes mention by the prophet, when He says, "But to those that fear my name the sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2 And this again is said to "go down" at midday on sinners and false prophets, and those who are angry, when the prophet says, "Their sun is gone down at noon." Amos 8:9 And at any rate "tropically" the mind, that is the ???? or reason, which is fairly called the sun because it looks over all the thoughts and discernings of the heart, should not be put out by the sin of anger: lest when it "goes down" the shadows of disturbance, together with the devil their author, fill all the feelings of our hearts, and, overwhelmed by the shadows of wrath, as in a murky night, we know not what we ought to do. In this sense it is that we have brought forward this passage of the Apostle, handed down to us by the teaching of the elders, because it was needful, even at the risk of a somewhat lengthy discourse, to show how they felt with regard to anger, for they do not permit it even for a moment to effect an entrance into our heart: observing with the utmost care that saying of the gospel: "Whosoever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment." Matthew 5:22 But if it be lawful to be angry up till sunset, the surfeit of our wrath and the vengeance of our anger will be able to give full play to passion and dangerous excitement before that sun inclines towards its setting.

Chapter 11.

Of those to whose wrath even the going down of the sun sets no limit.

But what am I to say of those (and I cannot say it without shame on my own part) to whose implacability even the going down of the sun sets no bound: but prolonging it for several days, and nourishing rancorous feelings against those against whom they have been excited, they say in words that they are not angry, but in fact and deed they show that they are extremely disturbed? For they do not speak to them pleasantly, nor address them with ordinary civility, and they think that they are not doing wrong in this, because they do not seek to avenge themselves for their upset. But since they either do not dare, or at any rate are not able to show their anger openly, and give place to it, they drive in, to their own detriment, the poison of anger, and secretly cherish it in their hearts, and silently feed on it in themselves; without shaking off by an effort of mind their sulky disposition, but digesting it as the days go by, and somewhat mitigating it after a while.

Chapter 12.

How this is the end of temper and anger when a man carries it into act as far as he can.

But it looks as if even this was not the end of vengeance to every one, but some can only completely satisfy their wrath or sulkiness if they carry out the impulse of anger as far as they are able; and this we know to be the case with those who restrain their feelings, not from desire of calming them, but simply from want of opportunity of revenge. For they can do nothing more to those with whom they are angry, except speak to them without ordinary civility: or it looks as if anger was to be moderated only in action, and not to be altogether rooted out from its hiding place in our bosom: so that, overwhelmed by its shadows, we are unable not only to admit the light of wholesome counsel and of knowledge, but also to be a temple of the Holy Spirit, so long as the spirit of anger dwells in us. For wrath that is nursed in the heart, although it may not injure men who stand by, yet excludes the splendour of the radiance of the Holy Ghost, equally with wrath that is openly manifested.

Chapter 13.

That we should not retain our anger even for an instant.

Or how can we think that the Lord would have it retained even for an instant, since He does not permit us to offer the spiritual sacrifices of our prayers, if we are aware that another has any bitterness against us: saying, "If then you bring your gift to the altar and there rememberest that your brother has anything against you, leave there your gift at the altar and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matthew 5:23-24 How then may we retain displeasure against our brother, I will not say for several days, but even till the going down of the sun, if we are not allowed to offer our prayers to God while he has anything against us? And yet we are commanded by the Apostle: "Pray without ceasing;" 1 Thessalonians 5:17 and "in every place lifting up holy hands without wrath and disputing." 1 Timothy 2:8 It remains then either that we never pray at all, retaining this poison in our hearts, and become guilty in regard of this apostolic or evangelic charge, in which we are bidden to pray everywhere and without ceasing; or else if, deceiving ourselves, we venture to pour forth our prayers, contrary to His command, we must know that we are offering to God no prayer, but an obstinate temper with a rebellious spirit.


Chapter 17.

That the peace of our heart does not depend on another's will, but lies in our own control.

The chief part then of our improvement and peace of mind must not be made to depend on another's will, which cannot possibly be subject to our authority, but it lies rather in our own control. And so the fact that we are not angry ought not to result from another's perfection, but from our own virtue, which is acquired, not by somebody else's patience, but by our own long-suffering.

[Maximilian]

Chapter 19.

An illustration to help in forming an opinion on those who are only patient when they are not tried by any one.

But it is like all poisonous kinds of serpents or of wild beasts, which, while they remain in solitude and their own lairs, are still not harmless; for they cannot really be said to be harmless, because they are not actually hurting anybody. For this results in their case, not from any feeling of goodness, but from the exigencies of solitude, and when they have secured an opportunity of hurting some one, at once they produce the poison stored up in them, and show the ferocity of their nature. And so in the case of men who are aiming at perfection, it is not enough not to be angry with men. For we recollect that when we were living in solitude a feeling of irritation would creep over us
- against our pen because it was too large or too small;
- against our penknife when it cut badly and with a blunt edge what we wanted cut;
- and against a flint if by chance when we were rather late and hurrying to the reading, a spark of fire flashed out,
so that we could not remove and get rid of our perturbation of mind except by cursing the senseless matter, or at least the devil.

Wherefore for a method of perfection it will not be of any use for there to be a dearth of men against whom our anger might be roused: since, if patience has not already been acquired, the feelings of passion which still dwell in our hearts can equally well spend themselves on dumb things and paltry objects, and not allow us to gain a continuous state of peacefulness, or to be free from our remaining faults: unless perhaps we think that some advantage and a sort of cure may be gained for our passion from the fact that inanimate and speechless things cannot possibly reply to our curses and rage, nor provoke our ungovernable temper to break out into a worse madness of passion.


Chapter 20.

Of the way in which anger should be banished according to the gospel.

Wherefore if we wish to gain the substance of that divine reward of which it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God," Matthew 5:8 we ought not only to banish it from our actions, but entirely to root it out from our inmost soul. For it will not be of any good to have checked anger in words, and not to have shown it in deeds, if God, from whom the secrets of the heart are not hid, sees that it remains in the secret recesses of our bosom. For the word of the gospel bids us destroy the roots of our faults rather than the fruits; for these, when the incitements are all removed, will certainly not put forth shoots any more; and so the mind will be able to continue in all patience and holiness, when this anger has been removed, not from the surface of acts and deeds, but from the very innermost thoughts. And, therefore to avoid the commission of murder, anger and hatred are cut off, without which the crime of murder cannot possibly be committed. For "whosoever is angry with his brother, is in danger of the judgment;" and "whosoever hates his brother is a murderer;" 1 John 3:15 viz., because in his heart he desires to kill him, whose blood we know that he has certainly not shed among men with his own hand or with a weapon; yet, owing to his burst of anger, he is declared to be a murderer by God, who renders to each man, not merely for the result of his actions, but for his purpose and desires and wishes, either a reward or a punishment; according to that which He Himself says through the prophet: "But I come that I may gather them together with all nations and tongues;" Isaiah 66:18 and again: "Their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men." Romans 2:15-16


Chapter 22.

The remedies by which we can root out anger from our hearts.

Wherefore the athlete of Christ who strives lawfully ought thoroughly to root out the feeling of wrath. And it will be a sure remedy for this disease, if
- in the first place we make up our mind that we ought never to be angry at all, whether for good or bad reasons: as we know that we shall at once lose the light of discernment, and the security of good counsel, and our very uprightness, and the temperate character of righteousness, if the main light of our heart has been darkened by its shadows:
- next, that the purity of our soul will presently be clouded, and that it cannot possibly be made a temple for the Holy Ghost while the spirit of anger resides in us;
- lastly, that we should consider that we ought never to pray, nor pour out our prayer to God, while we are angry.

And above all, having before our eyes the uncertain condition of mankind, we should realize daily that we are soon to depart from the body, and that our continence and chastity, our renunciation of all our possessions, our contempt of wealth, our efforts in fastings and vigils will not help us at all, if solely on account of anger and hatred eternal punishments are awarded to us by the judge of the world.

[Chestertonian]

havent been able to read every one of these posts,but considering the fewness of the saved it is no wonder there are so few in heaven.  I have gone from imaagining heaven as a big party where everyone is joyful to an empty party room that no one is allowed into because no one is holy enough to get in, except for Our Lady, the saints, Elijah, moses and a few others.

i get confused between "feeling" angry and 'being" angry.  Also irritability.  if feeling angry is sinful then i am most certainly going to hell.  lots of things cause Irritability--medication... I couldgo off my seizure medication but then itend to get really ragey after a seizure so it's like a lose/lose situation.  Plus the med is for nerve pain too and pain makes me more irritable (although st francis had his eyes literally burned off and he was singing hymns the whole time--so it sounds like that is the standard god holds us to)

in light of this, it seems like it would be particularly hard for men to get to heaven as we have a tendency to convert other emotions into anger.  So grief gets converted to anger, hurt turns into anger, sadness gets converted to anger, fear gets converted to anger, because it is not OK to experience these things, only anger.  Yet anger is sinful, yet it seems that grief, pain, sadness, and fear are not sinful.  Although it sounds like some saints do say that anxiety and grief can be sinful.   If anything it seems like the church wants us to be perpetually suffering and sorrowful (but also at the same time always joyful and grateful for thesorrow). 


sometimes i just wish i could take my brain out and throw it against he wall and stomp on it. 

[MundaCorMeum]

sometimes i just wish i could take my brain out and throw it against he wall and stomp on it.

Word

[Carleendiane]

First,  singing while having our eyes burned out or joking while being roasted alive are exceptions, not the standard God expects. Those were saints with graces given for the conversion of others.

Secondly there are only a few that go straight to heaven, because of their sanctity upon their death. Heaven will have countless purgated souls in it.

Thirdly, anger caused by meds, withdraw, PTSD, medical conditions, just happens, with little to no degree of consent. Reflexive anger has not been consented to. Emotional problems are taken into consideration when judging culpability.

As anger builds, and we sense it building, our rational mind, will or will not consent to its building force. When our anger is building, in a person that has no medical or psychological issues, if you do not cut it off, but let it continue, again, fully aware of its presence and also that it's building...if you blow a gasket, you have allowed or consented to it reaching a high point. You say or do something that hurts the one you have directed it at. You've committed a sin with consent. Mortal, or venial, your confessor will help you discern. Right? Or...wrong?  If wrong, help me to understand what I have wrong.

[Non Nobis]

Chestertonian,

Don't stomp on your brain but try to let it rest.

Trust your priest and his thinking (are you still emailing a priest?  How often do you see one?).  If you don't have regular access to a priest, then instead of only trusting your OWN thinking it would probably be better for you to trust even OURS just a little (there is some wisdom here).

Please answer us, question what we say, don't just take us deeper into your own dark thoughts and strange conclusions. It sometimes doesn't seem like you are listening...

[Miriam_M]

By itself, moderate anger is a natural reaction to many situations.  As with the other passions, the key is to consider whether it's ordered or disordered.  Feeling angry and even taking action (for example, by way of a formal complaint filed, by way of a lawsuit initiated) over injustice, unfair treatment, etc. would be most of the time an ordered reaction.  Feeling angry and expressing restrained anger at a friend, relative, co-worker, supervisor, etc., for not communicating about something essential, for taking something of ours without our permission etc., would be other examples of anger which are just and tempered.

Anger which is disordered or excessive would be:
1. verbal abuse, even over an injustice;
2. physical violence (obviously) and/or damage to the other's property, including over an objective injustice;
3. the taking of revenge or planning of revenge against the object of our anger
4. a serious wish for harm to befall the object of our anger, even if we have no part ourselves in acting upon that wish

Anger for illegitimate reasons, or which springs from another vice (envy, lust, avarice, pride) is also disordered; for example, we have no "right" to be angry that someone else was honored or privileged even if subjectively we believe we are at least as worthy (pride) or that our neighbor won the lottery (avarice, envy).  But in general, this kind of reaction would be venial, not mortal.

It could become mortal, depending on the intensity of our reaction (see 1-4) and depending on the vice involved.  Being furious that an adulterous affair we were involved in ended because the marriage repaired itself would be an example of a compounded mortal sin (disordered anger + lust). 


1 through 4 are mortal sins.
Becoming temporarily immoderate in our anger -- but not extreme -- just not as self-controlled as we should be -- would be a venial sin.  Most of us know when we've flown off the handle or owe someone an apology, yet have not escalated the situation out of control.

[Jayne]

I have been wondering about this question quite a bit lately.  Unlike Chestertonian, I do not have the excuse of illness/PTSD/medications and I have been furious at one of my relatives.  I have disliked/avoided this person for decades, but things were done around my parents final illnesses and deaths that left me raging.

Anger which is disordered or excessive would be:
1. verbal abuse, even over an injustice;
2. physical violence (obviously) and/or damage to the other's property, including over an objective injustice;
3. the taking of revenge or planning of revenge against the object of our anger
4. a serious wish for harm to befall the object of our anger, even if we have no part ourselves in acting upon that wish

There is a possibility that this person is suicidal.  My reaction is "Fine with me."  The thought of this person being dead does not bother me and I think it would make the world a better place.  Would this count as #4 above?

I did go to Confession and received helpful advice from the priest.  I am, however, also interested in thoughts from people here.  I also thought it might be worthwhile letting Chestertonian know that he is not the only one who deals with such things. 

You want inner darkness; I can do inner darkness.  Don't assume that I, as a woman, do not deal with angry and violent impulses.  I have smashes walls and furniture in anger.

[Miriam_M]

I have been wondering about this question quite a bit lately.  Unlike Chestertonian, I do not have the excuse of illness/PTSD/medications and I have been furious at one of my relatives.  I have disliked/avoided this person for decades, but things were done around my parents final illnesses and deaths that left me raging.

Anger which is disordered or excessive would be:
1. verbal abuse, even over an injustice;
2. physical violence (obviously) and/or damage to the other's property, including over an objective injustice;
3. the taking of revenge or planning of revenge against the object of our anger
4. a serious wish for harm to befall the object of our anger, even if we have no part ourselves in acting upon that wish

There is a possibility that this person is suicidal.  My reaction is "Fine with me."  The thought of this person being dead does not bother me and I think it would make the world a better place.  Would this count as #4 above?

I did go to Confession and received helpful advice from the priest.  I am, however, also interested in thoughts from people here.  I also thought it might be worthwhile letting Chestertonian know that he is not the only one who deals with such things. 

You want inner darkness; I can do inner darkness.  Don't assume that I, as a woman, do not deal with angry and violent impulses.  I have smashes walls and furniture in anger.

This is a reasonable question, Jayne, but a lay person is not qualified to override "helpful advice from a priest," especially in the confessional, since it is a sacrament and we believe that the Holy Spirit is at work within it, and that the priest speaks in persona Christi.  Now, sometimes a priest may give inadequate advice (even if helpful) because he's having an "off" day or because I, the penitent, have done an inadequate job giving him sufficient information for him to render a moral judgment.

A priest who is experienced and a careful listener will respond respectfully to the penitent's own divulging of his or her conscience, and take the penitent at her/his word.   This is a very, very important aspect of confession:  The priest is to regard seriously the penitent's own impulses and "grading" of sin --assuming that it is not true that scruples are involved, which tends to become clear pretty quickly if so.  Only we know our inner voice; if we feel and say to him that we believe our anger was excessive (characterized by rage), he is to take us at our word. Keep in mind that some offenses would naturally cause almost any person to react with rage, and thus it is possible that the priest correctly saw mitigating circumstances in the confession of great anger.  I wasn't there in your confessional. 

Let's put it this way, with regard to your admission that you wouldn't have cared if the other person were suicidal.  Here is the way I would confess that, but again, I don't know the level of the other person's offense:

"Father, I sinned by expressing enormous anger at this person because of a grave injustice he did to me/others.  I justified my rage to myself because of his actions [or series of injustices], but I committed my own grave sin by... [breaking furniture/hurling hateful insults, cherishing my extreme anger].  in addition, I felt in my heart that I wouldn't mind if he were dead -- if he killed himself; I willed this thought."  (If I had willed a revengeful thought as well -- not just that I would be indifferent to his death or calamity, but that I would relish his death or other harm, and be happy to contribute to it, I would confess that, too.)

[Miriam_M]

Adding this:

If I had prayed for the person to be dead, I would also have confessed that.  I would have confessed however I had prayed for that person, because that disclosure could also help the priest in his spiritual counsel.  Thus:

"I have even prayed for this person to die, within the justice of God for the person's series of great offenses [against people weaker than him, dependent on him -- if true]."

The priest might respond in this way:
"We should always bring great anger toward someone to prayer. But here's how we should pray:  Lord, I cannot help but feel rage at X for what he has done [to self, others].  My passions and my feelings make me want to kill this person in my heart, but I know that your justice is perfect and mine is not.  Please give me the grace to surrender to your justice in your due time and do not let me compound the hurt that X has already brought into my world.  I know that you desire conversion of heart and conversion of life for every sinner, including the most depraved.  Share with me your pity toward X, your will for his conversion, and help me will your mercy for him.  I am but a weak creature inclined toward my passions; with your grace I can surrender my hurt to your Sacred Heart."

(Probably a longer version than he would give you; my confessor would give one "this long," but he would talk it out over several sentences and even wait for my response between sentences.)

[Jayne]

Lord, I cannot help but feel rage at X for what he has done [to self, others].  My passions and my feelings make me want to kill this person in my heart, but I know that your justice is perfect and mine is not.  Please give me the grace to surrender to your justice in your due time and do not let me compound the hurt that X has already brought into my world.  I know that you desire conversion of heart and conversion of life for every sinner, including the most depraved.  Share with me your pity toward X, your will for his conversion, and help me will your mercy for him.  I am but a weak creature inclined toward my passions; with your grace I can surrender my hurt to your Sacred Heart."

I really like this prayer.