Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?

[Mono no aware]

Dear Pon, in the sacred Book of the Macchabees, we read that the Prophet Jeremiah was praying for the Holy City during that time of crisis. Also, the Holy High Priest Onias, who had passed into eternity a while earlier, was praying. Limbo is an intermediate place for souls. There in Limbo, the souls can do all that God permits them to do, except they cannot see the Beatific vision as of yet until Christ had come.

Gracias, Xavier.  But there seems to be some confusion.  Even if the souls in the Limbo of the Fathers were permitted to pray, this is still not indicative of a practice among the Hebrews of praying to those souls in Limbo for their intercession.  That's what's in question.

[Mono no aware]

The passage doesn't end there, Pon. "Visitors typically recite prayers of psalms and bring with them petitions of prayers written on pieces of paper which are then torn and left on the grave." And this in 21st century Judaism. Clearly this is just "honouring" ones ancestors, right? I presented what the Talmud says about Caleb, which right or wrong and approvingly or unapprovingly shows that prayer for intercession from the "dead" was known among the Jews as a cultural phenomenon and one believed to go back to Mosaic times. I showed you further what it says about visits to graveyards on fast days.

None of those examples showed people praying to the dead.  Traveling to the tombs of the dead and praying there (or leaving written prayers) is not the same thing.  Otherwise we might as well conclude that Protestants pray to the dead when they visit their ancestors' graves.  The question is, who are these prayers being directed to?  A Protestant is probably starting off with, "Heavenly Father ... " 

Ok. Yes, I say they did. I say they venerated images, prayed for intercession from saints, invoked angels, worshipped Jesus as Son of the Most High, and honoured the Mother of Yahweh in the Solomonic temple as Queen of Heaven and Tree of Life.

This is most intriguing.  Can you cite some instances in the Old Testament record?

That doesn't change that Semites after whom we've named "Semitism", or Hebrews, as a people, practised [polytheistic worship].

Correct; that is not in doubt.  At one point they worshiped a golden calf.  But this (and the other instances of their whoring after other gods) are examples of faithlessness to the God of the Hebrews and the religious diktats thereof.  Hebraism is a devotion to the God of the Hebrews, otherwise we are talking about their various forays into apostasy from that religion.  "Perfidious."

Fair enough, but it's still praying for saintly intercession.

It's far too ambiguous for such certainty.

[Xavier]

Gracias, dear Pon. Always a pleasure to converse with you. But, my dear Agnostic and Platonist, when are you coming back to life in Christ? There is nothing so wonderful as a life lived in Union with Jesus Christ in all the whole wide world, and that blessed life is open to all of us, and especially you, dear Pon, who are so much beloved to God. And the Grace of Sacramental Communion and tasting once more the Wonders of God's Love in the Blessed Sacrament, are but one good heartfelt Confession away. Jesus Christ is waiting for you.

Not to get too involved in the other thing, but I think Our Lord relating the incident of Dives and Lazarus shows both (1) the Jews knew and acknowledged the souls of the just go to Abraham's bosom, what we call limbus patrum, or limbo of Abraham and the Fathers (2) The intercession of Abraham was sought. From this, it seems to follow, though of course Christ revealed and manifested all these things much more fully, that the Jewish people too had a general idea of the the importance and the power of the intercession of the saints.

Luk 16: 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.The rich man instinctively cries out to Abraham, and invokes his intercession for help. The hour was late then, as he was doing only now what he should have done earlier in life. And yet from the passage, a theological case could be made that prayer to the Saints was, in a partial sense, known to the Jews. God bless.

[Mono no aware]

Thank you again, Xavier.  It needs only be pointed out, however, that the intercession in that passage is asked for by someone already in hell.  The parable of Dives and Lazarus definitely tells us something about what Jews believed was the commerce between souls in the afterlife.  But the question regards the living.  If there was a practice among the Jews themselves of praying to the dead, I think there would be more than just a few passages that demand a generous spin.

[Xavier]

Ok, Pon. It seems 2 Macc 15:16 is fairly demonstrative, because Judas Macchabeus even received a cool golden sword from the Prophet Jeremias/Jeremiah! How can this be if they did not have a general belief in the power of the intercession of the saints? Sure, the Saints may not always send down awesome golden swords from Heaven, but surely they did believe they would help in other ways at least.

2 Mac 15:

15 Stretching out his right hand, Jeremiah presented a gold sword to Judas. As he gave it to him he said,
16"Accept this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you shall shatter your adversaries.
17 Encouraged by Judas' words, so noble and capable of instilling valor and stirring young hearts to courage, they determined not merely to march, but to charge gallantly and decide the issue by hand-to-hand combat with the utmost courage, since city, sanctuary and temple were in danger."

Do you consider this an example of Judas relying on the intercession of Onias and Jeremiah? Or is the issue uncertain to you?

God bless. [P.S. I would really urge those who can to try to do the Hours of the Passion on the other thread. Jesus promises all who make it that we will save souls whenever we pray it in love, for God and for souls, in union with His Divine Will. We will become holy too. Take care.]

[Mono no aware]

Ok, Pon. It seems 2 Macc 15:16 is fairly demonstrative, because Judas Macchabeus even received a cool golden sword from the Prophet Jeremias/Jeremiah! How can this be if they did not have a general belief in the power of the intercession of the saints?

Do you consider this an example of Judas relying on the intercession of Onias and Jeremiah? Or is the issue uncertain to you?

I think we might be at an impasse.  This passage refers to a "dream, or a waking vision" which Judas had.  But even granting it as literal commerce between the righteous in Limbo and the souls on the earth, it seems an un-asked-for gift.  There is no mention (so far as I can tell) of Judas praying to Jeremiah specifically.  That would be the criteria: people praying to the dead for their intercession.  Thank you for your patience.

[Xavier]

Ok. You're welcome. I should thank you, Pon, as your questions make me study the Holy Bible more. But I think the idea is this, if the Saints and Angels are praying for you, and they are, then you should ask their intercession. We see the same concept in the Apocalypse of St. John later, when the beloved Apostle is taken to Heaven now fully opened; and sees Angels offering golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the Saints. The Apostle of Love sees the Saints in Heaven themselves interceding, and St. John also records Martyrs slain under the Altars praying to God.

But let us take another OT example, as deals with the intercession of the Angel St. Raphael. Would you agree on intercession of Angels?

Raphael maketh himself known. http://www.drbo.org/chapter/17012.htm

[1] Then Tobias called to him his son, and said to him: What can we give to this holy man, that is come with thee? [2] Tobias answering, said to his father: Father, what wages shall we give him? or what can be worthy of his benefits? [3] He conducted me and brought me safe again, he received the money of Gabelus, he caused me to have my wife, and he chased from her the evil spirit, he gave joy to her parents, myself he delivered from being devoured by the fish, thee also he hath made to see the light of heaven, and we are filled with all good things through him. What can we give him sufficient for these things? [4] But I beseech thee, my father, to desire him, that he would vouchsafe to accept one half of all things that have been brought. [5] So the father and the son, calling him, took him aside: and began to desire him that he would vouchsafe to accept of half of all things that they had brought.

[6] Then he said to them secretly: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. [7] For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. [8] Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold: [9] For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting. [10] But they that commit sin and iniquity, are enemies to their own soul.

[11] I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you. [12] When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. [13] And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. [14] And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son's wife from the devil. [15] For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.

[16] And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face. [17] And the angel said to them: Peace be to you, fear not. [18] For when I was with you, I was there by the will of God: bless ye him, and sing praises to him. [19] I seemed indeed to eat and to drink with you: but I use an invisible meat and drink, which cannot be seen by men. [20] It is time therefore that I return to him that sent me: but bless ye God, and publish all his wonderful works.

[21] And when he had said these things, he was taken from their sight, and they could see him no more. [22] Then they lying prostrate for three hours upon their face, blessed God: and rising up, they told all his wonderful works.

A very good practice is to have the Holy Names of Jesus, Mary, St. Joseph, St. Michael or one of the Saints always on our lips. We could say, Jesus, Mary, I love you, save souls. St. Joseph, St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, pray for us, and ever obtain for us Grace in all our needs. Amen.

[mikemac]

"O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children ..." Baruch 3:4

[Kreuzritter]

None of those examples showed people praying to the dead.  Traveling to the tombs of the dead and praying there (or leaving written prayers) is not the same thing.  Otherwise we might as well conclude that Protestants pray to the dead when they visit their ancestors' graves.  The question is, who are these prayers being directed to?  A Protestant is probably starting off with, "Heavenly Father ... " 

The examples from the Talmud and Zohar do. And, again, these are not prayers for the dead; they are prayers and requests made and left at the burial sites of perceived holy men. Protestants do not do this. It makes no sense for anyone to be doing this unless they believe in some quasi-magical or intercessory power provided by the sacred space or the dead person.

Ok. Yes, I say they did. I say they venerated images, prayed for intercession from saints, invoked angels, worshipped Jesus as Son of the Most High, and honoured the Mother of Yahweh in the Solomonic temple as Queen of Heaven and Tree of Life.

This is most intriguing.  Can you cite some instances in the Old Testament record?

Coming up.

That doesn't change that Semites after whom we've named "Semitism", or Hebrews, as a people, practised [polytheistic worship].

Correct; that is not in doubt.  At one point they worshiped a golden calf.  But this (and the other instances of their whoring after other gods) are examples of faithlessness to the God of the Hebrews and the religious diktats thereof.  Hebraism is a devotion to the God of the Hebrews, otherwise we are talking about their various forays into apostasy from that religion.  "Perfidious."

You're now far away from your original assertions about "Semitism". I quote:

Virtually all of the pre-Christian European cultures were polytheistic in devotion and monistic in philosophy

But the desert breeds something else entirely.

Islam is more Semitic than Christianity, and Semitism is alien to the Western mind. 

You seem to have changed the sense of "Semitism" from something cultural, born of the desert and Semitic mind, to just "devotion to the God of the Hebrews", although how you invoke it it's more projecting a sterile, ahistorical, by-the-book idea of Judaism onto ancient Hebrew culture.

Again, your claim was that Christianity, being "Semitism", had to be tranformed because it was alien to the Western mind. But this "Semitism" was never the ubiquitous, monolithic cultural norm of the Hebrews that this statement entails, and the Empire wasn't Christianised by a book: it was Christianised by living people of whom we cannot say, for all the reasons above, that they practised and taught "Semitism".

Fair enough, but it's still praying for saintly intercession.

It's far too ambiguous for such certainty.

[/quote]

The Jews interpreting Jesus' cries as cries to Elijah makes no sense if there was no cutural context to provide the possibility and likelihood of such a sense. People don't mishear words and project a meaning onto them in a vacuum, and even less so a group of people.

[Mono no aware]

But let us take another OT example, as deals with the intercession of the Angel St. Raphael. Would you agree on intercession of Angels?

Of course.  But again, in this passage, Tobias and his son are not praying to Raphael for his intercession.  He is visiting them in human disguise, like the angels who visited Abraham and Lot in Genesis.  The angel intercedes for them unbidden, just as Jeremiah was seen to offer Judas a golden sword unbidden.  I am not denying that in the OT there was much traffic between the heavens and the earth.  Even praying to Michael was not unheard of, though it was proscribed by the authorities:

The idea that Michael was the advocate of the Jews became so prevalent that in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and His people, Michael came to occupy a certain place in the Jewish liturgy.  Apart from the word , which occurs frequently and which refers to Michael, there are two prayers beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-?alir (Bartolocci, "Bibl. Rab. Magna," i. 192 et seq.), and the other by Judah b. Samuel he-?asid (MS. De Cambrai No. 946, fol. 110). But appeal to Michael seems to have been more common in ancient times. Thus Jeremiah is said (Baruch Apoc. Ethiopic, ix. 5) to have addressed a prayer to him. "When a man is in need he must pray directly to God, and neither to Michael nor to Gabriel" (Yer. Ber. ix. 13a).

I am questioning whether there are examples of the Hebrews praying to the dead for their intercession.

[Mono no aware]

"O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children ..." Baruch 3:4

This prayer is directed to God, not to the dead.  It is not being denied that the dead in She'ol could pray.  The question is whether the Jews believed that they themselves could (and did) pray to the dead to intercede for them.

[Mono no aware]

The examples from the Talmud and Zohar do. And, again, these are not prayers for the dead; they are prayers and requests made and left at the burial sites of perceived holy men. Protestants do not do this. It makes no sense for anyone to be doing this unless they believe in some quasi-magical or intercessory power provided by the sacred space or the dead person.

Not so at all.  Protestants do this quite frequently.  At Protestant funerals you will even hear Protestants tearfully lapsing into talking to the dead during their eulogies: "Kaylee-Ann, honey, I know you're up there smiling down on us.  You'll always be Momma's little angel, and now you're God's angel too."  You can find notes and written prayers at the shrines that go up at fatal accident sites.  Along with the bouquets of flowers and teddy bears, there are notes and cards and letters.  None of this could be fairly cited, though, as evidence that Protestants believe in praying to the dead for their intercession.

You seem to have changed the sense of "Semitism" from something cultural, born of the desert and Semitic mind, to just "devotion to the God of the Hebrews", although how you invoke it it's more projecting a sterile, ahistorical, by-the-book idea of Judaism onto ancient Hebrew culture.

Which is why I was willing to change it to "Hebraism" because you wanted to be more particular.  I was using "Semitism" in the way we commonly use the terms "philo-Semitism" and "anti-Semitism" to refer to the admiration or detestation of Jews and things Jewish.  I would never be so ignorant (and I hope you'll credit me with this much) as to claim that a desert breeds only strict monotheists, or that all the Semitic peoples were such.  I do think, though, that the desert landscape and the harshness of desert existence breeds a different sort of psychology from the comparatively moister and more verdant terrain of Europe.  And I do believe this has something (though I wouldn't venture a percentage on it) with the emergence from an original Semitic polytheism of the singular, exclusivist, and jealous "tantrums-and-chastisements" God, as if Zeus and Ares were merged into one who would brook no second, whereas the Hellenes grew out of their polytheism into monistic, rationalist, and stoic philosophy (of which your detestation is duly noted).

Again, your claim was that Christianity, being "Semitism", had to be tranformed because it was alien to the Western mind. But this "Semitism" was never the ubiquitous, monolithic cultural norm of the Hebrews that this statement entails, and the Empire wasn't Christianised by a book: it was Christianised by living people of whom we cannot say, for all the reasons above, that they practised and taught "Semitism".

The New Testament is a Hebraism.  How is this controversial?  Unless you are a Marcionite or Gnostic Christian, the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are the same god.  This is quite clear in the NT and all the Fathers.  It is simply a supercession.  From the synagogue to the Church.  This is Catholic teaching.

The Jews interpreting Jesus' cries as cries to Elijah makes no sense if there was no cutural context to provide the possibility and likelihood of such a sense. People don't mishear words and project a meaning onto them in a vacuum, and even less so a group of people.

But we can't know this, because the evidence that would support your contention comes afterwards.  So there is no way of knowing it's not an interpolation, which is damaging enough, and anyway Elijah wasn't dead.  Calling out for a living person to come to your aid (even if the person is in occultation in the heavens) is different from the practice of praying the dead to intercede.

[Kreuzritter]

Again you've just skipped over my references to the Talmud and Zohar which show that Jews acknowledge intercessory prayer as a Jewish cultural phenomenon:

Why  do  they go  to  the  cemetery?  With  regard  to  this  there  is  a  difference  of  opinion  between  R.  Levi  b.  Hama  and  R.  Hanina.  One  says:  We  are  as  the  dead  before  Thee;  and  the  other  says:  In  order  that  the  dead  should intercede for mercy on our behalf. What is the difference between them?—The difference is with regard to going to the cemetery of Gentiles

You can find notes and written prayers at the shrines that go up at fatal accident sites.  Along with the bouquets of flowers and teddy bears, there are notes and cards and letters.

These are eulogies and prayers for the dead. They are not prayers and requests made in the Jewish context under discussion. You're nit-picking texts and drawing false analogies because, respectfully, you're speaking from a place of ignorance of what the Jews who do this actually intend and believe about what they're doing.

For by visiting  these  graves  of  the  righteous  and  by  prostrating  oneself  upon  them,  the  Holy  One, blessed be he, grants favors even if one is totally unworthy of them. - Sefer Ha'midot

Through close physical proximity to the saint, and by touching his or her relics  and  artifacts,  one  could  invoke  the  berakhah  implicitly  associated  with  such  figures, by assuming that a commitment was made to "convince" the saint to intervene on behalf  of  those  in  need.  During  this  process  prayers  were  recited  and  donations  and  contributions were pledged to the saint's shrine or cult in exchange for the saint's mi-raculous powers to help the sick and those in need. - Ephraim Shoham-Steiner


Prayer in that place will be more favorably  received  as  that  is  where  the  bodies,  on  which  the  divine  spirit  had  rested,  are  found. - Rabbi  Nissim  ben  Reuben  Gerondi

the cemetery is the resting place of the righteous. Therefore it is a holy and ritually pure place and prayer is most acceptable on holy soil. [However], those who prostrate themselves on  the  tombs  of  the  righteous  and  pray  should  not  focus  on  the  dead  person`s  body  lying  there but should rather beseech God, blessed be he, for mercy based on the spiritual merits of the righteous dead who lie in the earth, may their souls be bound in the bond of life - MaHaRIL

A  certain  community  wanted  to  leave  their  city  and  move  elsewhere.  One  of  the  dead  appeared  in  a  dream  vision  to  one  of  the  community  members  and  said:  Don't  leave  us  for  we  take  great  pleasure  when  you  come  and  visit  us  in  the  graveyard  and  I  therefore  notify  you that if you abandon us you will all be killed. However community members didn't fear and weren't mindful of this warning and they were all killed. - Book of the Pious

... there are  quite  a  few  great  ones  who  have  objected  to  this  practice  and  have  labeled  it  'necromancy'  (Deut.  18.11),  for  most  of  the  unlearned  folks  and  women  beseech  the  dead  as  mediators  between  them  and  their  maker  blessed  be  he. - Rabbi Moses Minsk

Again, this is not to suggest that "orthodox Judaism" looks favourably upon such practices, or that there is a singular understanding of them, but there isn't and never has been a "Judaic" monolith, and they have been part-and-parcel of Hebrew culture through history. Christianity emerged, with its practices, out of one segment of that culture.

None of this could be fairly cited, though, as evidence that Protestants believe in praying to the dead for their intercession.

Obviously, but the analogy with Jews visiting shrines of holy men and making prayer requests is false.

Which is why I was willing to change it to "Hebraism" because you wanted to be more particular.  I was using "Semitism" in the way we commonly use the terms "philo-Semitism" and "anti-Semitism" to refer to the admiration or detestation of Jews and things Jewish.  I would never be so ignorant (and I hope you'll credit me with this much) as to claim that a desert breeds only strict monotheists, or that all the Semitic peoples were such.  I do think, though, that the desert landscape and the harshness of desert existence breeds a different sort of psychology from the comparatively moister and more verdant terrain of Europe.  And I do believe this has something (though I wouldn't venture a percentage on it) with the emergence from an original Semitic polytheism of the singular, exclusivist, and jealous "tantrums-and-chastisements" God, as if Zeus and Ares were merged into one who would brook no second, whereas the Hellenes grew out of their polytheism into monistic, rationalist, and stoic philosophy (of which your detestation is duly noted).

Fine, though I don't agree with this naturalistic account of the origins of religions that does nto involve itself with actual encounters with spiritual beings and revelation, but in both cases I believe you're describing a small self-styled elite who had power over politics and published discourse, not the people and culture as a whole. When did the Romans for instance, as a pagan people, grow out of polytheism and into monistic, rationalist, and stoic philosophy? This never happened. And I'd also hold up Philo as a counterpoint to your distinction.

Again, your claim was that Christianity, being "Semitism", had to be tranformed because it was alien to the Western mind. But this "Semitism" was never the ubiquitous, monolithic cultural norm of the Hebrews that this statement entails, and the Empire wasn't Christianised by a book: it was Christianised by living people of whom we cannot say, for all the reasons above, that they practised and taught "Semitism".

The New Testament is a Hebraism.  How is this controversial?  Unless you are a Marcionite or Gnostic Christian, the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are the same god.  This is quite clear in the NT and all the Fathers.  It is simply a supercession.  From the synagogue to the Church.  This is Catholic teaching.

I don't see what this response has to do with my statement. The New Testament is, like the Old, what the Church teaches it is: part of a faith that worships Jesus, venerates Mary and prays to saints. From the synagogue to the Church. Yes. But once again: there was no "Hebraism" monolith in the Judea of Jesus Christ. This is a fact. There were multiple competing "Hebraisms" alongside what became "Judaism". One of these became "Christianity".

But we can't know this, because the evidence that would support your contention comes afterwards.

No, it doesn't. It's plainly there in the New Testament text. The rest follows. You're conveniently making the assertion that it's likely an interpolation to avoid what it implies. I am not the one here who is bending over backwards to not have to accept an inference.

So there is no way of knowing it's not an interpolation, which is damaging enough,

There's no reason to dismiss its authenticity in the absence of proof of your claim. The burden is not on me who takes it as it is. And the argument made for the interpolation, frankly, is no argument at all:

Mark uses "Eloi".
The Jewish bystanders in Mark 15:35 should not have mistaken "Eloi" as a cry to Elijah.
Matthew changed "Eloi" to "Eli" to reflect Psalm 22, which makes sense of Mark 15:35.
Therefore Mark 15:35 is probably an interpolation inserted after Matthew had been written.

A few things:

People frequently do things they "shouldn't".
Marks nevertheless mirrors Psalm 22 apart from "Eli", so it it is quite possible the Jews, being aware of this psalm, heard "Eli".
The conclusion doesn't follow anyway.

and anyway Elijah wasn't dead.  Calling out for a living person to come to your aid (even if the person is in occultation in the heavens) is different from the practice of praying the dead to intercede.

Again, it's a call to a saint for intercession. Bickering over the details of his vital status, when he'd supposedly been taken up to Heaven in a flaming chariot 900 years beforehand, is a bit bizarre. Nevertheless, it's academic. Ancient Hebrews were absolutely aware of such a practice as praying to the dead for intercession, just as they were aware of necromancy and idolatry, among their own people. This cannot be a point of contention.

The point of contention, in fact, is that you insist that under this "Hebraism", which original Christianity supposedly was, this practice was illicit; but the Catholic Church disagrees on your view of what original Christianity was.

[Kreuzritter]

Rabbinical Judaism is a post-Christian revision of history. They even edited the Masoretic Old Testament where it conveniently expunges, as in Psalm 110, Christian implications from the text. So, too, the Judaism of the Scribes and Pharisees had involved a revision of history and an accompanying editing of the Old Testament, as happened with Genesis 18:22 and Zechariah 2:12. It was done in the name of "correcting" the text. The temple scribes had rules on how to do this.

Have you read Enoch's Apocalypse of Weeks?

3. And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:
'I was born the seventh in the first week,
While judgement and righteousness still endured.

4. And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,
And deceit shall have sprung up;
And in it there shall be the first end.

And in it a man shall be saved (this is Noah);
And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up,
And a law shall be made for the sinners.

5. And after that in the third week at its close
A man shall be elected as the plant of righteous judgement (this is Abraham),
And his posterity shall become the plant of righteousness for evermore.

6. And after that in the fourth week, at its close,
Visions of the holy and righteous shall be seen,
And a law for all generations and an enclosure shall be made for them (this is Moses and the Ark).

7. And after that in the fifth week, at its close,
The house of glory and dominion shall be built for ever. (this is Solomon's Temple)

8. And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded,
And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom.

And in it a man shall ascend (possibly Elijah);
And at its close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire (this is the destruction of the Temple and Babylonan exile),
And the whole race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.

9. And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise,
And many shall be its deeds,
And all its deeds shall be apostate.

10. And at its close shall be elected
The elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness,
To receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation.

Note how it characterises the post-exilic Second Temple period: a generation of apostates and apostate deeds. Yet this is the "Judaism" we knwo as orthodox.

From the synagogue to the Church, Christianity is absolutely not a continuation of this "Judaism".

[Mono no aware]

Again you've just skipped over my references to the Talmud and Zohar which show that Jews acknowledge intercessory prayer as a Jewish cultural phenomenon:

Well, this is where I'm confused.  Why are you citing the Talmud and Zohar if we are trying to establish things about pre-Christian Judaism?  I wonder if we don't disagree as much as you think.  I certainly agree with you that the Judaism of Christ's day was not monolithic.  It is clear enough from the gospels that the hierarchs were from both the Sadducean and Pharisaical sects—one of which didn't even acknowledge an afterlife.  Surely they could tolerate a good deal of variance.  But the authorities have to count for something.  "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.  Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example.  For they preach but they do not practice."  Here's something you said earlier:

I am arguing that they practised it, not whether it was licit.

I guess that's fine.  But I am arguing that in such cases they were going against Hebraism—that the licitness is what matters, as something like polytheistic worship is expressly verboten according to the God of the Hebrews.  If it's not, then I don't know what.  End of conversation, I suppose.  Not to be sola scriptura or anything, but the revelation of God as contained in the Old Testament has to be at least our primary source for what constituted orthodoxy and orthopraxy for the ancient Jews, otherwise we are just arguing over a heap of indistinguishable and unimportant variances.

It seems to be the default setting of most humans to fall back on superstition, folk religion, and gooey paganisms.  After all, what have the moderns gone in for now that they've rejected God?  New Age goo-goo, angels, crystals, ersatz occultism, yoga, reiki healing, and sending their wishes out to the universe.  "I'm spiritual, but not religious."  This idiocy is as old as the ages, and doubtless it occurred among the Jews.  But the ancient Jewish authorities were apt to quash these tendencies.  Protestant authorities operated on the same level, as Protestantism is far more a Hebraism than Catholicism or Orthodoxy.  Which returns us to my point: that the Church greatly relaxed its Hebraic quotient as it evangelized the Gentiles.  (And I don't argue that there was no thing as a "Hellenized Jew."  Indeed, such a term exists because the distinctions are so important.  St. Paul himself may have been one.  If so, this was probably what made him so effective as "the apostle to the Gentiles").

When did the Romans for instance, as a pagan people, grow out of polytheism and into monistic, rationalist, and stoic philosophy? This never happened.

They didn't.  That's part of my point.  But among the educated, it took a hold and trickled down.  By the time of Christ, Stoicism was popular as a practical philosophy, and where it mentioned "the gods" or "the fates," it was casual shorthand, not doctrinal belief.  The Greek philosophers regarded the traditional local polytheisms as harmless.  The average bumpkin was not going to become a philosopher, so let him sacrifice his incense and say his prayers to his chosen gods and hope for a good spouse or a bountiful harvest.  What does it hurt him?  And this is the aspect that sums it up: there's no wrathful father-god to offend, so let it be.  This is the crux of the difference between Athens and Jerusalem here.

The New Testament is, like the Old, what the Church teaches it is: part of a faith that worships Jesus, venerates Mary and prays to saints.

If we are going by what the Church teaches, then I am handicapped too much to argue.  The Church teaches a lot things that are said to be "implicit" in the early Chuch.  But the New Testament ought to speak for itself, simply as a record.  Where is prayer to saints in the letters of St. Paul?  These are letters that even include trivial things like "do me a favor and bring back the cloak I left in Troia," as well as various salutations and closings and prayers and benedictions—wouldn't there be at least one instance where he asked the dead for their intercession?  If this was the practice at the time, why isn't it more evident?

You're conveniently making the assertion that it's likely an interpolation to avoid what it implies.

There is no way to know that it isn't an interpolation—unless there is evidence that this belief predates the gospel.  The onus is on you.  The best I can say is: "I don't know."  But I would think that if this kind of belief was as common among "the Judaism that became Christianity," there would be more evidence in the NT for it aside from a possible interpolation (since you claim I'm the one bending over backwards).

Ancient Hebrews were absolutely aware of such a practice as praying to the dead for intercession, just as they were aware of necromancy and idolatry, among their own people. This cannot be a point of contention.

Precisely.  They were aware of necromancy and idolatry among their own people: as acts of faithlessness to God.  By your logic, a person could use heresies to define Catholicism.  This is nuts.