The Splinters of Trad Groups Thread

[YeOldeFustilarians]

Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.

CMRI originates with the old Catholic (one Daniel Q Brown an associate) consecrated Francis Schuckardt, and more can be discovered with a little research. I exaggerate somewhat, but Duarte-Costa orders have most of the same issues as Old Catholic orders, and they also are extensively used. The SSPV obviously originate with the SSPX, but they are not dogmatic sedevacantists. Anyhow, even if the many orders were one, sedevacantists remain extraordinarily fissile.

Returning to African sedevacantists, there's one Archbishop Michael A Kwame of Ghana.

Of course you were exaggerating, because evidently you couldn't resist another smear.

I know about Schuckhardt.  He was run out of town, and anyone who received orders from him was conditionally ordained. 

Duarte-Costa are hardly "extensively used" either, and when they are, they're viewed suspiciously by the rest of the sedevacantists.  Duarte-Costa are used by sedeplenists, too (e.g., Patrick Taylor), maybe there's a rivalry among you lot too!

Come to think of it, there are more women who've been ordained by sedeplenists than there are sedevacantists who've been ordained by Old Catholics.  Perhaps for sedeplenists, there is a rivalry over whether or not their priests should be men or women.

Nearly all 'Independent' or Old Catholic splinters who've had pretended ordinations of women use Old Catholic orders or Thuc-Palmarian (eg Bishop Cox who 'ordained' Sinead O'Connor for having paid for treatment for illnesses resulting from Cox's flamboyant lifestyle), and are not exactly 'sedeplenist.' Cox certainly isn't. Ultrecht Union-Old Catholics reject communion with the Pope, and Old Catholics are main source of orders for women 'consecrants' . Independent chapels ofttimes hold no dogmatic position, and are not strictly 'sedeplenist.' The Thuc line Bp Slupski, who witnessed Markus Ramolla's consecration by fellow Thuc Bp and consecrant, Robert Dymek, rejects the sedevacantist label, but is likely so de-facto.

So in other words you're admitting that the initial contention of Old Catholics orders "rivaling" Thuc orders among sedevacantists was so grossly without regard for even the most primitive distinctions as to be a pretty worthless statement? 

[Prayerful]

Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.

CMRI originates with the old Catholic (one Daniel Q Brown an associate) consecrated Francis Schuckardt, and more can be discovered with a little research. I exaggerate somewhat, but Duarte-Costa orders have most of the same issues as Old Catholic orders, and they also are extensively used. The SSPV obviously originate with the SSPX, but they are not dogmatic sedevacantists. Anyhow, even if the many orders were one, sedevacantists remain extraordinarily fissile.

Returning to African sedevacantists, there's one Archbishop Michael A Kwame of Ghana.

Of course you were exaggerating, because evidently you couldn't resist another smear.

I know about Schuckhardt.  He was run out of town, and anyone who received orders from him was conditionally ordained. 

Duarte-Costa are hardly "extensively used" either, and when they are, they're viewed suspiciously by the rest of the sedevacantists.  Duarte-Costa are used by sedeplenists, too (e.g., Patrick Taylor), maybe there's a rivalry among you lot too!

Come to think of it, there are more women who've been ordained by sedeplenists than there are sedevacantists who've been ordained by Old Catholics.  Perhaps for sedeplenists, there is a rivalry over whether or not their priests should be men or women.

Nearly all 'Independent' or Old Catholic splinters who've had pretended ordinations of women use Old Catholic orders or Thuc-Palmarian (eg Bishop Cox who 'ordained' Sinead O'Connor for having paid for treatment for illnesses resulting from Cox's flamboyant lifestyle), and are not exactly 'sedeplenist.' Cox certainly isn't. Ultrecht Union-Old Catholics reject communion with the Pope, and Old Catholics are main source of orders for women 'consecrants' . Independent chapels ofttimes hold no dogmatic position, and are not strictly 'sedeplenist.' The Thuc line Bp Slupski, who witnessed Markus Ramolla's consecration by fellow Thuc Bp and consecrant, Robert Dymek, rejects the sedevacantist label, but is likely so de-facto.

So in other words you're admitting that the initial contention of Old Catholics orders "rivaling" Thuc orders among sedevacantists was so grossly without regard for even the most primitive distinctions as to be a pretty worthless statement?

One of the biggest trait of a sedevacantist is rancour, and a need to feel he or she has won the argument in a way that makes the interlocutor look entirely bad. Personally, I think the point about really matters. You are assuming that I mean rivalling in the sense of equally used or approaching that. Old Catholic orders seem to appeal more to ritual minded liberal Christians, which is a constituency. Rivaling can be taken to mean another direction, an alternative which could be taken.



Perhaps I can here quote someone almost wholly negative, and at the end of her career.

'What difference does it make?'

And i would answer none.

[RedCaves]

Wow. SOO much info to take in...

Anyway, thank you for the replies. It's interesting to see that some have seen this group's website (yes, it has changed last time I saw it).

I'm surprised to see the Duarte-Costa line mentioned here. Speaking of that, here's the Society of Leo XIII:
http://splxiii-usa.vpweb.com/
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/08/17/breakaway-group-seeks-unity-with-rome/

They seem a bit schizophrenic in terms of explaining who and what they stand for...

There are other Independent groups that I've found online. I may post them on here later.

[Prayerful]

Duarte-Costa bishops will have been consecrated using a Portuguese or other translation of the Traditional Rite of Consecration, so the usual valid but illicit applies. Duarte-Costa's schismatic Church started as a leftist, socially focussed effort, but later were stalwart supporters of the Brazil's military rulers. This LXIII society seem Old Catholic/Ultrecht Union in their 'Allowing the divorced and remarried to receive Communion' along with a more Traditional Rite, basically Anglican, liberal ritualists. If they were larger, Pope Francis would cease at nothing to woo them

[Sophia3]

Are they in full communion with Rome and approved by their Bishop?

I buy my scapulars from them

Nope and nope.

Interesting, what makes you so sure of this? What have they done to not be in union with Rome?

[ÆneasQuébécois]

One of the biggest trait of a sedevacantist is rancour, and a need to feel he or she has won the argument in a way that makes the interlocutor look entirely bad.

One of the biggest traits of a sedeplenist is stereotyping, and a need to feel that he or she has categorized a group in a way which makes the interlocutor look entirely bad.  Seriously, though, just as not all sedeplentists are raving modernists like Francis, not all sedevacantists are raving lunatics. It is unfortunate that a number of bad apples have spoiled both barrels. 

[Greg]

They made a nice job of cleaning up that church.

[Sophia3]

We are not talking about the same people.

[Sophia3]

Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

They seem to be connected with Fr. Anthony Ward's group in Colorado Springs, CO. - Servants of the Holy Family.

I can't say much about that group, but I did know Fr. Ward. He studied in Econe and was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre and, replacing Fr. Bonfil in the early 1970s, Fr. Ward was the first official SSPX priest in the USA.

After only a few years, he left the SSPX (rather abruptly as I recall) and moved himself and the small group of seminarians he was training to Colorado Springs and started his own chapel, which is where they've been for the last 40 years or so.

Having lost touch with him since he left, that's about all I know about that situation, but I can say that as a young priest, he used to give some sermons that would stop you right in your tracks!

Fr. Ward still gives some really great sermons. They post some online:

[Sophia3]

From:  http://maps.thefullwiki.org/Servants_of_the_Holy_Family

"Father Anthony Ward was ordained a priest (validly but illicitly, in the view of the Catholic Church) in 1973 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the Society of Saint Pius X. The newly-minted young priest was Lefebvre's first personal representative in the United States, and also first superior of the first SSPX seminary in the United States, in Armada, Michigan. At Christmas time of 1976 Father Ward traveled to Switzerland to meet with Lefebvre, and whatever happened there was not pleasing to Ward. Returning to the US, the young priest persuaded most of "his" seminarians to follow him in early 1977 to found a religious order in Colorado Springs . . . "

For the rest of the article go to web page and very interesting data in the footnotes, one being quoted below.

". . .the motivation for Anthony Ward's trip to Switzerland Christmas 1976 may have related to Lefebvre having replaced Ward with someone else as Lefebvre's personal representative in the US. Clarence Kelly, seminary classmate of Ward's who replaced Ward as Lefebvre's US representative, would later (1983) be expelled from the SSPX by Archbishop Lefebvre together with three other priests, because they refused to celebrate the Mass according to the Missal of 1962 but insisted on an even earlier version of the Mass, apparently due to their doubts about the legitimacy of all the Popes since Pius XII (died 1958). The expelled priests founded the Society of Saint Pius V. This perhaps ties together Kellner's and Cure's speculations about why Ward left the SSPX, perhaps because he was replaced as "country leader" and the replacement was someone whose sedevacantist ideology he found intolerable."

Will leave the above quoted footnote to speak for itself regarding the replacement of Fr. Ward with Fr. Kelly.  I'm shy about poking a nest with a stick! 

He was not ordained illicitly...and there are things in the quoted article that to my knowledge are not completely true either.

[Sophia3]

From:  http://maps.thefullwiki.org/Servants_of_the_Holy_Family

Will leave the above quoted footnote to speak for itself regarding the replacement of Fr. Ward with Fr. Kelly.  I'm shy about poking a nest with a stick! 

Outside of Fr. Ward and perhaps his seminarians, I don't think anyone alive knows the real reason why he left, either way, 40 years ago Fr. Ward was awesome and if I lived near his chapel, I'd certainly go there for Mass and the sacraments.

There are people who know why he left and it was with permission that he left and for good reasons.

[St.Justin]

Fr Anthony Ward

https://www.diocs.org/portals/2/Documents/DeclarationJuly31_2013.pdf

[Heinrich]

Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

Yes. They are about three miles from my house.

[Sophia3]

St.Justin I am aware of that "document". Are you aware of many of the untrue/worthless parts of it?

[Sophia3]

Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

Yes. They are about three miles from my house.

Nice, have you visited the Sisters there?