Separate property in marriage?

[coffeeandcigarette]

I want to keep my house as a rental and in my name so that the future income and appreciation is mine. My future wife and I will buy another house together for us to live in. "Sole and separate property" is an old concept from Spain and is does not go against Catholicism, as prenuptial agreements do.

I wouldn't want you to marry my daughter.

I understand you being protective of your property/assets if you were dating secular women but really if you are looking for a trad wife then as much as she is giving herself to you and your future children you need to share yourself and your assets with her.  You should be king and she should be queen of the family castle.  Not sharing your castle with her is reducing her to a whore and a hired help who fires out your children and does the endless chores involved.  Please change your attitude, we're not all bad.

PREACH!!!

[coffeeandcigarette]

It'd be interesting to see the Catholic teachings on this.

It doesn't have to be an issue of divorce. The modern inheritance laws which are so destructive to society bring another side to the question. Many families have been destroyed because the mother interfered in rightfully distributing the property.

Community property laws also relate to inheritance. A spouse who receives an inheritance automatically holds the assets sole and separate, unless converted to community property by her own will. Again, this is Iberian legal tradition that is still used in the American Southwest. I know that doesn't relate to your specific issue of inheritance but I understand the problem. I know a man who was disinherited (along with his siblings) of millions of dollars by his stepmother. Well, actually by his father who succumbed to his second wife's ultimatum.

That is actually not true. Many times when money is left to a married person, the money is considered as having been "gained during marriage" and is therefor joint property. I have seen this firsthand many many times.

[coffeeandcigarette]

The point of marriage is to give yourself completely to your family. This includes every aspect of your life. You can't pick and choose what things to give to your family and what things to keep for yourself.

Yes and yes!

[coffeeandcigarette]

Enough cheerleading...lol.

Seriously, GoG. People have said it before but just to offer yet another support post. When a woman gets married she is completely and utterly laying herself at your feet. She gives you herself, and accepts all children that will issue from the marriage, along with health issues, stress, and the never-ending work that comes from motherhood. She gives you her whole life to do with as you see fit. We talk about leadership and submission all the time, but do you actually think about what that means day in day out for the wife? She goes where you choose to go, she lives where you choose to live, she lives in the house you ultimately decide on. She and the children must live on the income you provide. That can be a luxury or a trial, it is part of the risk she takes. She trusts you to set a good example for her sons and daughters, to help her raise them as real Catholics. Her whole life is in your hands, and she must pray that you do a good job. When the women is considering marriage, she knows she is taking risks too, but she marries someone she loves and trusts and hopes for the best. You want all this from a woman I presume, but you want to make sure she has no right to your property because you earned it before you met her? For you too keep her off the deed doesn't seem to me like a moral problem. I can tell you that it seems horribly selfish though. It makes you seem like one of those guys who want the wife to give up everything, change her whole life for you, while you float around having "your own world" that she is not welcome in. That is why there are red flags, and that is why women keep leaving you. You could be a lovely chap, but you are coming across as a mean hypocrite.

[Maximilian]

So....  morally you are duty bound to provide for your wife if you die. 

Overall I enjoyed your post, but I wonder about this one point. What do you base this statement on?

[Maximilian]

I know of no trad.women leaving their husbands.

I know of 3 just in our local SSPX chapel alone.

Ireland where you live didn't permit any divorce right up through the nineties. Other countries like the United States have a much more well-established culture of divorce, and trads are not immune to the world in which they live.

[Maximilian]

the priests were incredibly supportive of the wives.

Yes, I've seen this as well. Even trad priests are very supportive of divorce.

[christulsa]

I had a Trad buddy who is now a divorced, homeless alcoholic living somewhere on the streets on the West coast, last I heard.  He was obese, a lower income mechanic (maybe 40k/year), very average personality, but a devout traditional Catholic, kind, friendly, helpful to all.  He consistently worked, was not physically or mentally abusive (at least to any serious degree that would justify separation), but according to her main complaints when seeking a divorce he could be overly critical, controlling, and sometimes lazy.  Not good vices, but nothing worse than that.  She divorced him, got an annulment (probably based on dubious grounds like "incompatibiity"), and remarried.   He became an alcoholic, lost his job and house, and became homeless.  Both were to blame for the problems, but she had no right to leave him.  It practically destroyed the man. 

I know of a similar story, the man leaving abandoning a big trad family.  I told his wife that if I ever see him again, I plan to beat the living shit out of him and then tell him to return to his family.  There's my Irish.

Way too many of these stories in Traddom.   

[james03]

Overall I enjoyed your post, but I wonder about this one point. What do you base this statement on?

In leadership, and I have been a leader of men many times, your first duty is to your men.  If your men pick up that you consider this your duty, they will follow you to hell and back.  The converse is also true.  There is no greater sin a leader can do than to screw up, and blame it on a man under him.  The men will never forgive that.  Think about how the Lord dealt with King David when he screwed over his subordinate.

So if we are to lead our wives and family, the same rules apply.  If something happens to you, it is your duty to mitigate the consequences on your wife and family by planning ahead.  It is a reason that a man will not hesitate to die if it means his wife will live.  Women gave up an incredible gift when they chose feminism.

[coffeeandcigarette]

the priests were incredibly supportive of the wives.

Yes, I've seen this as well. Even trad priests are very supportive of divorce.

Although this has no bearing on Diaduit's personal story, I am afraid you are right. Many trad priests/conservative NO priests agree to divorce much too readily, or side with the wife, blindly assuming the man is too blame. Although that was historically the case, with the rampant feminism in our culture, it cannot be counted on. I have acquaintances/relations where the wife was crazy/lazy/totally to blame, and the priest sided with the woman. I think it just boils down to priests being men at the end of the day. They see a crying woman in their office and they see red. Their knight-in-shining-armor comes out to fight and they can't see beyond it, no matter what. It is beautiful really, chivalrous, but difficult when trying to objectively help a married couple.

[GiftOfGod]

GOG, do you pay for meals/cinema tickets, taxis when you're on a date?

No, I don't pay for women unless we're in a relationship. Why?

My view on annulment is that it should be rare, but that the pre-V2 norms do apply in more cases than we might be aware, so real cases aren't rare today. For example, if shortly after the marriage the man won't try and have sex with his wife or try and have kids, and acts distant from his wife (example an in law of mine) that may be grounds for a declaration of nullity.

And I think it's not mainly trad men ruining trad marriages, yes very possibly the majority of the time, but I can also think of examples where the wife is mostly unfaithful to her vows more than the man.

Oh come on, you know that is less than 1% of all annulments. That's the Catholic divorce equivalent of the pro-choicer slogan "rape, incest, or to protect the health of the mother" (which make up less than 3% of all abortions).

Community property laws also relate to inheritance. A spouse who receives an inheritance automatically holds the assets sole and separate, unless converted to community property by her own will.

That is actually not true. Many times when money is left to a married person, the money is considered as having been "gained during marriage" and is therefor joint property. I have seen this firsthand many many times.

You're wrong. Please familiarize yourself with the basics of community property law before you speak of it. Also, please learn how to use the quote system so you don't have to make four posts in a row.

You could be a lovely chap, but you are coming across as a mean hypocrite.

I'm not understanding how it's "mean". How is she getting hurt? What is the difference in her life or the family's life if there is no divorce? And how am I being hypocritical? I am not insisting that my future wife sign her sole and separate property to me (not that there are many young trad women with their own homes).

the priests were incredibly supportive of the wives.

Yes, I've seen this as well. Even trad priests are very supportive of divorce.

That's a bold accusation against trad priests. Care to elaborate on that?

[dymphnaw]

I have not had success in the area of courting. I believe it is due to the fact that I own a house and have a few hundred thousand in equity in it and I insist on it staying "sole and separate property" if we get married. The relationship always goes sour shortly after I tell the women my intentions regarding that.

Any advice?

Planning for the divorce before  the wedding tends to be a romance killer.

[GiftOfGod]

Planning for the divorce before  the wedding tends to be a romance killer.

It doesn't have all to do with divorce. It would allow me to sell, refinance, or buy without her permission during the marriage.

[christulsa]

Brother, people are trying to help you here, even with the sarcastic jokes.

But if you think you shouldn't have to pay for your dates dinner and movie ticket, as the man, there's not much more we can do to help you.

Buy The Book.

[GiftOfGod]

Buy The Book.

Are you compensated by this book's sales or something?