Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

[Gerard]

Christ's action on Calvary is what satisfies the Justice of God for the sins of man.

I'm gonna try to stay out of the major debate here, because this really, REALLY isn't the appropriate place for me, but considering that nobody else has addressed this yet, I want to.

I find this argument kind of erroneous.

Christ's action of Calvary certainly grants repentance for the sins of man - but this doesn't extend to all people and all sin, for if this were the case, the Last Judgment wouldn't be a thing at all, neither would hell be.

It certainly does allows forgiveness and repentance who choose to follow Christ (and who really mean it, not just nominal Christians who still live a life of grave sin and don't see the problems of such sin) through the Sacraments, and allows one to find Salvation - but not everyone is going to be saved, nor is every sin going to be justified and forgiven if left unrepentant.

It's also a grave mistake to think that God hasn't intervened with history since Pentecost - I find it hardly a coincidence that one of the most Pagan and Vile Empires in history (the Roman Empire) with all it's persecutions and disgusting tortures of the Saints eventually converts to Christianity, making it the official religion of the Empire.

The fact that God does intervene in history is attested by the Eastern-Rite prayer of the "Small Paraklesis to the Theotokos," where the Priest asks God that He may "deliver us from His impending, justified chastisement, and have mercy on us."

I think it's also a massively grave mistake to think that the Saints - including the Virgin Mary - would have no concerns or cares about the people on this earth because of their current spiritual state. There is a reason we pray to them, right?


That's all I'm gonna say - this isn't an appropriate conversation for me to intervene, especially given my theological beliefs - but I don't get why anybody else has brought this up, because the implications of some of Gerard's beliefs (that the Saints don't watch over us  or that God doesn't intervene with the sins of human history anymore because of Christ) are foreign to both my religious beliefs and everyone else involved in this discussion.


If I'm speaking something that isn't true, correct me on it.

Well, first, Calvary satisfies the Justice of all sins, that allows for repentance and the forgiveness of sins.  If not, the Last Judgement would simply be shuttling people off to Hell. 

The fact that some people don't respond to the graces Christ merited on Calvary and some do is what everyone's particular and the Last Judgement recognize. 

Second: No one as far as I know, has stated that God does not intervene nor that the saints don't intercede for mankind.  I pointed out in this thread that I believe in the apparition of Our Lady of Lourdes but not Fatima.  Fatima and Lourdes are very different.  Fatima runs into serious problems with its announcement of calamities and its provisions of solutions all conditional on the Pope doing what the apparition wants.  That's not how the Lord set up His papacy.  So, He certainly isn't going to send His mother to upset the structure He established and make Him a liar concerning how His Church is to be run. 
Lourdes has none of that baggage. 

Third: We are obviously having divergent views on the thread about what entails the beatific vision and God's characteristics.  The Virgin Mary did all of her suffering on earth, during her life.  She does not suffer now.  She is glorified in Heaven.  Our problems and our sins do not have any negative effect on her.  That does not mean she doesn't intercede, obtain graces or provide solace and comfort to the afflicted.  She is not torn apart in sympathies, that does not render her incapable of being loving.  The same is true to an infinite degree with God.  He will never be unhappy or "angered" in the way that we understand anger.  His "anger" to us is the consequences of our sin.  He has built sanctions into not living a life of grace.  They are the "wages of sin."  But if everyone who is alive now or to be born ends up in Hell. God will not be any less joyful than He is now, nor as He was before the creation of the world. 

[awkwardcustomer]

I honestly thought that Fatima was one thing that all trads agreed on, in our sadly splintered trad world.

How Fatima became so instrinsic to being a Trad is a puzzle.  There's a story there that's worth telling.

In anwer to your earlier question, I used to say the Fatima prayer, but not any more.

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR SATURDAY.

Most holy Mary, I know the graces which thou hast obtained for me, and I know the ingratitude which I have shown thee. The ungrateful man is unworthy of favours; and yet for all this I will not distrust thy mercy. O my great Advocate, have pity on me. Thou, Mary, dost dispense the graces which God vouchsafes to give us sinners, and therefore did He make thee so mighty, rich, and kind, that thou mightest succour us. I will that I may be saved: in thy hands I place my eternal salvation, to thee I consign my soul. I will to be associated with those who are thy special servants; reject me not. Thou goest up and down seeking the wretched, to console them. Cast not away, then, a wretched sinner who has recourse to thee. Speak for me, Mary; thy Son grants what thou askest. Take me beneath thy shelter, and it is enough for me; for with thee to guard me I fear no ill; no, not even my sins; because thou wilt obtain God's pardon for them: no, nor yet devils; because thou art far mightier than all hell: no, nor my Judge Jesus Christ; for at thy prayer He will lay aside His wrath. Protect me, then, my Mother; obtain for me pardon of my sins, love of Jesus, holy perseverance, a good death, and Heaven. It is too true, I merit not these graces; yet do thou only ask them of our God, and I shall obtain them. Pray, then, to Jesus for me. O Mary, my Queen, in thee I trust; in this trust I rest, I live; and with this trust I will that I may die. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her, then the Litanies, it being Saturday, for which there is the indulgence.

74.  THE LITANIES

The Litanies commonly called " Litanies of our Lady" are named "Litanies of Loretto" in the Constitutions of several Sovereign Pontiffs, - viz. Reddituri, of Sixtus V., July11, 1687; Sanctissimus, of Clement VIII., Sept. 6, 1601; and In supremo, of Alexander VII., May 28, 1664 - by reason of their being sung with great solemnity every Saturday in the Holy House of Loretto. They are composed of humble supplications and devout prayers to Almighty and (this being the meaning of the word "Litanies"), offered up through the intercession of our Blessed Lady, who is honoured therein by the application to her of the mystic figures, high titles, and glorious appellations whereby she is invoked. That these Litanies, when said by the faithful, in church in public, or at home in private, might always remain word for word exactly as they have been handed down to us from ancient tradition, Pope Alexander VII., in the Constitution above named, strictly forbade the making of any alteration in them.
To encourage the faithful often to have recourse to the intercession of most holy Mary in their behalf with Almighty (and, and at the same time to do her honour, Pope Sixtus V., in the above-named Constitution, granted -
i. An indulgence of 200 days, every time these Litanies are said with devotion and contrition.
Pope Benedict XIII., by a decree of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, Jan. 12, 1728, confirmed this Indulgence; and Pope Pius VII., confirming it afresh by a decree of the same S. Congr. of Sept 30, 1817, extended it to 300 days.
He granted, moreover, to all who say them daily -
ii. A plenary Indulgence on the five Feasts of our Blessed Lady, of Obligation according to the Roman Calendar, viz, the Immaculate Conception, the Nativity, the Annunciation, the Purification, and the Assumption, on condition that, being truly contrite for their sins, and after Confession and Communion, they visit a public church, and pray according to the intention of the Pope.

LITANY OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN;

Commonly called the Litany of Loretto.

Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Christ hear us.
Christ graciously hear us.
God the Father of heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
Mother of Christ, pray for us.
Mother of divine grace, pray for us.
Mother most pure, pray for us.
Mother most chaste, pray for us.
Mother inviolate, pray for us.
Mother undefiled, pray for us.
Mother most amiable, pray for us.
Mother most admirable, pray for us.
Mother of our Creator, pray for us.
Mother of our Redeemer, pray for us.
Virgin most prudent, pray for us.
Virgin most venerable, pray for us.
Virgin most renowned, pray for us.
Virgin most powerful, pray for us.
Virgin most merciful, pray for us.
Virgin most faithful, pray for us.
Mirror of justice, pray for us.
Seat of wisdom, pray for us.
Cause of our joy, pray for us.
Spiritual Vessel, pray for us.
Vessel of honour, pray for us.
Special Vessel of devotion, pray for us.
Mystical Rose, pray for us.
Tower of David, pray for us.
Tower of ivory, pray for us.
House of gold, pray for us.
Ark of the covenant, pray for us.
Gate of heaven, pray for us.
Morning star, pray for us.
Health of the sick, pray for us.
Refuge of sinners, pray for us.
Comforter of the afflicted, pray for us.
Help of Christians, pray for us.
Queen of Angels, pray for us.
Queen of Patriarchs, pray for us.
Queen of Prophets, pray for us.
Queen of Apostles, pray for us.
Queen of Martyrs, pray for us.
Queen of Confessors, pray for us.
Queen of Virgins, pray for us.
Queen of all Saints, pray for us.
Queen conceived without stain of original sin, pray for us.

Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us.
Christ hear us,
Christ graciously hear us.

V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray.
Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ Thy Son was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion + and Cross be brought to the glory of His resurrection. Through the same Christ our Lord. R. Amen.

V. May the divine assistance remain always with us. R. Amen.

[Gerard]

Mikemac,  you need to grow up. 

I very much doubt the Blessed Mother is appreciative of you deliberately mischaracterizing (i.e. lying) anyone who doesn't buy into Fatima as "blasphemous" nor do I believe she appreciates being used by you as a way of skirting around an argument you can't win by pretending to defend her against an attack that doesn't exist.  (strange parallel to Fatima itself, you invent the crisis and then want to coerce people into doing what you want in order to "make things right." )   

Not one person in this thread nor on any other thread disputing Fatima has ever made any disrespectful statement against the Blessed Mother much less committed any kind of blasphemy. 

You are either going to accept what the Catholic Church teaches about believing or not believing apparitions or you're not. 

If not, you have a serious problem with your faith and you need to avoid these temptations towards heresy on your part and you need to talk to a priest about your excesses and lack of acceptance of the boundaries of doctrine. 

[Innocent Smith]

I honestly thought that Fatima was one thing that all trads agreed on, in our sadly splintered trad world.

How Fatima became so instrinsic to being a Trad is a puzzle.  There's a story there that's worth telling.

In anwer to your earlier question, I used to say the Fatima prayer, but not any more.

Same for me. As a matter of fact, I believe it was the recitation of this prayer that initialized my doubt about the entire thing.

In group prayers it just dawned on me that there was immediate buy in without discernment.

[mikemac]

Mikemac,  you need to grow up. 

I very much doubt the Blessed Mother is appreciative of you deliberately mischaracterizing (i.e. lying) anyone who doesn't buy into Fatima as "blasphemous" nor do I believe she appreciates being used by you as a way of skirting around an argument you can't win by pretending to defend her against an attack that doesn't exist.  (strange parallel to Fatima itself, you invent the crisis and then want to coerce people into doing what you want in order to "make things right." )   

Not one person in this thread nor on any other thread disputing Fatima has ever made any disrespectful statement against the Blessed Mother much less committed any kind of blasphemy. 

You are either going to accept what the Catholic Church teaches about believing or not believing apparitions or you're not. 

If not, you have a serious problem with your faith and you need to avoid these temptations towards heresy on your part and you need to talk to a priest about your excesses and lack of acceptance of the boundaries of doctrine.

Gerard you are changing the narrative, just like Gardener did in his last post.  That is why I included my November 29th post with my Saturday prayers for reparation yesterday.  And that is why I will be including my November 29th post with my daily prayers for reparation from now on, so that everyone knows what they are for.

You know yourself Gerard that this is not about whether you believe Fatima or not.  That is your choice, and I don't care whether you do or not.

It will be up to your priest, not me to tell you whether or not it is a sin when you allow your pride to carry on with your ridiculous notion of saying that Our Lady of Fatima's request for a consecration of Russia some how undermines the papacy.  I mean if you ever get the nerve to talk to a priest about it.

But when you and your cohorts say that Our Lady of Fatima is from the devil, even though Our Lady of Fatima has asked us to cease offending God, to say the Rosary every day and do the first Saturday devotions for reparation for sins committed against her, then that is clearly a blasphemy.  And this blasphemy of yours needs prayers of reparation, specifically in this thread where you have said it.

I will be posting the daily prayers of reparation in this thread for the full month until the new year so that myself and any forum member or even non forum member that wants to join me can receive a plenary indulgence, like Pope Pius VII granted.  The prayers are different for each day of the week and the Litany of Loretto is added on the Saturdays.

I want to have a peaceful Advent so I will not be posting to this forum, other than posting my weekly Rosaries to Xavier's thread in the prayer forum as well as these daily prayers of reparation in this thread.

The only thing that may stop me from posting these daily prayers of reparation in this thread for the next month is if Kaesekopf bans me.  I can't accuse Kaesekopf of being your cohort for allowing you to post these blasphemies in his forum because he may not have noticed them.  But he will be your cohort if he bans me from posting these prayers of reparation in this thread.  If you do Kaesekopf then make it permanent.

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR SUNDAY.

Mother of my God, look down upon a poor sinner, who has recourse to thee, and puts his trust in thee. I am not worthy that thon shouldst even cast thine eyes upon me; but I know that thou, beholding Jesus thy Son dying for sinners, dost thyself yearn exceedingly to save them. O Mother of Mercy, look on my miseries and have pity upon me. I hear it said by all that thou art the refuge of the sinner, the hope of the desperate, the aid of the lost; be thou, then, my refuge, hope, and aid. It is thy prayers which must save me. For the love of Jesus Christ be thou my help; reach forth thy hand to the poor fallen sinner who recommends himself to thee. I know that it is thy consolation to aid the sinner when thou canst do so; help me then, thou who canst help. By my sins I have forfeited the grace of God and my own soul. I place myself in thy hands; O, tell me what to do that I may regain the grace of God, and I will do it. My Saviour bids me go to thee for help; He wills that I should look to thy pity; that so, not only the merits of thy Son, but thine own prayers also, may unite to save me. To thee, then, I have recourse: pray thou to Jesus for me; and make me experience how great good thou canst do for one who trusts in thee. Be it done unto me according to my hope. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her.

[Gardener]

Mikemac,  you need to grow up. 

I very much doubt the Blessed Mother is appreciative of you deliberately mischaracterizing (i.e. lying) anyone who doesn't buy into Fatima as "blasphemous" nor do I believe she appreciates being used by you as a way of skirting around an argument you can't win by pretending to defend her against an attack that doesn't exist.  (strange parallel to Fatima itself, you invent the crisis and then want to coerce people into doing what you want in order to "make things right." )   

Not one person in this thread nor on any other thread disputing Fatima has ever made any disrespectful statement against the Blessed Mother much less committed any kind of blasphemy. 

You are either going to accept what the Catholic Church teaches about believing or not believing apparitions or you're not. 

If not, you have a serious problem with your faith and you need to avoid these temptations towards heresy on your part and you need to talk to a priest about your excesses and lack of acceptance of the boundaries of doctrine.

Gerard you are changing the narrative, just like Gardener did in his last post.  That is why I included my November 29th post with my Saturday prayers for reparation yesterday.  And that is why I will be including my November 29th post with my daily prayers for reparation from now on, so that everyone knows what they are for.

You know yourself Gerard that this is not about whether you believe Fatima or not.  That is your choice, and I don't care whether you do or not.

It will be up to your priest, not me to tell you whether or not it is a sin when you allow your pride to carry on with your ridiculous notion of saying that Our Lady of Fatima's request for a consecration of Russia some how undermines the papacy.  I mean if you ever get the nerve to talk to a priest about it.

But when you and your cohorts say that Our Lady of Fatima is from the devil, even though Our Lady of Fatima has asked us to cease offending God, to say the Rosary every day and do the first Saturday devotions for reparation for sins committed against her, then that is clearly a blasphemy.  And this blasphemy of yours needs prayers of reparation, specifically in this thread where you have said it.

I will be posting the daily prayers of reparation in this thread for the full month until the new year so that myself and any forum member or even non forum member that wants to join me can receive a plenary indulgence, like Pope Pius VII granted.  The prayers are different for each day of the week and the Litany of Loretto is added on the Saturdays.

I want to have a peaceful Advent so I will not be posting to this forum, other than posting my weekly Rosaries to Xavier's thread in the prayer forum as well as these daily prayers of reparation in this thread.

The only thing that may stop me from posting these daily prayers of reparation in this thread for the next month is if Kaesekopf bans me.  I can't accuse Kaesekopf of being your cohort for allowing you to post these blasphemies in his forum because he may not have noticed them.  But he will be your cohort if he bans me from posting these prayers of reparation in this thread.  If you do Kaesekopf then make it permanent.

I don't know what you're talking about. I've not changed my narrative.

[awkwardcustomer]

I honestly thought that Fatima was one thing that all trads agreed on, in our sadly splintered trad world.

How Fatima became so instrinsic to being a Trad is a puzzle.  There's a story there that's worth telling.

In anwer to your earlier question, I used to say the Fatima prayer, but not any more.

Same for me. As a matter of fact, I believe it was the recitation of this prayer that initialized my doubt about the entire thing.

In group prayers it just dawned on me that there was immediate buy in without discernment.

Immediate buy in without discernment seems to be the order of the day.  I don't understand it.  People repeatedly claim that Sr Lucy prophesied this or that event, and yet her own diaries show that she didn't.  What's going on?

I've tried very hard to believe in Fatima.

[Xavier]

Well, you'll all know what was right in the end. We hope you wake up before it is too late. When the king of France was driven out, he wept bitterly hoping to have had again the time in which he could have freely and publicly made the consecration - but it was too late. You can wait till something like an invasion of Rome takes place and the Pope is in a similar situation if you want. Those intent on Catholic action to forestall that will not wait but seek to prevent that.

"5. Lastly, I resolve to renew every year, wherever I may be, on the day upon which the feast of the Sacred Heart is celebrated, the Act of Consecration contained in the third article, and to assist at the public procession that shall follow the Mass of that day.
To-day I can pronounce this engagement only in secret, but I am willing, if necessary, to sign it with my blood. The most beautiful day of my life will be that on which I shall be able to publish it aloud in the church.
O Adorable Heart of my Saviour: may my right hand be forgotten, and may I myself be forgotten, if ever I forget Thy benefits and my promises"

http://www.1260.org/Mary/Heart/Heart_of_Jesus_Alacoque_Consecration_France_en.htm

Now, I want to show some of Rome's own locutionists agree with us that Russia's consecration to the Immaculate Heart is to be completed soon.

"There was to be a great victory and an exultation of the Catholic Church which would provide such a great power. None of this has happened because my request for the Consecration of Russia has not been fulfilled ... As these events culminate, Catholics will see before their eyes what I have been describing. They will also remember that my words always carried a message of hope. There was always time, always a way, because of the mystery of my Immaculate Heart. So, the clamor will grow. Prayers for the consecration will increase. More important, I will hear these cries. I will use the evil events themselves to open the door. Finally, the Consecration will take place according to my request.

In all things, a timetable exists. These are not fixed hours or days, but rather the goal that will be reached as the forces of good or evil are released. The timetable depends on the free will of every single person. When many hearts deeply desire and pray for the Consecration, the time of its fulfillment grows closer and comes sooner. To pray and sacrifice for that moment is everyone's task ...

When Russia is Consecrated

The Stirring in Russian Hearts

Sunday, August 17th, 2014

Mary

When Russia is consecrated to my Immaculate Heart, there will be a stirring in the hearts of all, but especially in the souls of the Russian people. They will receive an inner light and will understand what forces of evil were planted in their nation by Satan's instruments.

As their hearts are stirred, more and more light will fill them. They will reject both what has been forced upon them and what, to some degree, they themselves have chosen. All of these evils have formed their nation and their leaders into instruments of darkness, death and destruction. In this new stirring, they will fully reject what they have become and what they had been forced to accept.

This stirring will grow greater as it manifests itself in outward demonstrations of a growing desire to return to its religious roots and, especially, to return to their devotion of my Immaculate Heart.

No one will be able to stop this movement because their nation will have been specifically consecrated by the Holy Father and by all the Catholic bishops of the world. I have put my seal of promise upon this act of Consecration, and the graces flowing from it will not be turned back. Even though the most frightful opposition will arise, the stirring in the hearts of the Russian people for this new light will not be turned back.

http://locutions-forever.org/locutions/show/2014-08-17/2-the-stirring-in-russian-hearts

[james.rogerson]

What a very strange website.

[Vetus Ordo]

But when you and your cohorts say that Our Lady of Fatima is from the devil, even though Our Lady of Fatima has asked us to cease offending God, to say the Rosary every day and do the first Saturday devotions for reparation for sins committed against her, then that is clearly a blasphemy.  And this blasphemy of yours needs prayers of reparation, specifically in this thread where you have said it.

As Suárez defined it, blasphemy would be "any word of malediction, reproach, or contumely pronounced against God: (De Relig., tract. iii, lib. I, cap. iv, n. 1)." And the CE expounds on it, noting that "it is said to be against God, though this may be only mediately, as when the contumelious word is spoken of the saints or of sacred things, because of the relationship they sustain to God and His service."

Doubting or even rejecting an approved apparition, or parts of it, is not blasphemy. We must keep in mind that divine revelation ceased with the death of St. John.

[awkwardcustomer]

Well, you'll all know what was right in the end. We hope you wake up before it is too late.

And the same to you Xavier.

While you're waiting for others to wake up, could you answer a question I have already put to you, and mikemac, more than once.

Sr Lucy withheld vital information from the Canonical Enquiry into Fatima.  Despite being under oath, she did not tell the Canonical Enquiry about the Secrets or the angel apparitions.  She explained in her 1941 memoirs that the 'Holy Spirit' inspired her to stay silent on this.

Can you name another saint or visionary who has been inspired by the Holy Spirit to lie to the Church?

I know your tendency is to avoid such questions, then start another thread about yet another apparition.  So while I have your momentary attention, could you answer another question?

Why do you believe a visionary who claims that the 'Holy Spirit' inspired her to lie to the Church?  Why does anyone?  How did this happen?

That's three more questions.

Try not to run this time.

[Xavier]

In the category if questions not answered, go back to the beginning of this thread and you will find at least 3 of mine that you did not answer, Awkwardcustomer. Here are some, again: "So, no word about the (1) public miracle (2) on the prophesied date of Oct 13th, 1917 (beside the very year and significance of 1917 and the revolution happening at that time in Russia; Heaven began the counter-attack before it became apparent to other Catholics) (3) the fulfilled prophesies of Communism's influence both in countries and in the Church that was still hidden well into the 40s and 50s (4) the warnings of Bella Dodd (which you've dismissed as exaggerated, but which came true just as she warned, very soon, proving they were right about Soviet infiltration (5) Mother Mary's prophesies against impurity etc being especially urgent.

There are a few other incidental points: (1) the Church took a very strong stance against Communism in large measure because of the warnings of Our Lady of Fatima (2) the more traditional Fathers at Vatican II wanted a dogmatic condemnation of Communism; many also wished explicitly to obey Our Lady's request at that Council (3) among those who did nof want it (and negotiated with the Soviets badly and unfavorably for the Church) and instituted Ostpolotik there were some progressives and modernists opposed to Fatima. So which side are you?

Your other argument is amazing. So, if we have to obey the men of the Church, as you say, in preference to the voice of the Holy Spirit (not that Sr. Lucia ever said she would disobey the Church, but only that that the Holy Spirit would speak through His Church, and vindicate that her mission and prophetic spirit was from Him), then why do you persist in stubbornly disobeying those same men of the Church after they had all their doubts clarified and gave full approval?" That will do for now.

Edit: also "Awkwardcustomer, let me ask in turn: are you sure the Sacred Heart was revealed by God? That the Rosary came by private revelation from heaven. Yes, there are modernists (who hardly believe in or deny everything supernatural) who deny all that as well; what saddens me is that there are trads who agree with them. If you are certain those came from God, I am equally certain Our Lady of Fatima and the Immaculate Heart (already in St. Margaret Mary, St. John Eudes etc, devotion to the Heart of Mary had begun; St. Mary and St. John confirm, and faced opposition in their day, for teaching devotion to the Heart of Mary is inseparable from, and a necessary complement to, devotion to the Heart of Jesus. Fatima also confirms the dogma of the Immaculate Conception that had recently been defined. Hence, Immaculate Heart.) also came from God. Do you know the First Saturdays practice had already been sanctioned as good and holy by Pope St. Pius X? But hardly anyone kept it at that time. Thanks to Sr. Lucia and Our Lady of Fatima, hundreds of millions of Catholics have performed it.

All these are good fruits. Where are the good fruits from the anti-Fatima movement? Beside some misguided trads, those against Fatima are either (1) modernists (2) protestants (3) communists (a Catholic bishop in China recently said the Chinese fear Our Lady of Fatima and complain Her statues frm that apparition are "anti-communist". (4) secularists of some kind, who disbelieve miracles and the supernatural. (5) some sedevacantists. Meanwhile, hundreds of millions of Catholics have believed in, embraced and accepted Fatima; it has good spiritual fruits.

These considerations suffice to exclude the possibility of the demonic.

Sr Lucy deceived the Church into approving the 1917 apparitions at Fatima.

An absurdity. A poor uneducated shepherdess is not likely to trick trained theologians, Priests and exorcists. If she was misled by the devil, the signs of that would be evident. Instead theologians soon and quite unanimously pronounced it of supernatural origin; many Popes confirmed the judgment. It is irreformable, safe and morally certain.

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR MONDAY.

Most holy Mary, Queen of heaven, I who was once the slave of the Evil One now dedicate myself to thy service for ever; and I offer myself, to honour and to serve thee as long as I live. Accept me for thy servant, and cast me not away from thee as I deserve. In thee, O my Mother, I place all my hopes. All blessing and thanksgiving be to God, who in His mercy giveth me this trust in thee. It is true that in past time I have fallen miserably into sin; but by the merits of Jesus Christ, and thy prayers, I hope that God has pardoned me. But this is not enough, my Mother. One thought terrifies me; it is, that I may yet lose the grace of God. Danger is ever nigh; the devil sleeps not; fresh temptations assail me. Protect me, then, my Queen; help me against the assaults of my spiritual enemy. Never suffer me to sin again, or to offend Jesus thy Son. Let me not by my sin lose my soul, heaven, and my God. This one grace, Mary, I ask of thee; this is my desire; may thy prayers obtain this for me. Such is my hope. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her.