Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

Started by Miriam_M, October 29, 2018, 11:51:51 AM

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awkwardcustomer

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me ....

The devil might say this though.  Because it's not true.

Our Lady is in perfect bliss along with the company of heaven.  She does not suffer, thank goodness, and her heart is not pierced by thorns.


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

mikemac

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on November 29, 2018, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me ....

The devil might say this though.  Because it's not true.

Our Lady is in perfect bliss along with the company of heaven.  She does not suffer, thank goodness, and her heart is not pierced by thorns.

Why do you think we say prayers of reparation?

You didn't answer my question.

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Traditionallyruralmom

do those who "don't do" Fatima not say the "O my Jesus" prayer at the end of every decade?
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

Gerard

Quote from: Traditionallyruralmom on November 29, 2018, 10:33:18 PM
do those who "don't do" Fatima not say the "O my Jesus" prayer at the end of every decade?

I no longer say it.  And to be frank, I'd always had problems with that prayer. 

"..lead all souls to Heaven..."  smacks of the same universal salvation that has plagued the Church in recent decades.  Much like the "for all" vs "for many" crisis in the consecration formula of the Novus Ordo.

Why petition Jesus for something the He already revealed will not happen?  He clearly explained that not all souls would get to Heaven and the sheep and goats would be separated at the final judgment. 

Also, there seemed to be controversy about the actual prayer itself.  According to Dr. Tom Drolesky, the actual ending was "...especially those most in need."  Not "...especially those most in need of thy mercy."  since everyone is in need of His mercy.  It seems the redundant part had been added by someone, somewhere.   

Better just to stick to saying the rosary the most traditional way and avoid all of the modern innovations attached to it. 


Gerard

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.


The Devil already owns every non-Catholic religion.  There's a lot of piety out there being promoted by him in order to allow fatal errors to get through the cracks and people to die outside of the one, true Church. 

Evil can't exist without good. The Devil is perfectly capable of doing a lot of apparent good when his long term strategy is evil. 


Xavier

Quote from: GerardThe Devil already owns every non-Catholic religion.

Correct. And pretty much every non-Catholic religion opposes Fatima. Protestants oppose it because they dislike veneration of Our Lady, and devotion to the Immaculate Heart and the Rosary. Even Orthodox are not too fond of it because, unlike modern ecumenism, it implies they too have to retract errors (since about 100 years ago, the Orthodox Churches deny the Immaculate Conception) and end the schism by returning to Rome. Non-Christians reject it because they reject Christ and His Mother. So, which side are you on? The side of non-Catholics.

On the other hand, Fatima greatly bolsters the Church and confirms Catholics in the Faith and in devotion to Our Lady and Lord. What you are doing is like a Mexican in Gaudalupe saying, "Even though the Bishop approved the apparition to St. Juan Diego, I personally believe it was the devil that appeared". Satan does not cast out Satan. Do you know how the devils screamed in torment when the Rosary was revealed to St. Dominic and some 15,000 devils were driven out when a crowd of mere thousands prayed the Rosary? Well, hundreds of millions of Catholics have prayed the daily Rosary thanks to the urgent admonitions of Our Lady of Fatima. Many nations including Poland were delivered from Communism by this means. If then Fatima is from Satan, as your blasphemy claims, the Word of God lied, and Satan does cast out Satan.

Since that is impossible, clearly youre mistaken. The first thing Catholics ask, "Is the apparition approved by the Bishop?" If yes, that should be enough. No? Fine. Appeal to the Pope. Is it approved by the Pope? Yes. Then inquire no further, as it is certainly from God. And approved by Him through His Vicars. The Church will never change, re-open or revise Her judgment through Her Pontiffs that Fatima is from God.

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on November 29, 2018, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me ....

The devil might say this though.  Because it's not true.

Our Lady is in perfect bliss along with the company of heaven.  She does not suffer, thank goodness, and her heart is not pierced by thorns.

Why do you think we say prayers of reparation?

Yes, and this mistaken way of thinking also goes against the reparation asked for by the Sacred Heart. The Sacred Heart also asked for reparation to St. Margaret Mary and it is clear the Lord deeply felt and is aggrieved by the coldness and lukewarmness shown Him in the Sacraments.

""Behold this Heart," Jesus said sorrowfully, as He held His pierced Heart out to St. Margaret Mary. "Behold this Heart which has so loved men, that it has spared nothing, even to exhausting and consuming itself in order to testify to its love. In return, I have received from the greater part only ingratitude, by their irreverence and their sacrilege, and by the coldness and contempt they have for Me in this sacrament of Love."

http://heartsofjesusandmary.com/behold-this-heart-3/

In the Bible, we see Jesus ask St. Paul "Why are you persecuting Me"? God is persecuted when His Sacraments and holy dwellings are profaned, when His saints in whom He lives are oppressed. Heaven also suffers as a Father or Mother suffers out of love when the prodigal child is far from home; not as the child suffers out of his own fault, but as love and compassion in willing the child to come home quickly and praying for him or her causes a kind of loving suffering. The greater the love, the greater the suffering. But love is greatest in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Therefore, their Hearts suffer more than that of all other Saints in heaven. And so it is our duty not to offend and oppress them further with untrue and unjust denials of their wonders and miracles, but to believe, console and make reparation to The Twin Hearts.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on November 29, 2018, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me ....

The devil might say this though.  Because it's not true.

Our Lady is in perfect bliss along with the company of heaven.  She does not suffer, thank goodness, and her heart is not pierced by thorns.

Why do you think we say prayers of reparation?

You didn't answer my question.

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

I did answer your question, although perhaps not as directly as necessary. Of course the devil would recommend all manner of prayer and piety if he could sneak in one little falsehood. The devil can quote the scriptures, as can anyone.  The devil believes in God, unlike the atheist.  Even Satan can appear as an angel of light.  You don't seem to have much understanding of hidden cunning, or deceit as employed by the malevolent.  Poison, naturally bitter to the taste, has to be sweetened or people wouldn't drink it.

The idea that Our Lady is suffering and in distress now is a common feature of the modern Marian apparitions which focus on reparation.  Our Lord is likewise often represented as angry or sorrowful as a result of the blasphemies of modern man.  We are called, therefore, to make reparation for these outrages, to comfort and console the Immaculate Heart of Mary and to avert God's anger.

Devotions to the Heart of Mary originally showed Our Lady's heart pierced by a sword.  Devotions to the Sacred Heart have a long history prior to the revelations of St Mary Margaret Alacoque.  At any rate, these are symbolic representations of love, and of suffering because of that love.  The Sacred Heart carries the thorns, the Immaculate Heart is pierced by a sword.  Our Lord's love for mankind pierced His Heart with thorns.  Our Lady's love for Christ pierced her heart with a sword.  Devotion to the Immaculate Heart was intended to increase our love for Christ.

You ask why we make prayers of reparation?  This is a question that requires some examination. Surely the answer is because Divine Justice requires them, without implying in any way that prayers of reparation ease Our Lady's 'suffering' in the here and now.

Of course, if you are led to believe that Our Lady suffers now, when she doesn't, you might understandably become very attached to the idea of relieving that suffering.  And consequently very attached to any devotion with reparation to the Immaculate Heart at its core.

I've said elsewhere that something feels very 'off' about the modern Marian apparitions.  They seem to encourage passivity.  Our Lord is blasphemed and Our Lady insulted at a 'modern' Mass, so make reparation for this, to lessen their sufferings, and who wouldn't be emotionally invested in doing that.  But don't say anything, make no visible protest, don't rise up and drive the modernists from the sanctuary.  Make reparation. Pray, but never act.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Michael Wilson on November 29, 2018, 07:20:00 AM
Nobody is saying that God "must" punish in a certain way; the premise is that sins not only result in the eternal punishment in Hell but also for temporal punishments in this life.

You just did say that.  Glad to see you admit your mistake.  God could, then, not punish the world in this particular manner even if the Pope doesn't say the seven magic words.  There's no intrinsic connection between seven magic words and a particular punishment of the world.

And we aren't just talking about temporal punishment.  So the story goes, if the Pope just but says the seven magic words, many souls will be saved - implying they wouldn't be without those seven magic words.  This implies God could save the souls even without the seven magic words, but He refuses to do so.  So, countless millions of souls must suffer eternal punishment because God didn't get the seven magic words.

This makes God like the tyrannical child in the Twilight Zone episode. I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to worship such a monster, and I have the ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY of conscience that I am correct in so doing.  This is why, I have concluded, a lot of trads often behave like petulant children.  They're only imitating the God they claim to worship.

Of course, there's another possibility: Fatima is just one big hoax from start to finish.  It's not a point in its favor that its devotees lie through their teeth about the Miracle of the Sun being "witnessed by 70,000".  That number is a reasonable estimate of the people present at the Cova, but it doesn't say anything about what they saw or didn't see.  In fact, some of the witnesses saw nothing, and for those that did see something, they didn't all see the same thing.  Or lying about Father Dhanis being a "Modernist" when he was nothing of the sort.  These are some of the "wonderful fruits" of Fatima.  Lying.  Calumny.  Lucia initially said (when questioned by the parish priest, I think) that Mary appeared in a knee-length skirt (at a time and place where such dress would have been considered scandalous).  That in itself is enough evidence to toss the entire thing out.

Quote
2. The Sacrifice of the Cross also satisfies completely Divine Justice, yet these merits must be applied; also we must obtain a share in these merits through our co-operation.
Otherwise nobody would go to Hell, no?

Well, the theological band-aid of merits being "applied" is a subject for another day.  But anyway, the main point here is that you can't say Divine Justice DEMANDS such-and-such punishment of the world in the same way that it demands eternal punishment for a sinner who dies unrepentant.

QuoteAlso, look at other 'ridiculous' request in S.Scripture, such as the prophet demanding that the king hit an arrow on the ground several times in order to obtain the favor of victory over his enemies; or again, the prophet demanding that General Aman bathe in the Jordan seven times in order to obtain a cure, that he could just as easily done with a prayer, as the General himself noted.

But the fate of the entire world doesn't hang in the balance, now does it?  Again, if it did, and God punishes the entire world (including eternal torment for countless millions) because someone refused to take a bath in the Jordan, I would again conclude along with atheists that the Old Testament is just the ignorant musings of bronze age goat herders.



Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Traditionallyruralmom on November 29, 2018, 10:33:18 PM
do those who "don't do" Fatima not say the "O my Jesus" prayer at the end of every decade?

I do not.

Michael Wilson

A.C. Stated:
QuoteA prototype of the Pope, okay, but did Moses have the authority of a Pope, or the charism of infallibility.....

I don't think the comparison holds,
That kind of thing.   
As far as I can see Moses had more authority than any Pope. How many Popes spoke directly with God? Also, Moses was not only infallible, but also he was a source of new revelation; the whole Jewish religion was based on the prescriptions that Moses claimed to have received from God.
As far as this discussion goes; I agree that Fatima is not obligatory for any Catholic to hold, it is a private revelation; and while I do not agree with the so called "Fatima I" & "Fatima II" theory, I can see that the narration is open to this criticism.
Gerard,
I have read your argument about Fatima being an attempt on the authority of the Papacy, and I just don't agree with this. But since other people have done a better job than I could have done in responding, and you still hold to your position, I just don't see any point in continuing to discuss this particular issue.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Innocent Smith

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on November 30, 2018, 07:20:53 AM

This makes God like the tyrannical child in the Twilight Zone episode. I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to worship such a monster, and I have the ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY of conscience that I am correct in so doing.  This is why, I have concluded, a lot of trads often behave like petulant children.  They're only imitating the God they claim to worship.


Perfectly stated. And they are an absolute embarrassment.

Ferrara and Matt sound like ninnies. Because they are.
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Xavier on November 29, 2018, 06:12:25 AM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on November 28, 2018, 08:20:06 AM
Just so we're clear.

I don't care what the Saints say, I don't care what the Popes say, I don't care what the Doctors say, and I don't care what any priest says.

Oh dear. This is not a Catholic attitude at all. Catholics could answer, if you don't care what the Popes, Saints and Doctors say, then, your thinking is, at best, insufficiently Catholic and remains pagan in spirit.

Too bad.  I refuse to succumb to groupthink and propaganda.  No matter what.  Now, you will of course scream how awful it is that I would classify some of what they say as that, but it was clearly recognized as such by me both before and after my conversion - and my radar for that also allowed me to ferret out anti-Catholic and atheist groupthink and propaganda as well.

The desire for power is very strong in fallen human nature, and no human, even if he is a Saint, Pope, or Doctor, is exempt from it.  Even if it doesn't lead to outright dishonesty, it causes one to stretch the truth, exaggerate, polemicize to death, see the world in stark black-and-white terms, and engage in an orgy of self-righteous breast-beating.  These are, frankly, qualities I see in you, which you hide behind all your pious rhetoric.

And, there is more than a little hypocrisy here in traddom.  THE POPE has said, for instance, that the consecration of the four Bishops by Msgr. Lefebvre was a schismatic act.  But this time it isn't necessary to listen to what the Pope says.  THE POPE has said that Vatican II was promulgated "with Apostolic authority".  But this time it isn't necessary to listen to what the Pope says.  I could multiply examples like this for pages and pages.

QuoteYou've said, QMR, that you became a Catholic after you had a mystical experience. Very well. We accept your word, even without asking any public sign or miracle. But the Fatima visionaries are much more entitled to be accepted by Catholics because (1) their mystical experiences were attested and confirmed by public supernatural signs, and even more important (2) the Church formally authorized the revelations as credible.

Well, I don't care whether you accept my word or not.  And I don't deny the Fatima visionaries had some sort of experience.  What I do deny is what was related by them is an accurate representation of what was experienced.  The very definition of a "mystical" experience is that it is beyond words, beyond the capacity of human language and reason to describe.

QuoteThe sins of man are the cause of all the evils on the Earth. If God, King of kings, chooses in His Merciful Love to give us a way out from what our own sins have caused...

He already did.  It's called conversion or repentance.  That what's He wants, over and above anything else.  Burnt offerings and holocausts He no longer wishes.  Read the Scriptures, right?  That's what it says there.

Quote....we are obliged to obey Him to the letter.

What do you mean "we", kemosabe?  It is the Pope and only the Pope who can make this consecration.

But again, so the Pope disobeys.  Really, so what?  God desires our conversion more than anything but He is not going to bring it about because the Pope "disobeyed" and didn't say seven magic words?  Really?


Quote"Intimately I have spoken to Our Lord about the subject, and not too long ago I asked Him why He would not convert Russia without the Holy Father making that consecration?
"Because I want My whole Church to acknowledge that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so that it may extend its cult later on, and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred Heart."

Seriously.  This makes Our Lord look like a blithering idiot and an impotent doofus.  Why do you believe in such garbage?  To have devotion to the Immaculate Heart (which already exists) extended this consecration is NECESSARY, even for an omnipotent God?

Optatus

Quare - what do you make of God's treatment of the Egyptians in Exodus? He unleashed horrific catastrophe upon an entire kingdom because Pharao refused to subordinate his will to that of God's. This doesn't strike me as being especially different from refusing to say "seven magic words" in the prescribed manner. Was God a tyrannical child in dealing with Egypt the way He did?

Gerard

Quote from: Xavier on November 30, 2018, 06:06:14 AM
Quote from: GerardThe Devil already owns every non-Catholic religion.

Correct. And pretty much every non-Catholic religion opposes Fatima. Protestants oppose it because they dislike veneration of Our Lady, and devotion to the Immaculate Heart and the Rosary. Even Orthodox are not too fond of it because, unlike modern ecumenism, it implies they too have to retract errors (since about 100 years ago, the Orthodox Churches deny the Immaculate Conception) and end the schism by returning to Rome. Non-Christians reject it because they reject Christ and His Mother. So, which side are you on? The side of non-Catholics.

Ah....so Fatima is now the line by which Christ determines who is for Him and who is against Him? 

Muslims by the way, are devoted to the BVM in their own way and Fatima is the name of the daughter of Mohammed.  So some Catholics mistakenly think Fatima is how the Muslims will convert to Catholicism. 

I'm on the side of Our Lady of Lourdes, but I don't believe in Fatima.  How's that? 


QuoteOn the other hand, Fatima greatly bolsters the Church and confirms Catholics in the Faith and in devotion to Our Lady and Lord. What you are doing is like a Mexican in Gaudalupe saying, "Even though the Bishop approved the apparition to St. Juan Diego, I personally believe it was the devil that appeared". Satan does not cast out Satan. Do you know how the devils screamed in torment when the Rosary was revealed to St. Dominic and some 15,000 devils were driven out when a crowd of mere thousands prayed the Rosary? Well, hundreds of millions of Catholics have prayed the daily Rosary thanks to the urgent admonitions of Our Lady of Fatima. Many nations including Poland were delivered from Communism by this means. If then Fatima is from Satan, as your blasphemy claims, the Word of God lied, and Satan does cast out Satan.

Now St. Dominic is the fruit of Fatima?  Now the Rosary is exclusively a part of Fatima? Nobody was ever encouraged to say the rosary prior to Fatima or outside of Fatima?   Amazing.  It's like Vatican II with John Paul II and the modernists.  Michael Davies used to say they loved Vatican II so much it was a bigger deal for JPII than becoming Pope.   

QuoteSince that is impossible, clearly youre mistaken. The first thing Catholics ask, "Is the apparition approved by the Bishop?" If yes, that should be enough. No? Fine. Appeal to the Pope. Is it approved by the Pope? Yes. Then inquire no further, as it is certainly from God. And approved by Him through His Vicars. The Church will never change, re-open or revise Her judgment through Her Pontiffs that Fatima is from God.

Right.  Like the Novus Ordo. 

The first thing a Catholic asks about anything is, "Is it in line with the faith?" 

Why appeal to the Pope?  If the apparition tells the Pope what to do, the apparition is obviously the more important representative of God? Right? 

Or, if the Pope tells you an apparition is worthy of belief, inquire no further.  Except if the Pope decides to run the Church according to his authority and opts not to take orders from the apparition, well then, badger the Pope relentlessly, right? 

There's an incredible inconsistency to your position. 

Quote
In the Bible, we see Jesus ask St. Paul "Why are you persecuting Me"? God is persecuted when His Sacraments and holy dwellings are profaned, when His saints in whom He lives are oppressed. Heaven also suffers as a Father or Mother suffers out of love when the prodigal child is far from home; not as the child suffers out of his own fault, but as love and compassion in willing the child to come home quickly and praying for him or her causes a kind of loving suffering. The greater the love, the greater the suffering. But love is greatest in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Therefore, their Hearts suffer more than that of all other Saints in heaven. And so it is our duty not to offend and oppress them further with untrue and unjust denials of their wonders and miracles, but to believe, console and make reparation to The Twin Hearts.

Just because someone is persecuted does not mean they are suffering.  Someone shooting an arrow at a battleship may be "persecuting" the battleship but the battleship isn't suffering.  God is omnipotent and infinitely happy in and of Himself. 

The BVM and all saints are beholding the beatific vision, they are incapable of suffering. 

There is no suffering in Heaven. 


Innocent Smith

Quote from: Optatus on November 30, 2018, 08:36:34 AM
Quare - what do you make of God's treatment of the Egyptians in Exodus? He unleashed horrific catastrophe upon an entire kingdom because Pharao refused to subordinate his will to that of God's. This doesn't strike me as being especially different from refusing to say "seven magic words" in the prescribed manner. Was God a tyrannical child in dealing with Egypt the way He did?

You are aware that after the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of God at the Cross that we are now living in the Age of Grace?

Are you aware of that?

But thanks for helping to reveal that Fatima is not only kind of Protestant, but also very Old Testament. Which, of course, is always a symptom of Protestantism. Where to go for authority when you are a Protestant except the Old Testament? As you know they have no pope nor do they have connections to the Apostles.
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.