We should embrace the teaching of Vatican II on liturgy

Started by Jayne, July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM

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Justin Martyr

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 22, 2021, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: queen.saints on July 22, 2021, 04:51:18 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:51:42 PM
As for Fr. William Jenkins... he is affiliated with the SSPV. So he's either a Sedevacantist or a Sedeprivationist.

That is incorrect.

So Fr. Jenkins is a Sedeplenist?

I believe his personal position is technically "sedenegantism", as he himself calls it. He believes he has no authority to declare that St. John XXIII and successors were not the Pope, but that as an informed, private opinion he holds a "positive doubt" exists about their papacies. Ergo, according to him, papa dubius, papa nullus, which means he can not in good conscience treat them as the Pope.

Basically, he's a sedevacantist that calls himself otherwise. He's just less dogmatic about it than others.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 22, 2021, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 22, 2021, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: queen.saints on July 22, 2021, 04:51:18 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:51:42 PM
As for Fr. William Jenkins... he is affiliated with the SSPV. So he's either a Sedevacantist or a Sedeprivationist.

That is incorrect.

So Fr. Jenkins is a Sedeplenist?

I believe his personal position is technically "sedenegantism", as he himself calls it. He believes he has no authority to declare that St. John XXIII and successors were not the Pope, but that as an informed, private opinion he holds a "positive doubt" exists about their papacies. Ergo, according to him, papa dubius, papa nullus, which means he can not in good conscience treat them as the Pope.

Basically, he's a sedevacantist that calls himself otherwise. He's just less dogmatic about it than others.

I understand. He's an agnostic rather than an atheist towards the conciliar popes.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

queen.saints

I am sorry for the times I have publicly criticized others on this forum, especially traditional Catholic religious, and any other scandalous posts and pray that no one reads or believes these false and ignorant statements.

Prayerful

Quote from: Maximilian on July 21, 2021, 11:36:51 AM
Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM
Supposedly my attendance at the TLM means that I have rejected the teaching of the Second Vatican Council on liturgy.  I deny this charge. 

I plead guilty. I reject "the teaching of the Second Vatican Council on liturgy."

Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM

My thoughts about the Novus Ordo and about the recent motu proprio are quite consistent with the document on liturgy,  Sacrosanctum Concilium:

I find Sacrosanctum Concilium to be incompatible with the immutable teaching of the Catholic Church.

Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM

On the contrary, it said "In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community."

Just like the physical turning around of the priest which followed subsequently, this statement is a philosophical turning away from God and towards the people. This focus on "the community" is at the root of the disastrous collapse of the church since Vatican II.

Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM

"the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance"

This statement encapsulates the philosophy of the moderate revolutionaries with whom I fundamentally disagree. I don't believe that you can amputate pieces of an organic whole while preserving the essence. The entire approach that consists of deleting and re-writing the "accidents" ultimately results in killing the thing itself, or at least making it into something essentially other than its original nature. After Dr. Frankenstein got done stitching together the bits and pieces taken from other bodies, he ended up with an entirely new creature.

Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 08:27:01 AM

In addition to these difficulties, is one acknowledged by all recent popes: the widespread existence of abuses and experimentation associated with the new Mass. 

"Abuses and experimentation" are mandated by Sacrosanctum Concilium which calls for "even more radical adaptation." The Mass is to be under the authority of a Liturgy Commission which tasked to promote "experiments and adaptations."

Some authors have written about the "time bombs in the documents of Vatican II." It is important to realize that the bombs are the real thing, the rest is all fluff.

When an army is attacking a fort and they plant a bomb under the walls, they will cover it up with dirt and rocks and sticks and leaves. But the only important thing is the bomb, both for the attackers and for the defenders. How foolish would be the defender who discovers a pit under the wall of his fort but who says, "That hole consists mostly of dirt and rocks and sticks and leaves. There is also a bomb in the hole, but it's less than half of the total matter."

Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) has more holes than cheddar cheese. Michael Matt and others have analysed the loopholes. Yves Chiron does it too, recounting how small unobtrusive phrases allowed radical revision. Article 36 and other parts had good words on Gregorian chant, but those bishops who voted it through, did not turn against SC when its radical nature was revealed. In fact they enforced the changes aggressively. A loose tradition directed reading of SC might allow a future Pope to disarm it safely, but, yes, SC was a whited sepulchre for our times.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Tennessean

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: JayneIn addition to these difficulties, is one acknowledged by all recent popes: the widespread existence of abuses and experimentation associated with the new Mass.  Surely the faithful have a right to attend a Mass that is free of liturgical abuses and are justified in attending the old rite for that reason.

Those are legitimate concerns but the only reason the old rite is mostly free from them is because it is said exclusively by priests that are personally invested in it. When the old rite was the only rite of the Church, it too suffered many abuses from lukewarm and faithless priests and bishops.

That may be, but as a practical matter now, it is often easier to find a TLM than an abuse free Novus Ordo.

I generally agree with that sentiment but it also varies a lot with the geographical area and different countries.

Regardless, if the TLM were to be formally abolished by the Pope in the future, and we know he has the right to do so, you'd have to find a NO somewhere to go to. The Opus Dei usually say reverent NO masses in the vernacular, that's my experience.
Where are these Opus Dei priests, how do we find them? The internet says that members aren't allowed to say if they are Opus Dei.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Tennessean on July 23, 2021, 02:22:27 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: JayneIn addition to these difficulties, is one acknowledged by all recent popes: the widespread existence of abuses and experimentation associated with the new Mass.  Surely the faithful have a right to attend a Mass that is free of liturgical abuses and are justified in attending the old rite for that reason.

Those are legitimate concerns but the only reason the old rite is mostly free from them is because it is said exclusively by priests that are personally invested in it. When the old rite was the only rite of the Church, it too suffered many abuses from lukewarm and faithless priests and bishops.

That may be, but as a practical matter now, it is often easier to find a TLM than an abuse free Novus Ordo.

I generally agree with that sentiment but it also varies a lot with the geographical area and different countries.

Regardless, if the TLM were to be formally abolished by the Pope in the future, and we know he has the right to do so, you'd have to find a NO somewhere to go to. The Opus Dei usually say reverent NO masses in the vernacular, that's my experience.
Where are these Opus Dei priests, how do we find them? The internet says that members aren't allowed to say if they are Opus Dei.

You have to look it up in your city.

My parish church is run by Opus Dei priests.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Jayne

Quote from: Prayerful on July 22, 2021, 06:13:30 PM
Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) has more holes than cheddar cheese. Michael Matt and others have analysed the loopholes.

The point of my OP was not that SC was a good document, but that, even judging by the standards of SC, the Novus Ordo is problematic.  Even allowing for the ambiguities and loopholes there are problems.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Justin Martyr

#22
Quote from: Jayne on July 23, 2021, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on July 22, 2021, 06:13:30 PM
Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) has more holes than cheddar cheese. Michael Matt and others have analysed the loopholes.

The point of my OP was not that SC was a good document, but that, even judging by the standards of SC, the Novus Ordo is problematic.  Even allowing for the ambiguities and loopholes there are problems.

Ironically, Pope Francis gave (at least lip service level) attention to this exact point in Traditionis Custodes and the accompanying letter. Whether something will be done about it remains to be seen, however. If he can't even get bishops to crack down on Trads, I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to get them to enforce new (or even existing) standards of practice on the new mass. Unfortunately, as we learned with the communion in the hand debacle in the 70's, the authority of the Vatican is unable to enforce in practice what it possesses in theory. Which is the age old issue every monarch has faced.

The solution will have to come from bottom up, not top down. It will require God's grace to permit wicked shepherds to fall away and virtuous shepherds to be raised up. Above all, it will take time.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

King Wenceslas

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:14:01 PM
Regardless, if the TLM were to be formally abolished by the Pope in the future, and we know he has the right to do so, you'd have to find a NO somewhere to go to. The Opus Dei usually say reverent NO masses in the vernacular, that's my experience.

I'm hoping that I'll be dead first.

The TLM shouldn't be a modern idol to some Catholics, like Sacred Scripture was to the Protestants in the past. The liturgy is a means of sanctification but any liturgy of the Church is worth the same. However, nothing can trump unity with Rome. That is the Catholic faith.

It seems that you are in favor of the NO over the TLM?

Jayne

Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 02:56:18 PM
Ironically, Pope Francis gave (at least lip service level) attention to this exact point in Traditionis Custodes and the accompanying letter. Whether something will be done about it remains to be seen, however. If he can't even get bishops to crack down on Trads, I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to get them to enforce new (or even existing) standards of practice on the new mass. Unfortunately, as we learned with the communion in the hand debacle in the 70's, the authority of the Vatican is unable to enforce in practice what it possesses in theory. Which is the age old issue every monarch has faced.

Many, I suspect most, people think that Communion in the hand was a change introduced by Vatican II.  In fact, it was originally identified as an abuse in the NO and forbidden.  However, it was allowed as an indult in places where it was already being practiced because it was seen as too difficult to get people to change.  From that it became an unofficial norm.

One of the reasons that Pope Benedict gave for Summorum Pontificum was that wider celebration of the TLM is a way to counter the abuses in the NO.  It has probably been more effective than anything else, although that is not saying much.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

King Wenceslas

#25
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 23, 2021, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on July 22, 2021, 06:13:30 PM
Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) has more holes than cheddar cheese. Michael Matt and others have analysed the loopholes.

The point of my OP was not that SC was a good document, but that, even judging by the standards of SC, the Novus Ordo is problematic.  Even allowing for the ambiguities and loopholes there are problems.

Ironically, Pope Francis gave (at least lip service level) attention to this exact point in Traditionis Custodes and the accompanying letter. Whether something will be done about it remains to be seen, however. If he can't even get bishops to crack down on Trads, I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to get them to enforce new (or even existing) standards of practice on the new mass. Unfortunately, as we learned with the communion in the hand debacle in the 70's, the authority of the Vatican is unable to enforce in practice what it possesses in theory. Which is the age old issue every monarch has faced.

The solution will have to come from bottom up, not top down. It will require God's grace to permit wicked shepherds to fall away and virtuous shepherds to be raised up. Above all, it will take time.

We don't have time. 90% of Catholic women in the US practice contraception. You solution is incrementalism which means slow death for the faith in the US.

After 3 centuries only 5% to 10% of the people of the Roman Empire were Catholic. That is after three centuries of horrible persecution and death. It needed Constantine to allow the Church to come out of the catacombs before a much higher percentage of Romans to become Catholics.

Jayne

Quote from: King Wenceslas on July 23, 2021, 03:12:24 PM
After 3 centuries only 5% to 10% of the people of the Roman Empire were Catholic. That is after three centuries of horrible persecution and death. It needed Constantine to allow the Church to come out of the catacombs before a much higher percentage of Romans to become Catholics.

It looks to me like we are returning to a Church of the catacombs, in which Catholics are a small persecuted minority in a culture that is diametrically opposed to us.  This is likely to be more effective at purifying the Church than relying on the hierarchy to do it.  When people must put their lives on the line for the faith, we will have a small but fervent Church.  In many ways this will be an improvement.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Justin Martyr

Quote from: King Wenceslas on July 23, 2021, 03:12:24 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 23, 2021, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on July 22, 2021, 06:13:30 PM
Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) has more holes than cheddar cheese. Michael Matt and others have analysed the loopholes.

The point of my OP was not that SC was a good document, but that, even judging by the standards of SC, the Novus Ordo is problematic.  Even allowing for the ambiguities and loopholes there are problems.

Ironically, Pope Francis gave (at least lip service level) attention to this exact point in Traditionis Custodes and the accompanying letter. Whether something will be done about it remains to be seen, however. If he can't even get bishops to crack down on Trads, I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to get them to enforce new (or even existing) standards of practice on the new mass. Unfortunately, as we learned with the communion in the hand debacle in the 70's, the authority of the Vatican is unable to enforce in practice what it possesses in theory. Which is the age old issue every monarch has faced.

The solution will have to come from bottom up, not top down. It will require God's grace to permit wicked shepherds to fall away and virtuous shepherds to be raised up. Above all, it will take time.

We don't have time. 90% of Catholic women in the US practice contraception. You solution is incrementalism which means slow death for the faith in the US.

After 3 centuries only 5% to 10% of the people of the Roman Empire were Catholic. That is after three centuries of horrible persecution and death. It needed Constantine to allow the Church to come out of the catacombs before a much higher percentage of Romans to become Catholics.

Do you have a better solution? If Papal Authority is rejected in practice and the bishops refuse to comply, there isn't much that can be done from the top down. While it's not pleasant to my fallen nature, ultimately the only lasting solution I can see is God using his grace to strengthen the elect and keep them in his Church while withdrawing his grace from the reprobate to lead them away from it; leading to a bottom up, holistic cure and revival of Catholic piety. We can already see this at play in its infant stages now.

It would be much simpler and satisfying if a Pope Pius XIII (or, my preference, a Boniface X) could miraculously come about and fix everything. Unfortunately, reality is neither simple nor pleasant.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: King Wenceslas on July 23, 2021, 03:03:03 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: Jayne on July 21, 2021, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 21, 2021, 02:14:01 PM
Regardless, if the TLM were to be formally abolished by the Pope in the future, and we know he has the right to do so, you'd have to find a NO somewhere to go to. The Opus Dei usually say reverent NO masses in the vernacular, that's my experience.

I'm hoping that I'll be dead first.

The TLM shouldn't be a modern idol to some Catholics, like Sacred Scripture was to the Protestants in the past. The liturgy is a means of sanctification but any liturgy of the Church is worth the same. However, nothing can trump unity with Rome. That is the Catholic faith.

It seems that you are in favor of the NO over the TLM?

I'm not, Rome is.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Michael Wilson

We wouldn't have the TLM if we tried to "remain within the system"; those who remained lost their will to fight.
Soon if Francis is consistent, the E.D. Groups will be squashed and the only TLM's available will be with the "disobedient Catholics".
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers