So what will it mean? St JP2-St.John23?

[Greg]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Indeed. How much longer can they sit on the fence and continue to have their Pope and eat him too? If canonizations USED to be infallible, but now are not infallible, you have a defective Church. If  Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic and John XXIII and JPII are saints then that means that not only can save your soul in the Novus Ordo, but you can become a saint through the Novus Ordo as well.

If Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic, then that means that the SSPX and the Sedes are wrong in what they are doing. They need to find an indult Mass to go to or the Fraternity of Saint Peter or ICK or the Franciscans of....oh well never mind that; anyway go to a TLM within the Conciliar structure and accept Vatican II.

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position. Either Vatican II substantially altered the doctrine, worship and discipline of the Catholic Church or it didn't. Either the religion of Vatican II is Catholic or it isn't.

It clearly isn't Catholic if we judge people by their fruits and beliefs.  Walk into any Novus Ordo church and ask them about contraception, homosexual attraction, sex before marriage, annulments, divorced people receiving the sacraments, original sin, baptism, purgatory and hell and they have a very different set of beliefs.

Heck, just watch them receiving communion.  Tells you ALL you need to know.

It is clearly a different religion by any practical measure.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

[Landless Laborer]

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position.

There is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics. 

[Petrie]

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position.

There is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics.

All of the hierarchy for decades has misinterpreted it?  Really?  It's much more likely that VII is not valid and everyone has interpreted it exactly as it should be.

[Landless Laborer]

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position.

There is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics.

All of the hierarchy for decades has misinterpreted it?  Really?  It's much more likely that VII is not valid and everyone has interpreted it exactly as it should be.

So you are saying it is more likely the Holy Ghost failed, but the human element remained faithful.  I'll take the other side. 

[Petrie]

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position.

There is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics.

All of the hierarchy for decades has misinterpreted it?  Really?  It's much more likely that VII is not valid and everyone has interpreted it exactly as it should be.

So you are saying it is more likely the Holy Ghost failed, but the human element remained faithful.  I'll take the other side.

Who said the human element didn't listen to God's Will at VII?

Edit:  I keep re-reading that and I'm not sure I worded it properly.  Basically, I'm trying to say that the human element failed at VII by not listening to God's Will.  The same way I think the Cardinals didn't listen to God's Will when electing Francis.

[Mysterium Fidei]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Indeed. How much longer can they sit on the fence and continue to have their Pope and eat him too? If canonizations USED to be infallible, but now are not infallible, you have a defective Church. If  Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic and John XXIII and JPII are saints then that means that not only can save your soul in the Novus Ordo, but you can become a saint through the Novus Ordo as well.

If Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic, then that means that the SSPX and the Sedes are wrong in what they are doing. They need to find an indult Mass to go to or the Fraternity of Saint Peter or ICK or the Franciscans of....oh well never mind that; anyway go to a TLM within the Conciliar structure and accept Vatican II.

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position. Either Vatican II substantially altered the doctrine, worship and discipline of the Catholic Church or it didn't. Either the religion of Vatican II is Catholic or it isn't.

It clearly isn't Catholic if we judge people by their fruits and beliefs.  Walk into any Novus Ordo church and ask them about contraception, homosexual attraction, sex before marriage, annulments, divorced people receiving the sacraments, original sin, baptism, purgatory and hell and they have a very different set of beliefs.

Heck, just watch them receiving communion.  Tells you ALL you need to know.

It is clearly a different religion by any practical measure.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Exactly. This is just further evidence that the Vatican II religion isn't Catholic. The result of Catholics following the Vatican II religion is that they lose the Faith. The vast majority of Novus Ordo "Catholics" are in fact heretics and have lost the Catholic Faith as a result of following the Vatican II religion.

[Petrie]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Indeed. How much longer can they sit on the fence and continue to have their Pope and eat him too? If canonizations USED to be infallible, but now are not infallible, you have a defective Church. If  Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic and John XXIII and JPII are saints then that means that not only can save your soul in the Novus Ordo, but you can become a saint through the Novus Ordo as well.

If Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic, then that means that the SSPX and the Sedes are wrong in what they are doing. They need to find an indult Mass to go to or the Fraternity of Saint Peter or ICK or the Franciscans of....oh well never mind that; anyway go to a TLM within the Conciliar structure and accept Vatican II.

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position. Either Vatican II substantially altered the doctrine, worship and discipline of the Catholic Church or it didn't. Either the religion of Vatican II is Catholic or it isn't.

It clearly isn't Catholic if we judge people by their fruits and beliefs.  Walk into any Novus Ordo church and ask them about contraception, homosexual attraction, sex before marriage, annulments, divorced people receiving the sacraments, original sin, baptism, purgatory and hell and they have a very different set of beliefs.

Heck, just watch them receiving communion.  Tells you ALL you need to know.

It is clearly a different religion by any practical measure.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Exactly. This is just further evidence that the Vatican II religion isn't Catholic. The result of Catholics following the Vatican II religion is that they lose the Faith. The vast majority of Novus Ordo "Catholics" are in fact heretics and have lost the Catholic Faith as a result of following the Vatican II religion.

Not to be nitpicky, but I don't think this is about "losing" the Faith.  It's about never having it in the first place...at least for the most recent generation and new converts.

[Mysterium Fidei]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Indeed. How much longer can they sit on the fence and continue to have their Pope and eat him too? If canonizations USED to be infallible, but now are not infallible, you have a defective Church. If  Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic and John XXIII and JPII are saints then that means that not only can save your soul in the Novus Ordo, but you can become a saint through the Novus Ordo as well.

If Francis is the Pope and Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are Catholic, then that means that the SSPX and the Sedes are wrong in what they are doing. They need to find an indult Mass to go to or the Fraternity of Saint Peter or ICK or the Franciscans of....oh well never mind that; anyway go to a TLM within the Conciliar structure and accept Vatican II.

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position. Either Vatican II substantially altered the doctrine, worship and discipline of the Catholic Church or it didn't. Either the religion of Vatican II is Catholic or it isn't.

It clearly isn't Catholic if we judge people by their fruits and beliefs.  Walk into any Novus Ordo church and ask them about contraception, homosexual attraction, sex before marriage, annulments, divorced people receiving the sacraments, original sin, baptism, purgatory and hell and they have a very different set of beliefs.

Heck, just watch them receiving communion.  Tells you ALL you need to know.

It is clearly a different religion by any practical measure.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Exactly. This is just further evidence that the Vatican II religion isn't Catholic. The result of Catholics following the Vatican II religion is that they lose the Faith. The vast majority of Novus Ordo "Catholics" are in fact heretics and have lost the Catholic Faith as a result of following the Vatican II religion.

Not to be nitpicky, but I don't think this is about "losing" the Faith.  It's about never having it in the first place...at least for the most recent generation and new converts.

True, for the younger generations that have been brought up completely in the Vatican II religion (those that have not left and actually still go to church) they have never known the Catholic Faith and are following a counterfeit religion, falsely claiming to be Catholic.

[voxxpopulisuxx]

Honestly, I can't process either of them becoming saints. I hope that something will happen to prevent the whole thing. It will cause such a rupture, I fear for all of our faiths.

I contend this is the whole point...You think Satan doesnt know what the Trads are up to. he will divide and conquer till were back in the catacombs

[Roland Deschain]

I welcome these "canonizations." Let the wheat be separated from the chaff. Let the True Church emerge from the eclipse and let the false Vatican II church completely remove its mask.

Nothing will change for me on a practical level; but I will then be convinced that the suspicions I already have a Francis' papal claim are justified.

Sede Vacante.

[Bonaventure]

However, if Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are not Catholic, then you must necessarily reject those that promulgated it and continue to promulgate it, as not being Catholic. I just don't see a middle position.

There is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics.

So the laity can interpret it correctly, but the conciliar clergymen and popes and hierarchy cannot, and are heretics?

Looks like Luther was right after all, with that type of thinking.

[Bonaventure]

Sede Vacante.

YEah.

[james03]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Or a really tough day for sedevacantists if the Lord steps in and prevents it. 

Argentina, Thailand, and Ukraine are getting really ugly.  I still don't think it happens, we'll see.  JPII's gay lover could come out of the closet, or his illegitimate son.  Or WWIII kicks off.  Or Francis dies.  We will see.

[voxxpopulisuxx]

A tough day for sedeplenists.

Or a really tough day for sedevacantists if the Lord steps in and prevents it. 

Argentina, Thailand, and Ukraine are getting really ugly.  I still don't think it happens, we'll see.  JPII's gay lover could come out of the closet, or his illegitimate son.  Or WWIII kicks off.  Or Francis dies.  We will see.

Well if JP2 did that stuff they will keep it secret till AFTER the canonisations...so that it can do the most damage.

[james03]

here is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics. 

And then there is the factual truth.  It was a non-binding, pastoral, fallible (prone to error), non-dogmatic council.