Hello everyone! I wanted to get your feelings about something unusual (but quite lovely) that took place at a CMRI mass.
I was growing increasingly frustrated at my parish, which celebrates both NO and tridentine masses (that's the topic of another post: sloppy confessions, laughing altar boys and disrespectful parishioners); so I decided to drive 30 additional miles and attend a CMRI mass, and it was wonderful! But what I found really surprising is what the faithful did before receiving the Sacred Host. Instead of getting out of the pews and walking to the communion rail, they knelt on the floor and proceeded to the communion rail on their knees. I found that beautiful, and it seems to make sense (kneeling just seems to be the proper position), but I was curious to know whether some of you had witnessed that practice before? What are your thoughts about this?
God Bless You all
Not sure what that was all about but that is not a practice of the Catholic Church, never has been for at least the last 1000 years far as I know. Actually, it does not even make any sense - if you think about it, it seems if they were going to walk around on their knees that it'd make better sense to do that on the way back to their pews, after have received Our Lord. But we don't do that for communion. Perhaps you saw people genuflecting on two knees and not walking on their knees?
If there are more than 8 or 10 people or so, it would take a very, very long time for communion if everyone proceeded to the communion rail on their knees.
Hello Stubborn. About 50 people, I did not count as you can imagine. The first pew is right in front of the communion rail; these people didn't even have to walk there. People from the next rows lined up on their knees and knee-walked to the rail once it was their turn. It went pretty fast actually. They walked back to their pews though. Interesting.
I absolutely know that my trad priest would not approve of the practice at all.
Very weird practice.
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Sounds more like the KneeMRI, amirite?!
(*shuffles on floor with knees*) Nope, that's weird on its own.
That is a bit bizzare to me. At the CMRI parish I was once at, this never happened as far as I knew. And this chapel was under Bishop Pivarunas' personal care.
I've never seen this done, and I regularly attend CMRI chapels. I'd be interested to know where this chapel was.
I have sent the OP a PM with a link to another forum where people are discussing this thread.
This may be obvious aND a no brainer..but what does CMRI stand for?
Quote from: Carleendiane on November 18, 2017, 01:37:59 PM
This may be obvious aND a no brainer..but what does CMRI stand for?
Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae (Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen).
Quote from: kayla_veronica on November 18, 2017, 08:54:46 AM
I've never seen this done, and I regularly attend CMRI chapels. I'd be interested to know where this chapel was.
I am guessing that the OP did not see what he thinks he saw, either that or it was not a CRMI chapel. I know that sounds crazy, but walking on our knees for communion is plain NO/Pharisaical far as I can see. By that, I mean our focus is supposed to be on one thing and only one thing - Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament which we are about to receive into our souls, not put on a pity show of penance for each other.
I assume that the CMRI is like pretty much every other trad chapel and has confession before Mass, certainly the priest did not impose walking on knees to receive communion as penance for the whole congregation.
I can see the ones in the front pews being already so close to the communion rail that they maybe only need to take a half step or so, but that's it.
OP must be mistaken somehow. This seems too odd.
Quote from: Gardener on November 17, 2017, 09:47:51 PM
Sounds more like the KneeMRI, amirite?!
Was that a knee-jerk reaction? ;D
It's not traditional for Mass, and for that reason alone shouldn't be at a TLM.
But don't people do this in some pilgrimages? I think I heard of it from someone who recently returned from a pilgrimage in Europe.
And if it were done in a Mass, perhaps it would be like saying "Lord I am not worthy" before Communion, but not afterwards, because afterwards you have God within, united with you, and as such are worthy (in some respect; by God's gift of Himself). It seems it could be well intended.
It does seem excessive for most people... And it is definitely not traditional for Mass.
I second Kayla Veronica. Been to many of their chapels and know all their priests. Like someone else said, they must have gone to some other chapel not affiliated with the CMRI.
If there is ever any walking on knees, it has to do with the tradition of a pilgrimage or visit to a shrine, such as many who visit the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City.
THIS:
Quote from: Non Nobis on November 18, 2017, 10:37:45 PM
It's not traditional for Mass, and for that reason alone shouldn't be at a TLM.
QuoteBut don't people do this in some pilgrimages?
I have only seen it in ethnic settings, such as a Mexican Good Friday procession. I have also seen stationary kneeling not on kneelers at Church by some Filipinos, for example, from time to time.
Quote from: Miriam_M on November 19, 2017, 03:01:30 AMI have also seen stationary kneeling not on kneelers at Church by some Filipinos, for example, from time to time.
The OPs username is tradi
phil which might indicate some connection to the Philippines. Apparently there are some CMRI Mass centers there. I did a bit of googling around and apparently this is an existing custom in that country of Catholics in general, not just CMRI.
It is not surprising that those who have only attended CMRI Masses in US would not have encountered it and that it would seem weird to people from cultures that don't do anything like this.
I am not sure to what extent a local custom may be incorporated into the Mass like this. If the priest is allowing it, I'm guessing it is permissible.
Quote from: Jayne on November 19, 2017, 04:06:40 AM
I am not sure to what extent a local custom may be incorporated into the Mass like this. If the priest is allowing it, I'm guessing it is permissible.
Thank you for the information and possible explanation. However, "permissible" is not necessarily advisable or prudent -- i.e., in keeping with the authentic Latin Mass. There are lots of Filipinos who attend our apostolate TLM's, yet --
again -- our priest would not approve of the practice, let alone recommend it. The TLM is not about multiculturalism; that's what the N.O. loves to do.
;)
Quote from: Miriam_M on November 19, 2017, 11:02:41 AM
The TLM is not about multiculturalism
Strictly speaking, no.
But there have been approved instances of some liturgical inculturation in the past. Especially in China and Africa.
If this is a case of a priest allowing a permissible local custom, I do not feel qualified to second guess his prudential judgement on the matter.
Well, that's nice.
I do feel qualified. ;)
I am not qualified to say whether or not you are qualified. :)
Seems a little strange.
Insert something witty here + Bee's Knees.
Quote from: Bonaventure on November 20, 2017, 11:40:19 AM
Seems a little strange.
Could you please ask your wife if she has seen anything like this in the Philippines? I was actually just thinking about you, wishing you were around to ask that question.
Quote from: Jayne on November 20, 2017, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on November 20, 2017, 11:40:19 AM
Seems a little strange.
Could you please ask your wife if she has seen anything like this in the Philippines? I was actually just thinking about you, wishing you were around to ask that question.
I will!
CMRI is a cult. I would avoid them.
I think that most of us trads get accused of belonging to a cult at some point. That might make an interesting topic for its own thread, but would derail this one.
I walked up the "Scala Sancta" stairs in Rome, whilst kneeling.
Quote from: Older Salt on November 21, 2017, 08:17:55 AM
I walked up the "Scala Sancta" stairs in Rome, whilst kneeling.
...right, but that's a location where one expects that.
Quote from: Santantonio on November 20, 2017, 03:43:09 PM
CMRI is a cult. I would avoid them.
Eh, that's a little too far.
Quote from: Kaesekopf on November 23, 2017, 01:40:40 AM
Quote from: Santantonio on November 20, 2017, 03:43:09 PM
CMRI is a cult. I would avoid them.
Eh, that's a little too far.
I don't know about them being a cult, but my only experience with them was very bad. It was a discussion and they were extremely nasty and mean to such a degree that I wished I had never met them. It was horrible.
"I cannot consider that a credible statement as no location is offered. Being in touch with their leadership allows me to believe that there is something wrongful in the association with the CMRI or a false statement or it happened during the Shukart era." From a friend of mine
Quote from: Sophia3 on November 25, 2017, 06:38:21 PM
I don't know about them being a cult, but my only experience with them was very bad. It was a discussion and they were extremely nasty and mean to such a degree that I wished I had never met them. It was horrible.
I'm so sorry to hear that, Sophia ... here, have a hug. You are safe with us. :grouphug:
At the church in Steubenville (with the very odd painting) a whole line of souls waiting for Confession waited and inched around on their knees. I've also seen Opus Dei people make a point of bowing their heads as the priest processes in or out. Then sometimes a bunch of people will genuflect at each Glory Be during the Rosary.
The priest should gently correct mis-applications of zeal as they occur, IMO.
I have heard that Europeans, particularly those in Latin America, are in the habit of entering and leaving a church on their knees. At Marytown shrine near Chicago, I have seen Hispanic visitors do this regularly.
Michael Voris did a video about this a decade ago. He had travelled to Europe--may have been Spain--and saw them doing it.
The CMRI parish is Sedevacantist, FYI.
Quote from: Bonaventure on November 20, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
Quote from: Jayne on November 20, 2017, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on November 20, 2017, 11:40:19 AM
Seems a little strange.
Could you please ask your wife if she has seen anything like this in the Philippines? I was actually just thinking about you, wishing you were around to ask that question.
I will!
Finally got around to asking her. She says it's pretty common at shrines, but not for communion, but to make a petition.
Hmm, some interesting notes here.
At the diocesen EF I assist on Sundays and holy days, a lot of the laity genuflect and make the sign of the Cross during the procession before and after Mass as the crucifix passes our pews. Most will also bow as the priest passes.
I always assumed this was a traditional custom. Is it only a regional thing ?
Also, I have noticed a few Hispanics enter my parish and approach the Tabernacle down the center aisle on their knees. Once they're past the first pew, they will remain there in prayer and adoration for a few minutes. I've seen this during the day and also at night outside of Mass times. My parish is open 24 hours a day year round due to the Perpetual Adoration Chapel.
I never really saw that as odd.
There is a video of an interview of sorts, of Cardinal Arinze and if I recall correctly when asked about CITH, he said we should crawl on the floor approaching the Blessed Sacrament for Holy Communion. I've never seen anyone do that but I get the gist of his point.
Quote from: Acolyte on March 02, 2018, 02:07:29 AM
Hmm, some interesting notes here.
At the diocesen EF I assist on Sundays and holy days, a lot of the laity genuflect and make the sign of the Cross during the procession before and after Mass as the crucifix passes our pews. Most will also bow as the priest passes.
I always assumed this was a traditional custom. Is it only a regional thing ?
Aye, I am currently under the impression that it's a regional practice.
Traditional is to genuflect when crossing the tabernacle when Our Lord is present, bow when crossing the tabernacle when He is not present and genuflect while making the sign of the cross with holy water upon entering the Church.
Genuflect and bow on both knees toward the Blessed Sacrament when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed if you must walk at all during that time.
Always bow your head at the Holy Name of Jesus, including during Mass or sermon.
The servers bow to the priest and vise versa during the Mass at the Gospel and after the servers pour water and wine into his chalice and after washing of the hands, as well as when incensing him and a few other occasions during Mass.
Not sure why people bow to the priest when he walks by, perhaps just an act of piety but seems a bit odd to me for some reason.
But we don't normally genuflect to the crucifix, only to Our Lord in the blessed sacrament.
I've heard that we are not supposed to genuflect while blessing ourselves with the holy water. Not sure why. Just a guess, but, maybe because we're not yet in the chapel, so genuflecting would be a bit unnecessary? Or, maybe it's for practical reasons (to stop and genuflect is to block the doorway, yet the doorway tends to be congested enough as it is).
At my parish, the people do cross themselves and genuflect during the
asperges me when the priest sprinkles them.
(Another thing I've heard is that if you are going to the high Mass, there is no need to bless yourself with holy water when you enter the church. Because the asperges me covers it.
And I have also heard that if you've received Communion, you should not use holy water when leaving the church. The logic is that the holy water can do nothing which Christ has not already done for you in Communion, so, if you've received Communion, holy water afterwards is superfluous.)Quote from: Stubborn on March 02, 2018, 07:35:53 AM
Not sure why people bow to the priest when he walks by, perhaps just an act of piety but seems a bit odd to me for some reason.
I think out of reverence for the dignity of his office. (But you bring up a good point, because nobody really bows to the priest outside of Mass...)
Or maybe it's because the priest stands as a symbol of Christ. So by reverencing the priest, we are reverencing Christ.
Bowing toward priest as he passes by in procession -- Yes, in deference to his office, particularly as he makes his way to and from the sanctuary. Also, he is a mystical representative of Christ the King and Priest, sharing in some sense in that office. When an earthly monarch passes, or one acting in his stead, proper honor is rendered.
One of the FSSP priests assigned to Latin America was giving a fund-raising sermon, and he talked about the piety of the Mexican people. He said he told one parishioner that coming back to the US, he would have to get used to people not kissing his hand. The parishioner blanched and said, "Fr., it is not your hand we kiss, but the hand of Christ!" His follow up comment to us during his sermon was something along the lines of, "Talk about the student teaching the master... boy, was I embarrassed."
Bowing head at the invocation of the Trinity, Jesus, and Mary -- https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/bowing-at-holy-names-at-mass-and-elsewhere
QuoteThe custom of bowing the head at the mention of Jesus' name was formally written into law at the Second Council of Lyons, A.D. 1274, convened by Pope Gregory X:
Those who assemble in church should extol with an act of special reverence that Name which is above every Name, than which no other under Heaven has been given to people, in which believers must be saved, the Name, that is, of Jesus Christ, Who will save His people from their sins. Each should fulfil in himself that which is written for all, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow; whenever that glorious Name is recalled, especially during the sacred Mysteries of the Mass, everyone should bow the knees of his heart, which he can do even by a bow of his head.
Genuflecting when crossing center line of tabernacle/re-entering pew, just after receiving Holy Communion -- don't do it. Anyone with a military background will immediately understand why, when explained in the context of respect rendered to a Superior.
The reason we bow to toward the altar, if the Blessed Sacrament is not in repose, is to honor the saint whose relics are (should be) embedded in the altar.
The reason we single-knee genuflect towards the tabernacle when the Blessed Sacrament is in repose is to honor Christ present; double genuflection when exposed is in recognition of His exposed presence.
When He is contained within us, to bow or genuflect is to belittle/diminish His Presence in us. Similarly, in the military, if an officer walks in the proper response is to come to attention in recognition of his rank.
Example: A bunch of privates and NCOs are sitting around and the platoon leader (generally a LT) comes in: senior person in room calls room to attention. But if another LT comes in, you do not come to attention because that would be to say the first LT (note, primary, not 1LT) is somehow lower than the secondary LT. However, if the company commander, a CPT, walks in, the room again comes to attention, including the LT.
So, to genuflect or bow after having just received Communion is to literally say that He who is within you is less than He to whom you are genuflecting, which is absurd.
While one is in retention of the Blessed Sacrament, post-Holy Communion, for about 10-20 minutes (depending on the thickness and amount of accidents in the Host),
they are a Tabernacle (hey, Messianic fulfillment of one of the 7 feasts of Israel anyone!?). This is also why one should stay in prayer for about 15 minutes from the time of receiving Communion.
Holy water superfluous post-Communion -- I would not count this as superfluous. For one, one of the effects of Holy Communion, if not received while in Mortal Sin, is to not only give grace, but to purge one of venial sins. As such, one's state of grace is heightened. Now, holy water is a sacramental and sacramentals operate under the category of
ex opere operantis vs that of the Sacraments which are
ex opere operato. Because of the fact that, assuming the proper conditions, post-Communion is absolutely the best time to use any sacramental due to the reality of the person being in a heightened state of grace. One's prayers are more efficacious, one's good works are more efficacious, and in general, one is simply more disposed to "pile on the grace" so to speak. It is not contra the action of Christ in you, but in conjunction with Him.
Genuflecting while blessing oneself with Holy Water -- not sure about everywhere, but of all the parishes I've been to, I do not recall one where the holy water font is outside the chapel. One enters and the fonts are immediately present. As such, one is generally in view of the tabernacle. Hence, genuflecting (offering respect) in conjunction with use of a sacramental seems, to me, to be a salutary (though not necessary) gesture.
Not blessing with holy water due to impending Asperges Me -- um, what? That's like saying you don't need to pick up the dollar on the ground because the other dollar on the ground is 15 feet away. Pick up both! Get rich! And besides, using that logic, why even have the
Asperges... if in less than an hour you will receive Holy Communion? Do people actually logic tree their ideas or just engage in pious, yet stupid, nonsense?
Quote from: Gardener on March 02, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
Holy water superfluous post-Communion -- I would not count this as superfluous. For one, one of the effects of Holy Communion, if not received while in Mortal Sin, is to not only give grace, but to purge one of venial sins. As such, one's state of grace is heightened. Now, holy water is a sacramental and sacramentals operate under the category of ex opere operantis vs that of the Sacraments which are ex opere operato. Because of the fact that, assuming the proper conditions, post-Communion is absolutely the best time to use any sacramental due to the reality of the person being in a heightened state of grace. One's prayers are more efficacious, one's good works are more efficacious, and in general, one is simply more disposed to "pile on the grace" so to speak. It is not contra the action of Christ in you, but in conjunction with Him.
I stand corrected.
Quote
Genuflecting while blessing oneself with Holy Water -- not sure about everywhere, but of all the parishes I've been to, I do not recall one where the holy water font is outside the chapel. One enters and the fonts are immediately present. As such, one is generally in view of the tabernacle. Hence, genuflecting (offering respect) in conjunction with use of a sacramental seems, to me, to be a salutary (though not necessary) gesture.
I suppose it varies from place to place, but with most of the chapels I've been to, the holy water has always been kept in the narthex, which really isn't "in" the chapel (edit - sorry, what I mean is, it's not in the nave).
St. Marys did keep the holy water in the chapel, but that chapel was huge (and the entrances were all off to the sides, not in front of the central aisle).
Quote
Not blessing with holy water due to impending Asperges Me -- um, what? That's like saying you don't need to pick up the dollar on the ground because the other dollar on the ground is 15 feet away. Pick up both! Get rich! And besides, using that logic, why even have the Asperges... if in less than an hour you will receive Holy Communion? Do people actually logic tree their ideas or just engage in pious, yet stupid, nonsense?
Haha, good point. (Though the Asperges holy water is penitential, so it serves to prepare you for Communion...)
Quote from: Prayerful on November 18, 2017, 06:25:24 PM
OP must be mistaken somehow. This seems too odd.
Some of the old timers still keeping the Schuckhardt Era ways? They used to be made to walk out backwards so as to not turn their backs on Our Lord in The Tabernacle..
While at the Catholic Identity Conference there was a Mass with Bp. Athanasius Schneider at a church in Steubenville, OH. A number of apparent students did that with the Confessional line: cringe-worthy. And the Opus Dei souls around here make a bit of a show of bowing as the priest (yikes what's the term when he comes or leaves the Altar?)
So, I tend to believe OP.