Is premarital sex rarer among trads?

[james03]

Lying about fornication is specifically called out by our Lord as an example of grounds for annulment.  It also has some ramifications.  If it turns out that she fornicated with Bill, and she is still regularly meeting at social events with Bill, that's a problem.  If he is still on her Instabook or Facegram, that's a problem.  In fact if I were young and dating a fornicator and found out she's still in contact with her past dude, that's an instant dump, no appeal. 

[Geremia]

Girls at the TLM probably have a real sense that their virtue (or lack thereof) will affect their marriage prospects.

The Atlantic article on St. Marys, KS, "The Christian Withdrawal Experiment", seems to portray cradle-SSPX girls as sheltered who rebel:

Tiffany Joy-Egly moved from Tulsa to St. Marys with her parents and two sisters in 1979, when she was 6 years old. Tiffany grew up immersed in the SSPX world: learning about the dangers of rock music, skipping adolescent experiments with makeup, avoiding any behavior that might tempt men into sin. But Tiffany was possessed of a skeptical mind. "I would question in religion class," she told me at a Starbucks in Topeka, where she works as an emergency-room nurse and lives with her husband and two daughters. "If God gave us a brain, how come we can't use birth control? Because that makes more sense than having 12 kids that you can't afford to feed." This attitude was not welcome at the academy. "I was in detention a lot," she said.

I'm not sure how common Ms. Joy-Egly's story is, but I have noticed a certain prudishness in trad circles, where the sexes are too separated during youth, which leads to excesses when they become young adults (similar thing happens in Islam culture).
Virtue is in the mean.

[Geremia]

Lying about fornication is specifically called out by our Lord as an example of grounds for annulment.

Fornication does not invalidate marriage. Where are you getting that from? Matthew 5:32 or 19:9? Those verses actually prove that fornication doesn't invalidate marriage; "whosoever shall put away his wife (γυναίκα = woman), except it be for fornication (πορνεία, porneia = any sexual sin), ..." means: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except she really be not his wife (but his concubine), ..."

[james03]

There's two interpretations.  Yours is valid.  The other is that He is referencing the virginity test in the Old Testament.  This is based on the fact that Matthew was written for the jews, and they would be aware of the test.

I'm 50/50.  Either interpretation supports the Catholic teaching on annulment.

Either way, lying about virginity would invalidate the marriage.  It's fraud.

[Geremia]

lying about virginity would invalidate the marriage.

Marrying on the condition that the spouse is a virgin would invalidate it, as the marriage contract cannot have added conditions.

[james03]

Forget about a formal condition.  Suppose you ask her if she's a virgin, and she says yes, and you find out after the marriage she lied.

Suppose you ask her if she is infertile, and she says no, and you found out later she lied and knew she was.

I'm not a canon law expert, but it seems "fraud" is the whole point concerning annulment, along with coercion (shotgun marriage).

[Geremia]

Suppose you ask her if she's a virgin, and she says yes, and you find out after the marriage she lied.

So? Canon law doesn't require the woman to be a virgin to be able to marry.

Suppose you ask her if she is infertile, and she says no, and you found out later she lied and knew she was.

Nor does infertility invalidate a marriage.

coercion (shotgun marriage).

A kidnapping man invalidly marries the woman he kidnaps.

[Francisco Javier]

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2014/03/20/canon-law-and-marriage-fraud/

This article seemed like a good summary of when deception/fraud would invalidate a marriage.

[Geremia]

it seems "fraud" is the whole point concerning annulment

Deception doesn't invalidate a marriage. (Force, however, does.)
Ignorance of what one consents to in the marriage contract (exclusive rights to the body to the acts conducive to procreation) is presumed for those after puberty.

[Geremia]

If you suggest something towards chastity in the NO community, people act like you're a pervert for acknowledging you have a sex drive.

Or than men in general do.

[Michael Wilson]

I'm not sure how common Ms. Joy-Egly's story is, but I have noticed a certain prudishness in trad circles, where the sexes are too separated during youth, which leads to excesses when they become young adults (similar thing happens in Islam culture).
Virtue is in the mean.

This is wrong; the separation of the sexes, that is young people in the age of puberty, is a prudent thing to do; the contrary practice which is prevalent in our public school system, leads to widespread practice of mortal sins against the 6th and 9th Commandments; and adding in abortion, for all the "unwanted" pregnancies; also against the 5th.

[Geremia]

the separation of the sexes, that is young people in the age of puberty, is a prudent thing to do

But too separated can lead to excesses, too. Look at Sparta or the Druids, when husband and wives only came together once a year for procreation; that lead to homosexuality/debauchery of both sexes.

[james03]

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2014/03/20/canon-law-and-marriage-fraud/

This article seemed like a good summary of when deception/fraud would invalidate a marriage.

Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.

[Geremia]

Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.

That's an '83 Code novelty.

[OzarkCatholic]

Girls at the TLM probably have a real sense that their virtue (or lack thereof) will affect their marriage prospects.

The Atlantic article on St. Marys, KS, "The Christian Withdrawal Experiment", seems to portray cradle-SSPX girls as sheltered who rebel:

Tiffany Joy-Egly moved from Tulsa to St. Marys with her parents and two sisters in 1979, when she was 6 years old. Tiffany grew up immersed in the SSPX world: learning about the dangers of rock music, skipping adolescent experiments with makeup, avoiding any behavior that might tempt men into sin. But Tiffany was possessed of a skeptical mind. "I would question in religion class," she told me at a Starbucks in Topeka, where she works as an emergency-room nurse and lives with her husband and two daughters. "If God gave us a brain, how come we can't use birth control? Because that makes more sense than having 12 kids that you can't afford to feed." This attitude was not welcome at the academy. "I was in detention a lot," she said.

I'm not sure how common Ms. Joy-Egly's story is, but I have noticed a certain prudishness in trad circles, where the sexes are too separated during youth, which leads to excesses when they become young adults (similar thing happens in Islam culture).
Virtue is in the mean.

This is why I have avoided transplanting to such enclaves.