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The Church Courtyard => Ask a Traditionalist => Topic started by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 02:30:14 PM

Title: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
So I'm in college, and I've noticed a lot of students doing something and I've done it myself as well at times, but I just suddenly wondered today if it could be considered cheating?

In many classes we are given homework assignments, and very often you can google the questions and find the exact answers.  I've always avoided doing this because it obviously reduces the amount of learning that actually occurs.  But then I thought today that this may actually be considered cheating.  I'm not sure because in an open-note assignment where the professor has already stated the the problems are identical to ones that are found on practice worksheets, in the textbook, in lectures, and other places, to me it doesn't seem that different compared to opening the textbook and looking to find the answer.  The difference is that you are not working out the problems.  What if you worked the problems when they provided the worked problem solutions and tried to understand how they did them?  I just don't know.

I am also fairly scrupulous so I'm taking this worry with a grain of salt.  I'll try to ask my priest about it but in the meantime, was wondering what you all think. 
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: queen.saints on October 15, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
Is the work going towards your grade? Sometimes homework is just extra and only tests count, in which case you can do it however you like. If it is going towards your overall grade, that would probably be cheating.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on October 15, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
Is the work going towards your grade? Sometimes homework is just extra and only tests count, in which case you can do it however you like. If it is going towards your overall grade, that would probably be cheating.

It's graded.  A small proportion of the overall grade, but graded nonetheless. 

I haven't done it since having this thought.  But now it's making me question all kinds I have been doing.  :-(

Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: MilesChristi on October 15, 2015, 03:19:13 PM
Cheating yes...only question is the gravity of the matter...

which would be based on how much you were involved with it and what is the matter you are cheating on...
and the gravity on cheating for education in the first place...

but cheating and sin it definitely is...
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: queen.saints on October 15, 2015, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on October 15, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
Is the work going towards your grade? Sometimes homework is just extra and only tests count, in which case you can do it however you like. If it is going towards your overall grade, that would probably be cheating.

It's graded.  A small proportion of the overall grade, but graded nonetheless. 

I haven't done it since having this thought.  But now it's making me question all kinds I have been doing.  :-(

Cheating is really confusing when you're in school and you just want to get stuff done. It makes the part of your brain that tells you it's wrong turn completely off, so it's great that you are seeing even iffy things like this, especially if everyone was doing it and you feel like it's normal or you'd be at a disadvantage if you didn't.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Flora on October 15, 2015, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
So I'm in college, and I've noticed a lot of students doing something and I've done it myself as well at times, but I just suddenly wondered today if it could be considered cheating?

In many classes we are given homework assignments, and very often you can google the questions and find the exact answers.  I've always avoided doing this because it obviously reduces the amount of learning that actually occurs.  But then I thought today that this may actually be considered cheating.  I'm not sure because in an open-note assignment where the professor has already stated the the problems are identical to ones that are found on practice worksheets, in the textbook, in lectures, and other places, to me it doesn't seem that different compared to opening the textbook and looking to find the answer.  The difference is that you are not working out the problems.  What if you worked the problems when they provided the worked problem solutions and tried to understand how they did them?  I just don't know.

I am also fairly scrupulous so I'm taking this worry with a grain of salt.  I'll try to ask my priest about it but in the meantime, was wondering what you all think.

If it's open-book and you're allowed to use all the resources available to you, then looking up the answers isn't necessarily cheating. If you don't understand how to solve a problem, then you can very well learn from studying the solution. However, it's always best to try to solve the problems yourself first. The kids who just copy solutions are going to do poorly on exams. And exam % > homework %.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Heinrich on October 15, 2015, 03:39:05 PM
SOunds like a lazy professor. Knowingly giving you "problems" with the answers available? There are mechanisms to prevent this. What you describe is intellectual laziness and slothful. 
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Quote from: Flora on October 15, 2015, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
So I'm in college, and I've noticed a lot of students doing something and I've done it myself as well at times, but I just suddenly wondered today if it could be considered cheating?

In many classes we are given homework assignments, and very often you can google the questions and find the exact answers.  I've always avoided doing this because it obviously reduces the amount of learning that actually occurs.  But then I thought today that this may actually be considered cheating.  I'm not sure because in an open-note assignment where the professor has already stated the the problems are identical to ones that are found on practice worksheets, in the textbook, in lectures, and other places, to me it doesn't seem that different compared to opening the textbook and looking to find the answer.  The difference is that you are not working out the problems.  What if you worked the problems when they provided the worked problem solutions and tried to understand how they did them?  I just don't know.

I am also fairly scrupulous so I'm taking this worry with a grain of salt.  I'll try to ask my priest about it but in the meantime, was wondering what you all think.

If it's open-book and you're allowed to use all the resources available to you, then looking up the answers isn't necessarily cheating. If you don't understand how to solve a problem, then you can very well learn from studying the solution. However, it's always best to try to solve the problems yourself first. The kids who just copy solutions are going to do poorly on exams. And exam % > homework %.

This is what I am conflicted about.  Say I am doing, for example, biology homework.  And I am supposed to answer a question about mitosis.  I'm supposed to give a one-word answer, and I don't know the answer.  I am allowed to use notes or other resources to complete the assignment. 

Can I look through the textbook, or lecture notes, find the one-word answer, and fill in the blank?  Honestly, I don't see why not.  That doesn't even remotely seem to be cheating to me.  Is it wise to do so mindlessly?  No.  I won't know the explanation and I probably won't understand the question if it appears on the exam.  But it doesn't seem sinful.

Say I am doing math homework.  I am supposed to answer a question.  The answer is the the only thing that matters (say it's multiple choice).  I have no idea how to solve it.   So I google the question, or look through the practice sheet, see the answer is C, and write that down.  This seems iffy to me.  But how is it any different than the above scenario?

I'm not trying to find loopholes, or justify sin if there is any.  I am honestly confused and would like to avoid doing this if it is actually sinful.  (I'm not saying that you are accusing me of such.)
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on October 15, 2015, 03:39:05 PM
SOunds like a lazy professor. Knowingly giving you "problems" with the answers available? There are mechanisms to prevent this. What you describe is intellectual laziness and slothful.

I think he pulls the problems out of textbooks.  Otherwise he would have to invent them, I guess.

Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Flora on October 15, 2015, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Quote from: Flora on October 15, 2015, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
So I'm in college, and I've noticed a lot of students doing something and I've done it myself as well at times, but I just suddenly wondered today if it could be considered cheating?

In many classes we are given homework assignments, and very often you can google the questions and find the exact answers.  I've always avoided doing this because it obviously reduces the amount of learning that actually occurs.  But then I thought today that this may actually be considered cheating.  I'm not sure because in an open-note assignment where the professor has already stated the the problems are identical to ones that are found on practice worksheets, in the textbook, in lectures, and other places, to me it doesn't seem that different compared to opening the textbook and looking to find the answer.  The difference is that you are not working out the problems.  What if you worked the problems when they provided the worked problem solutions and tried to understand how they did them?  I just don't know.

I am also fairly scrupulous so I'm taking this worry with a grain of salt.  I'll try to ask my priest about it but in the meantime, was wondering what you all think.

If it's open-book and you're allowed to use all the resources available to you, then looking up the answers isn't necessarily cheating. If you don't understand how to solve a problem, then you can very well learn from studying the solution. However, it's always best to try to solve the problems yourself first. The kids who just copy solutions are going to do poorly on exams. And exam % > homework %.

This is what I am conflicted about.  Say I am doing, for example, biology homework.  And I am supposed to answer a question about mitosis.  I'm supposed to give a one-word answer, and I don't know the answer.  I am allowed to use notes or other resources to complete the assignment. 

Can I look through the textbook, or lecture notes, find the one-word answer, and fill in the blank?  Honestly, I don't see why not.  That doesn't even remotely seem to be cheating to me.  Is it wise to do so mindlessly?  No.  I won't know the explanation and I probably won't understand the question if it appears on the exam.  But it doesn't seem sinful.

Say I am doing math homework.  I am supposed to answer a question.  The answer is the the only thing that matters (say it's multiple choice).  I have no idea how to solve it.   So I google the question, or look through the practice sheet, see the answer is C, and write that down.  This seems iffy to me.  But how is it any different than the above scenario?

I'm not trying to find loopholes, or justify sin if there is any.  I am honestly confused and would like to avoid doing this if it is actually sinful.  (I'm not saying that you are accusing me of such.)

That's not sinful. Homework is there for you to learn. It makes up a small percentage of the overall grade as an incentive for students to actually do it. Homework is not a quiz or exam. If the homework is open-notes/open-book, then by all means read the solutions if you don't know the answer. What are you supposed to do? Just leave the answer blank and never answer it because you didn't know the solution upon first glance? It's homework for a reason -- it's for struggling through and learning. Use all resources available, including the solutions manual.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Flora on October 15, 2015, 05:00:46 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on October 15, 2015, 03:39:05 PM
SOunds like a lazy professor. Knowingly giving you "problems" with the answers available? There are mechanisms to prevent this. What you describe is intellectual laziness and slothful.

I think he pulls the problems out of textbooks.  Otherwise he would have to invent them, I guess.

I don't think the professor is necessarily lazy. A lot of undergraduate math/biology homework consists of regurgitated problems from year to year, textbook to textbook, school to school. There are only so many questions you can ask pertaining to a topic. Personally, I like having solutions available so that I can quickly check my answers afterward and learn from my mistakes. Waiting for homework to be graded and handed back severely delays the learning process. It's college. You're supposed to be in charge of your own learning. Not have answers withheld because you're too lazy to use them correctly.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Kaesekopf on October 15, 2015, 05:09:20 PM
Homework is practice for you to master and understand the material.  I wouldn't necessarily consider this cheating, but I would see it as a detriment to your ability to master the material.  Unless you use it as a guide or a help if you get stuck (how do I integrate this certain function?) and you move further in the problem.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
can you tell us what subject

what is a n example of a question
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
can you tell us what subject

what is a n example of a question

Well, the ones in question are math problems, and they are multiple choice questions.  If I truly have no clue how to do them, and the deadline for homework submission is approaching, then I'd try looking for the answers.  Ideally, I would try to understand how that answer came to be...doesn't always happen though.  Usually it's more like, "This is due, I'm going to put this down and look at the answer later and see how it is worked" but sometimes I procrastinate and that never happens...

Of course that comes back to bite me at exam time sometimes. 
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Arun on October 15, 2015, 07:02:11 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
can you tell us what subject

what is a n example of a question

Well, the ones in question are math problems, and they are multiple choice questions.  If I truly have no clue how to do them, and the deadline for homework submission is approaching, then I'd try looking for the answers.  Ideally, I would try to understand how that answer came to be...doesn't always happen though.  Usually it's more like, "This is due, I'm going to put this down and look at the answer later and see how it is worked" but sometimes I procrastinate and that never happens...

Of course that comes back to bite me at exam time sometimes.

Math. Not even once.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 07:24:17 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
can you tell us what subject

what is a n example of a question

Well, the ones in question are math problems, and they are multiple choice questions.  If I truly have no clue how to do them, and the deadline for homework submission is approaching, then I'd try looking for the answers.  Ideally, I would try to understand how that answer came to be...doesn't always happen though.  Usually it's more like, "This is due, I'm going to put this down and look at the answer later and see how it is worked" but sometimes I procrastinate and that never happens...

Of course that comes back to bite me at exam time somethey'retimes.
they're not asking you toshow your work?!
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 07:24:17 PM
Quote from: Amaryllis on October 15, 2015, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
can you tell us what subject

what is a n example of a question

Well, the ones in question are math problems, and they are multiple choice questions.  If I truly have no clue how to do them, and the deadline for homework submission is approaching, then I'd try looking for the answers.  Ideally, I would try to understand how that answer came to be...doesn't always happen though.  Usually it's more like, "This is due, I'm going to put this down and look at the answer later and see how it is worked" but sometimes I procrastinate and that never happens...

Of course that comes back to bite me at exam time somethey'retimes.
they're not asking you toshow your work?!

Nope.  It's a statistical analysis class, so not quite calculus, but yeah, no work is shown.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: james03 on October 15, 2015, 07:33:31 PM
No, it is not cheating.  Homework is given so you can learn the material more fully on your own.  You can use any resource.

Generally the grade for homework is there as a motivation to get you to do it.  It is usually a small part of your grade.

I recommend trying to do the work, then using the computer resources if you get stuck.  Also, check your work to make sure you got the right answer.  Practising how to do it the wrong way makes no sense.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Chestertonian on October 15, 2015, 08:17:02 PM
i remember seeing a quote sometime here shared which wss apt.virtue is based on Who we are when no one is watching

are you there to get easy grades or are you there to learn

it's your money (or your parents money( and it is up to you too own your academic progress

if it is math i would say yes, looking at the answer is not bad as long as you're checking your work

when i took math the answers were right in the textbook

this
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Akavit on October 16, 2015, 12:25:44 AM
It is cheating if you use automated online calculation tools to obtain answers.  It's not cheating if you are seeking deeper understanding of the mathematical theory so that you're more likely to solve these problems correctly in the future.

Due to my education background I've done very few tests and almost all my studies were focused upon understanding problems and learning how to arrive at solutions.  My teacher (home-schooling mother) used to even give me a second chance to do any problems that were incorrect when I was doing the Saxon program in high school.  If I got a problem wrong, she marked them and returned the worksheet to me.  This gave me the chance to determine if my errors were simple mistakes or a lack of understanding.  The first could be corrected by developing an organized approach to making calculations.  The latter was solved by re-reading the textbook until I had a solid grasp of the material.  Returning corrected answers gave me 1/2 credit to up the grades

If I had internet access at the time, it probably would have been allowed as a research tool.  It wasn't available but I was allowed to use any textbook available as a resource.

It must have worked for me.  In the second year of high school I averaged 2-3 wrong answers out of 30.  By the end of the 4th year most problem sets were 100% correct the first time through.

Saxon had the answers to 15 of the 30 problems in the textbook so it was usually possible to figure out if one had a proper understanding of the lessons before turning the work in to the teacher.  A good teacher will require all work to be completely written out so it's not possible to just copy answers from the book onto the answer sheet.


A bit of advice: never simply write answers down.  Always show each step of the work.  This lets the teacher know you are not just copying answers and it also helps develop a proper understanding of each problem.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: OCLittleFlower on October 16, 2015, 04:07:50 AM
I'm with others, especially Akavit -- copying math answers won't do any good.

Now if it was something like, what was the name of Tsar Nicholas II's son, I don't think it would matter if you google it or find it in the textbook to get the answer -- but then, history homework tends to be more than fill-in-the-blank at the university level.  So, you would be looking up the boy's name in the context of an essay about the effects of Tsarevich Alexei's health on the fall of the Russian monarchy.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Sockpuppet on October 16, 2015, 06:35:46 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on October 15, 2015, 03:39:05 PM
SOunds like a lazy professor. Knowingly giving you "problems" with the answers available? There are mechanisms to prevent this. What you describe is intellectual laziness and slothful.

This
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Gardener on October 16, 2015, 07:03:03 AM
My college uses an online math application for homework. Being something which is programmed, it will often reject a right answer because it's not in a format which has been programmed as "right".

I often have to google how something would be expressed in interval notation or whatever format it wants, because on tests and in class we are allowed to use multiple correct expressions (set-builder, interval, etc.). The professor has told us straight up he doesn't care if we use interval or set builder, etc. on tests. He's concerned with mathematical correctness, not if we did something in a rigid format (for example, some answers are very convoluted when expressed in interval notation vs set-builder).

I don't see how that's any different from what you're doing.

Further, if you are doing this to see how in the world something was even done, or is done, or should be done, that is not cheating but learning.

It's scrupulous to treat homework like an exam, and probably detrimental unless you have already self-demonstrated mastery of the concept and wish to test your mettle.

Homework is for learning and confirming that learning. Tests test your level of having learned.

Otherwise, one might as well consider calculators as cheating.

As long as you are not resting on the laurels of google, and are just getting done what needs to be done with the intention to go back over it until you get it, it's simply another variant of learning.

If you have a particularly rough time of doing a type of problem consistently (or if it's just work intensive), and you have the ability to program a calculator, you could also program yours for input of variables on a certain type of problem and then test that against multiple known problems/solutions to make sure your program isn't just good for one particular problem. I did that with the quadratic formula because it's just such a PITA to write out every time. Is that "cheating"? Some would say yes... but I guarantee you that mathematicians do it every day. So do programmers and system admins, etc. People who are smart only do something from scratch once, if possible. It maximizes the ability to do other things which cannot be done from scratch or serves as a proof for from-scratch work.

Given that college is supposed to prepare one for the work world, I find the mentality of treating it as above the work world in standards of conduct to be idiotic.

Every day on the job is a test, so I guess most of the world are cheaters by the standard expressed by some here.

No reason to cut the brush next to a perfectly good trail.
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Arun on October 21, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.ebaumsworld.com%2FmediaFiles%2Fpicture%2F2117880%2F84348036.jpg&hash=c2c21455f4c338d8ebd8b6b45a4fdc8c19374d8c)
Title: Re: Is This Cheating?
Post by: Amaryllis on October 22, 2015, 10:11:08 AM
Quote from: Arun on October 21, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.ebaumsworld.com%2FmediaFiles%2Fpicture%2F2117880%2F84348036.jpg&hash=c2c21455f4c338d8ebd8b6b45a4fdc8c19374d8c)

:lol: