Hypothetical situation concerning disagreeing with a priest's advice

Started by Jayne, June 11, 2021, 10:02:30 AM

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Jayne

Imagine that you are the confidante of a person who has told you about a personal problem and the advice he has received from a good traditional priest about it.  Furthermore, you are aware of a (somewhat obscure) traditional Catholic teaching that the priest seems to have overlooked and therefore given advice contrary to it.  The advice from the priest is causing great emotional suffering and causing a crisis of faith.

Would you tell the person who confided in you to ignore the priest?  Would you talk directly to the priest?  Would you send an anonymous letter to the priest that contains the traditional teaching?  Something else?
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Melkor

I would tell my friend to bring it up with the priest him/herself. It really is between the soul of the person and the priest.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

MundaCorMeum

I guess it would depend on the specifics.  Are you duty bound to said confidant (like a child or spouse)?  Maybe the priest actually knows about the teaching and has good reason to advise against it, and these sufferings are good for the person.  Maybe these sufferings, while difficult to watch the person go through, will be purifying in the long run.  Is what the priest advised sinful, or just seemingly imprudent or not what you think he should've advised?

james03

QuoteI would tell my friend to bring it up with the priest him/herself. It really is between the soul of the person and the priest.

Without details, and I don't want you to divulge a private conversation, this is decent advice.  Give the info you have to your friend and let her work it out with the priest.  And leave it at that.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Jayne

Quote from: Melkor on June 11, 2021, 10:24:39 AM
I would tell my friend to bring it up with the priest him/herself. It really is between the soul of the person and the priest.

Wouldn't telling someone that the priest may not be aware of the traditional Catholic teaching that applies to the situation cause the person to lose confidence in the priest?  It seems to me that merely raising the possibility that the priest might be wrong could damage the person's relationship with the priest.  How would one avoid this?

This is a situation in which it seems like a person is in danger of leaving the Church.  It is an extremely rare situation, so it is quite possible that the priest has never encountered the traditional teaching.  I don't think it is sinful to disregard the teaching, but it seems to me that it is highly imprudent.  I completely agree with the traditional teaching.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

james03

QuoteWouldn't telling someone that the priest may not be aware of the traditional Catholic teaching that applies to the situation cause the person to lose confidence in the priest?

Why should you have confidence in someone in error who is causing scandal?   Your friend has the right to take this to the bishop.  Again, we don't know the details and I don't want to know them.

If you have documentation from an authoritative source that the priest is in error, give it to your friend.  The priest might be grateful to find out the truth.  People make mistakes all the time, that is how you learn.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Michael Wilson

Priests make mistakes; if the advice given is contrary to Catholic teaching and it is causing harm to someone's soul; then you are doing the responsible thing by making your friend aware that the advice was mistaken. I have run across this problem in my own family; and bringing the Church's teaching to my family member was a big help and relief.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

dellery

Quote from: Jayne on June 11, 2021, 10:02:30 AM
Imagine that you are the confidante of a person who has told you about a personal problem and the advice he has received from a good traditional priest about it.  Furthermore, you are aware of a (somewhat obscure) traditional Catholic teaching that the priest seems to have overlooked and therefore given advice contrary to it.  The advice from the priest is causing great emotional suffering and causing a crisis of faith.

Would you tell the person who confided in you to ignore the priest?  Would you talk directly to the priest?  Would you send an anonymous letter to the priest that contains the traditional teaching?  Something else?

What are your intentions here? To save this person from emotional suffering, or to help him follow God's Will?

It was in accordance with the Law to stone adulteresses, however, Christ demonstrated this didn't necessarily square up with the Divine Will. Perhaps this priest knows about the obscure teaching in question and decided it was not applicable. Priests have graces to herd their flock, not us.
How obscure is this teaching anyway? Is it so obscure that it's not even applicable to our present times, and you're just trying to allow this man to heed his own will with a technicality?

As somebody who experiences intense, nearly unbearable, emotional suffering, it is just as much a gift as it is a burden. Overcoming emotional suffering is done by submitting oneself completely to the Will of God. Every time this happens with me I'm born anew and am gifted with a clarity of understanding, self-control, and a knowledge of the Divine that transcends faith itself. Your friend would benefit greatly from surrendering to God and accepting his suffering.

As to him having a crisis of faith, that's his problem. If he thinks leaving the Church is an option he might never have had the Faith to begin with.

You should be very careful here. Helping somebody retreat from their suffering when they should be striving to please God can do more harm than good.

Christ Himself was sobbing, asking to be relieved of His duty, just hours before valiantly facing His torturous death undeterred.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Jayne

Quote from: dellery on June 11, 2021, 08:10:33 PM
How obscure is this teaching anyway? Is it so obscure that it's not even applicable to our present times, and you're just trying to allow this man to heed his own will with a technicality?

This is a situation that has approximately one chance in 50,000 of occurring.  There is a relevant traditional teaching that applies to our present times and is not a technicality. It is possible the priest has not encountered it due to the rareness of the situation.

Maybe God wants this person to grow through suffering or maybe God led this person to confide in someone who was able to share this teaching in order to end the suffering. Trying to second guess God is not a good way to make decisions.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

dellery

Quote from: Jayne on June 12, 2021, 05:28:37 AM
Trying to second guess God is not a good way to make decisions.

In Persona Christi

It appears as if you've just answered your own question then.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Michael Wilson

People are not obliged to live in a situation that is endangering either their faith or their health. We have to accept the Crosses that God sends us; but we are also allowed to take licit means to alleviate those sufferings; including (depending on the case) consulting with a Priest, a doctor or even removing ourselves from the situation.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

dellery

Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 12, 2021, 08:25:48 AM
People are not obliged to live in a situation that is endangering either their faith or their health. We have to accept the Crosses that God sends us; but we are also allowed to take licit means to alleviate those sufferings; including (depending on the case) consulting with a Priest, a doctor or even removing ourselves from the situation.

What about a person who consults with a priest, doesn't accept his guidance, despairs, contemplates leaving the Faith, and has a friend who presents an admittedly obscure traditionalist teaching (whatever that means) so that the priest's guidance can be negated?
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Jayne

I think there is a significant difference between embracing one's own sufferings in order to share in the Cross of Christ and deciding to let other people needlessly suffer because it will be good for them.

Let's try a completely different scenario to look at that question.  I'll try to flesh this one out a bit more.

Let's say you are the confidante of a woman who has been abandoned by her husband.  Out of spite, he has disappeared without a trace so that even if he dies, she will not find out and be free to remarry.  She faces loneliness, financial hardship, etc., without even the hope of the situation changing.  She willingly accepts this as her Cross. 

Let's say she has told you a detail about the marriage that she thought was too insignificant to relate to the priest, but you recognize it as something that could potentially be legitimate grounds for annulment.   Do you tell her that she ought to inform the priest of this detail or do you keep silent because you think all this suffering will be good for her?
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Jayne

Quote from: dellery on June 12, 2021, 06:33:32 AM
Quote from: Jayne on June 12, 2021, 05:28:37 AM
Trying to second guess God is not a good way to make decisions.

In Persona Christi

It appears as if you've just answered your own question then.

The concept of in Persona Christi is part of Sacramental theology and does not mean that priests give infallible advice.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

james03

Crap Jayne, I don't want to be a cause of temptation for you to betray a confidence, and you are already starting to spill the beans.  We can't make a judgment on what's going on, because we don't have the details, and I hope we never learn them.  All we can do is give you the options available to a Catholic:
1. Present authoritative sources for the priest to consider.
2. Appeal to the bishop.
3. Accept the decision as a cross to bear.

Don't argue, as the temptation to provide more details for ammo will become too great for a female.  You have what advice you need, so move on.  I wish your friend well.  This is my last post in this thread.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"