American SSPX Family Moves to Russia

Started by Bonaventure, June 08, 2024, 03:16:39 PM

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Michael Wilson

Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 01:01:03 PMIn Russia if you leave Catholicism, you embrace Orthodoxy which is not (really) doctrinally different.
This is utter nonsense; its incredible that trad Catholics can post such nonsense. The difference between Catholicism and non is the difference between the one true faith founded by Our Lord Himself and a man made religion.
"I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"; Orthodoxy is not "it"; its that simple.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

"Traditional Catholicism leads to Orthodoxy"; read more like: "the theology of a certain sector of Trad Cath leads to Orthodoxy, logically".
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

drummerboy

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 09, 2024, 02:27:01 PM
Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 09, 2024, 10:16:29 AM
Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMThat said, I am almost certain that if I were to move there, my children or grandchildren would intermarry with schismatics.

Nonsense. They have 6 (soon 7) kids and there's another family at our chapel with 9. All kids similar in age. Between those two families alone they could multiply like rabbits. Not to mention the other kids there, plus those who go to the monthly indult at the Cathedral, the Armenians, Byzantines, conservative NOers, etc.

On top of that, the dichotomy between Catholics and Orthodox here isn't nearly as pronounced as it is in the West.

On top of THAT, MOST Russians are non-practicing, and if they are, it's Sunday only for the attendance checkmark (similar to NOers). My wife was non-practicing and I snagged her for the good guys.

These families are holy and take their Faith seriously. They're not going to intermarry just because they're surrounded by them. No less likely than intermarrying with an Evangelical because they used to live in the Bible Belt.

Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMIf you already (practically, but not in principle) reject the pope but hold to apostolic tradition, why not just become orthodox? I don't know how you can maintain the importance without criticizing the Orthodox, and that certainly will not make you any friends in Russia.

Trads in real life don't need to be like Trads on the internet and criticizing at every moment. And the Russians aren't going to put them in the hot seat and test their Faith and if they're critical, send them to the Gulag.

As for "becoming Orthodox" I honestly don't even know what that means over here. There are some liberal (by Russian standards) priests in Moscow who engage and are friendly with us Catholics. I'm sure they would let me go to Communion and not make me swear some sort of Creed denouncing the office of the Holy Father...so what then does it mean to become Orthodox? It's a whole other thread on its own tbh.

Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMThe Russian government is not exactly friendly to non-Orthodox religious either (for good reason). They have suppressed several weirder ones, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Fatima endorsing trads don't get love for thinking Russia polluted the world with her errors.

Not true. On the contrary, I know for a fact that the Fatima apparitions are talked about in the highest levels here and are taken very seriously. I won't tell you how I know that, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMIronically with Amoris Laetitia, we are basically like the Orthodox now with allowing divorce and remarriage subject to your confessor's judgment.


I disagree only on the basis that it is infinitely easier to get an annulment in the Catholic Church than it is to get a divorce in Orthodoxy.

Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMPurgatory has toll houses. Assumption has dormition. Accepting the pope's primacy so long as it does not teach error - did that start in 1053 or in 1988?

This has been my argument for years - everyone just doubles down on their "home team's" talking points without seriously taking into account what the other is saying.


Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 12:44:04 AMThe scandal caused by the Vatican cucking to jews and fags makes it tough to hold out against Orthodox as it is when Orthodoxy is basically fringe in the western world - I don't know how you could hold out when Orthodoxy is normative

You're not wrong. The institutional Church as all but failed and it takes a very special grace to see that the gates of Hell haven't yet prevailed.

With that said, the logical hypocrisy of Trads towards the Orthodox, is blaring. Especially among Sedes when you encounter issues like the Papacy.

Quote mine @Me all you like, the position is untenable.

My only position is that it seems likely to me that your children will intermarry unless there is sufficient cause to keep them in your parallel society. In the west, I think traditionalists actually have decent rates of their kids keeping the faith. Part of it is because they have the truth, it's preached by holy priests, and their mass actually nourishes their faith. But part of what keeps people Catholic is that it is the only culture that clings to normality. If you leave the faith, the alternatives all basically accept homosexuality, self destructive contraception, abortion, widespread whoredom, deny the very concepts of honor and justice, etc. To leave the faith in the west is to embrace anarchy and anomie.

In Russia if you leave Catholicism, you embrace Orthodoxy which is not (really) doctrinally different. There's very little practical difference between being a sede or resistance or SSPX or Orthodox. If you can claim extraordinary jurisdiction based on a crisis, why can't the Orthodox? If the orthodox can offer the sacraments due to the crisis, why not just go to divine liturgy?

Being a trad is a pain. You are weird. Your views are fringe. Your religion makes great demands of you. I just don't see my (hypothetical) kids sticking with it and marrying one of the three eligible boys or girls in the only other trad family in a foreign land. I wouldn't be surprised for my son to choose a pretty Orthodox girl over a plain but virtuous SSPX girl. I wouldn't be surprised for my daughter to marry a tall Russian Orthodox doctor over a short, bald, and poor but virtuous SSPX man. Humans will have human nature despite the best of upbringings.

I'm certainly open to the idea that I will one day need to flee America and the west. I now have several friends who have been politically prosecuted and imprisoned for years. The family in the video is absolutely correct that the state now has the ability to steal your kids if some lesbian teacher reports that your son wants to self mutilate. It's untenable. Idk what the solution is now.

U taking visitors in Russia?

I guess I kind of agree about the intermarry thing in the sense that if you live in an Orthodox society, you will be required by circumstance to be more open to it. Especially give that, as you said, Orthodoxy and Trad Catholicism really aren't that far apart, it's not much of a stretch.

It's not like you're moving to China and intermarrying with Buddhists.

Other than that, I generally agree with everything else - but I do think our chapel will flourish in numbers, down the road, if we're allowed to keep our mission.

The biggest problem I see are the what-ifs. I don't like to delve into them too much because hypotheticals and Providence are not bed fellows, but, if our mission gets shut down, what then?

They used to have a weekly TLM at the Cathedral, but that's been cut to once a month (at best). And during COVID the priest had a hell of a time getting into Russia even though he's a Russian citizen. They went a few months here, at one point, without the TLM.

If you're a proper Latin with no love or desire for the East, what then are your options in that scenario? Is it worth starving yourself spiritually like that just to get away from the gays?

With that said though, as you mentioned, the West is getting pretty radical, and losing your kid(s) is a very real possibility if you don't toe the line. So in that sense, you almost have a duty to flee if you can - and God will provide for you if He's calling/wants you to move.

Personally, I could easily attend a Byzantine or Armenian Rite Liturgy (went today, it was fantasitc) and be perfectly content, but there's a lot of Trads who would be spiritually starved in a TLM-less scenario, so to speak. So they would really need to discern, imo.

Is living in a place with limited sacraments but is morally better off, better than living in a place surrounded by the sacraments, even if there are gay flags everywhere? I'm not sure. For me personally, the number 1 priority is constant access to sacraments (and churches in general). But if Trudeau is ready to take my kids, because I teach them the biological truth that a man is a man whether he's cut off Mr. Johnson or not, then I will happily flee.

And visitors are always welcome. Russians love that traditional Westerners are fleeing here.



Don't they only want immigrants with skills?
"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit.  Holy Trinity, glory to You." 
"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God; guard me under your protection."

Heinrich

I asked the father to make a video with his "North American friend." This on the latest video on train travel.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

LausTibiChriste

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

LausTibiChriste

#20
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 09, 2024, 03:49:48 PM
Quote from: Francisco Javier on June 09, 2024, 01:01:03 PMIn Russia if you leave Catholicism, you embrace Orthodoxy which is not (really) doctrinally different.
This is utter nonsense; its incredible that trad Catholics can post such nonsense. The difference between Catholicism and non is the difference between the one true faith founded by Our Lord Himself and a man made religion.
"I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"; Orthodoxy is not "it"; its that simple.

No one is saying Orthodoxy is it, by any means.

We're just saying the lines are a lot more blurry than people like yourself are led to believe.

And considering the implosion of the Latin Church in the last 60 years, compared to the relative health of the Orthodox, it's hard to imagine otherwise.

Furthermore, I think it's an insult to Our Lord, and the intelligence of many, to declare the Orthodox a "man-made religion"

I'd say it's borderline blasphemous, actually, considering they have valid sacraments.

Quote from: drummerboy on June 09, 2024, 04:23:18 PMDon't they only want immigrants with skills?

Everyone prefers immigrants with skills. So yes, if you're a country bumpkin who's only skill is downing Colt 45s until sundown, they probably won't take you. They've let in a lot of South African farmers as of late (not saying farming isn't a skill) to put it in perspective.

But they are also taking in a lot of central Asian immigrants to take the manual/shitty jobs, freeing up Russians for the "better" jobs.

As Putin said (I paraphrase), "It used to be that Russians were always worried, will I have a job? Now, the worry is, where can I find the manpower?"
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 10, 2024, 07:55:24 AMWe're just saying the lines are a lot more blurry than people like yourself are led to believe.

They're not.  Here's why:

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 10, 2024, 07:55:24 AMAnd considering the implosion of the Latin Church in the last 60 years, compared to the relative health of the Orthodox, it's hard to imagine otherwise.

Even if someone believes the Holy See to be vacant, his loyalty and submission to that See is still a non-optional part of the Christian religion.  Anything less is schism, which leads to hell.

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 10, 2024, 07:55:24 AMFurthermore, I think it's an insult to Our Lord, and the intelligence of many, to declare the Orthodox a "man-made religion"

I'd say it's borderline blasphemous, actually, considering they have valid sacraments.

Sacraments work ex opere operato.  A bishop could ordain and consecrate me this afternoon.  It wouldn't be right because I'm married, haven't done any of the requisite study, am not in the unitive stage of prayer, and don't have a vocation.  But these problems wouldn't change the fact that I'd be a bishop by dinnertime.  The validity of a stolen sacrament is not evidence that the theft was legitimate.
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Michael Wilson

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 10, 2024, 07:55:24 AMNo one is saying Orthodoxy is it, by any means.

We're just saying the lines are a lot more blurry than people like yourself are led to believe.

And considering the implosion of the Latin Church in the last 60 years, compared to the relative health of the Orthodox, it's hard to imagine otherwise.

Furthermore, I think it's an insult to Our Lord, and the intelligence of many, to declare the Orthodox a "man-made religion"

I'd say it's borderline blasphemous, actually, considering they have valid sacraments.
The Sacraments that the Orthodox possess, do not belong to them; they are as so many "stolen goods" that they took with them when they separated from the Church.
Re. "Man made religions": Q.Which Church did Our Lord found? A.The Catholic Church. Q. Then what about those other groups that claim the title of "Christian" but are not united to the Church? A. They are all man made religions.
re."Relative Health"; to what? A dead Carcass? It is a body without a soul.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Melkite

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 09, 2024, 10:16:29 AMNot true. On the contrary, I know for a fact that the Fatima apparitions are talked about in the highest levels here and are taken very seriously. I won't tell you how I know that, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

What details are you willing to share?  I'm really interested to know what Russians think of Fatima.

Melkite

Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 09, 2024, 03:49:48 PMThis is utter nonsense; its incredible that trad Catholics can post such nonsense. The difference between Catholicism and non is the difference between the one true faith founded by Our Lord Himself and a man made religion.
"I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"; Orthodoxy is not "it"; its that simple.

No, it's utter nonsense to say that Orthodoxy is a man-made religion.  Man-made schism, yes.  But the faith is fully Catholic, with the exception of a few anti-Roman accretions.  Orthodoxy is simply schismatic Catholicism.  It's legal state is no different than sedevacantists or Catholics in communion with Rome de jure, but de facto schismatic by picking and choosing which papal commands they will obey and which they won't.

LausTibiChriste

Quote from: Melkite on Today at 07:01:10 AM
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 09, 2024, 10:16:29 AMNot true. On the contrary, I know for a fact that the Fatima apparitions are talked about in the highest levels here and are taken very seriously. I won't tell you how I know that, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

What details are you willing to share?  I'm really interested to know what Russians think of Fatima.

Can't say much other than those very high up the ladder talk about it, know it and believe it
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

Melkite

#26
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on Today at 07:35:03 AMCan't say much other than those very high up the ladder talk about it, know it and believe it

Are you able to say what they think about the part where they will be converted to the Church?  As anti-Roman as many Russian Orthodox are, it's surprising to me that they would give Fatima credence with that in it, without at least being open to the possibility of entering communion with a papal supremacist Rome.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: Melkite on Today at 07:10:47 AMNo, it's utter nonsense to say that Orthodoxy is a man-made religion.  Man-made schism, yes.  But the faith is fully Catholic, with the exception of a few anti-Roman accretions.  Orthodoxy is simply schismatic Catholicism.  It's legal state is no different than sedevacantists or Catholics in communion with Rome de jure, but de facto schismatic by picking and choosing which papal commands they will obey and which they won't.

Patently untrue.

They're not just schismatics.  They're also heretics.  Like protestants but with valid sacraments (which, as we have established in this thread, do not represent evidence in favor of their status.)
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LausTibiChriste

Quote from: Melkite on Today at 07:38:41 AM
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on Today at 07:35:03 AMCan't say much other than those very high up the ladder talk about it, know it and believe it

Are you able to say what they think about the part where they will be converted to the Church?  As anti-Roman as many Russian Orthodox are, it's surprising to me that they would give Fatima credence with that in it, without at least being open to the possibility of entering communion with a papal supremacist Rome.

I wouldn't know to be honest.

Orthobros over here aren't as anti-Roman as you might be led to believe, especially towards the Trads. On top of that, I suspect most of these high ranking folks aren't hardcore, practicing Orthos to begin with.

Also, I think the emphasis is on "Russia will convert the world"

Maybe some see it as a sort of Russian version of Manifest Destiny, I don't know, I just know it's talked about a lot
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

LausTibiChriste

Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on Today at 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: Melkite on Today at 07:10:47 AMNo, it's utter nonsense to say that Orthodoxy is a man-made religion.  Man-made schism, yes.  But the faith is fully Catholic, with the exception of a few anti-Roman accretions.  Orthodoxy is simply schismatic Catholicism.  It's legal state is no different than sedevacantists or Catholics in communion with Rome de jure, but de facto schismatic by picking and choosing which papal commands they will obey and which they won't.

Patently untrue.

They're not just schismatics.  They're also heretics.  Like protestants but with valid sacraments (which, as we have established in this thread, do not represent evidence in favor of their status.)

Everyone in your institutional church are also heretics, what's your point? Like, from the top down.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie