IVF - Encouragement Needed

[Greg]

I love you Gerard.  You are a thinker.

[james03]

You were not embarrassed of Christ when called, He will not be embarrassed of you before the Father.  Good job.

[james03]

as the gift will weight over 25 kg and probably contain substances you are not allowed to take on aeroplanes.

"Little Tyke's Meth Lab",  Contains everything a little nipper needs to start cooking meth and learning to be a capitalist.

I still remember when my Dad bought me one.  Hours of fun and quite profitable. 

[Traditionallyruralmom]

This was the part that jumped out at me. 

she was open to IVF if she had to do it because she didn?t want to deprive herself of being a mom.

In full disclosure, I'm looking at this mostly from the outside.  Never been married, no kids.  But I've been a son my whole life and watched a lot of things happen around me.



I think there is a mental illness running through society about what parenting is. 

There is this strange notion that kids are an accessory or complement to YOUR life that is supposed to make it fulfilled.

I've noticed especially among the women that I dated and hung around with in my 20s or so, as they "settled down" they almost turned their kid or kids into idols. 

The kid is what "gives their lives meaning."  And I watch some of these women who used to consistently play hard to get and avoid serious, loving relationships intended on marriage with men, end up single mothers or married, but not to the guy who fathered the child.  "Dad" becomes an add on and a "husband" to help her raise her kid.  So he's only another complementary aid to the woman not "depriving" herself of this all important relationship. 

I think its unhealthy.  It has an "Everybody Loves Raymond" flavor to it but not that funny.  And consequently, the son oftentimes becomes the love of the Mother's life.  Husband?  Meh?.

Meanwhile sons grow up and want a significant relationship with a woman and the girl's complain "What am I His Mother?" because either he's been coddled by his mom all his life, or he's looking for something solid in the classic family construct with himself taking a leadership role as Husband and Father. 

And the mother and daughter in law classically resent each other, because the mother gives the son a total commitment that the wife will not. 

So, the son never gets the commitment from a wife or potential wife that he got from his mother.  So, the father transfers his idolization of his mother, not to his wife, but onto his daughter if he has one.

And the woman never commits to a man as a serious partner because she's only fulfilled by becoming a mother. 

Bishop Sheen often said, "A man marries a woman because he wants a wife.  A woman marries a man because she wants a child."  I think that model is slightly simplistic but accurate but I think it has become more of an extreme distortion over time.

I so see this in my own little corner of life.  I am on Marine MoM boards, and there is constantly "My LIFE is going to bootcamp, being deployed"  "My son wont talk to me, only talks to his GF" ectIt is sad.  They do make the one perfect child their life.  And get all depressed, cant deal with it when he decides to move on with his life.  I even heard one mom say that she would rather her son live in her basement forever than re enlist in the Mariness...it was his dad who was driving her baby to success... ....While I love my child, and would die for him, I also have a passel of other offspring,and a husband.... and can sit back and let life happen to him, because that is the way it is supposed to be

[John Lamb]

There is this strange notion that kids are an accessory or complement to YOUR life that is supposed to make it fulfilled.

I've noticed especially among the women that I dated and hung around with in my 20s or so, as they "settled down" they almost turned their kid or kids into idols. 

I think the absence of religion in people's lives has played a large role in these kinds of pathologies. Without God at the centre of your life your whole hierarchy of values is misaligned and you're going to have some "idol" to replace Him. This is especially the case in liberal society where everyone is encouraged to "be yourself" and "follow your dreams", i.e. worship your own idol. In this individualistic scheme of things motherhood does become just another means of "self-fulfilment," rather than one part of a great cosmological scheme created by God which we are subordinate to. On the one hand, it's quite touching that a woman would want to make her children her idols, rather than a career or whatever. But it is ultimately egotistical and damaging to the children themselves, as you point out. Women need to know that the children belong first and foremost to God, and not her, or at least that the man has an equal or (as I imagine Quare would say) greater claim to them than she. The collapse of religion & marriage does create narcissistic mothers, which is sad because it's the corruption of a very good & natural instinct (motherhood).

[Traditionallyruralmom]

One of the reasons my SIL gave for IVF after we talked to her (and implored her to adopt instead) was that she wanted to "experience" carrying, birthing and nursing a baby.  Ok, fine, I get that, understandable, but not at any cost!  Then at the same time she and her "partner" refused to get married because at that time sodomote "marriage" was not the law of the land and they found it unfair that their friends could not get married, so neither would they...so much going against Gods will.

My other friend is a christian, yet her hubs could apparently never love a child that was not his, so no adoption for them. Again, selfish, immature motives anyone?  Apparently she went to a "christian" IVF clinic and there were 4 children created, she has given 2 life and attempted another one, but miscarried.  Im assuming the longer those little ones sit in limbo, the harder it is to bring them back...I dont know.  At first they were going to give the "extras" to other people who could not make their own...and I was internally thinking "do you know the glut of "extra" babies produced, what makes you think YOURS will ever get life? What makes you think YOURS will not be given to some sodomite couple that cant produce their own??" She did end up changing her mind after she had her twin girls and is trying to continue to give those babies life herself.  I see in her a real "o my gosh, these are my children" thinking after seeing her twins in the flesh.  I used to sit up at night and wonder how she could have babies frozen (as I held my newest one)  and how she could live with looking at her babies that were born and not wondering if their brothers and sisters looked exactly like them.  I guess she finally figured that out, and it took having those babies to do it.  Before it was so abstract to her.  But I can guess that she is still totally pro IVF She claims it is a gift from God, and that is also what her other christian friends tell her

There is a pretty sad comment attributed to the "inventor" of IVF where he says he wanted to see who was in charge, us or God.

Also sad in these situations is that both mothers work full time and these precious children were schlepped right into day care.   

[Elizabeth]

IVF costs an arm and a leg...
Where's the quote from the IVF inventor?  Wow, I'd never heard this, but it makes sense.

[Traditionallyruralmom]

I wanted to find out exactly who was in charge, whether it was God Himself or whether it was scientists in the laboratory. It was us. Robert Edwards
Here is a fun little article..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/medicine-obituaries/9984988/Professor-Sir-Robert-Edwards.html

[John Lamb]

I watched a 2009 sci-fi film called "Moon" the other day, which I recommend.



It's about a man called Sam who is working alone on a moon-base mining for a company. It turns out that the moon-base contains countless hidden clones of himself, and the old Sam is recycled by a new one every 3 years so that the company can cut costs. I think it's a very poignant film because I believe it gives a voice to all those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses that never had a voice and were treated as subhuman. The film is all about Sam's loneliness and desire to return home to earth to meet his daughter. Just as those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses will never meet their father, so Sam will never meet his daughter. He works in a sterile, clinical environment that looks similar to a hospital, and he's looked after by an Artificial Intelligence, which I think symbolises all those nurses and doctors which have become mechanical parts of the "system", overseeing these abominable acts from a detached, non-human perspective. Fetuses and embryos never get to develop and voice their pain, so by making the main character a grown adult the film gives them a voice. I don't know if the writer behind the film was aware of these parallels when he wrote it, but I see it as a commentary on these current day moral atrocities.

[John Lamb]

Edwards never shrunk from confronting his critics. The creation of a human embryo in the laboratory, he explained later, was "about more than infertility. I wanted to find out exactly who was in charge, whether it was God Himself or whether it was scientists in the laboratory." He had no doubt about the answer: "It was us. The Pope looked totally stupid. Now there are as many Roman Catholics coming for treatment as Protestants."

It's amazing to see him outright admit that he was motivated by a deranged "God-complex" rather than so-called "humanitarian" causes. So, so sad that the Church has such little moral influence over her children that they are living no better than Protestants (the saddest thing of all is that the Bishops are practically silent about it). Gladly, God will have the last laugh, and we'll all see the fate of this demented fool who thinks he's God on judgement day.

[Gardener]

I watched a 2009 sci-fi film called "Moon" the other day, which I recommend.



It's about a man called Sam who is working alone on a moon-base mining for a company. It turns out that the moon-base contains countless hidden clones of himself, and the old Sam is recycled by a new one every 3 years so that the company can cut costs. I think it's a very poignant film because I believe it gives a voice to all those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses that never had a voice and were treated as subhuman. The film is all about Sam's loneliness and desire to return home to earth to meet his daughter. Just as those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses will never meet their father, so Sam will never meet his daughter. He works in a sterile, clinical environment that looks similar to a hospital, and he's looked after by an Artificial Intelligence, which I think symbolises all those nurses and doctors which have become mechanical parts of the "system", overseeing these abominable acts from a detached, non-human perspective. Fetuses and embryos never get to develop and voice their pain, so by making the main character a grown adult the film gives them a voice. I don't know if the writer behind the film was aware of these parallels when he wrote it, but I see it as a commentary on these current day moral atrocities.

Fascinating.

[diaduit]

I watched a 2009 sci-fi film called "Moon" the other day, which I recommend.



It's about a man called Sam who is working alone on a moon-base mining for a company. It turns out that the moon-base contains countless hidden clones of himself, and the old Sam is recycled by a new one every 3 years so that the company can cut costs. I think it's a very poignant film because I believe it gives a voice to all those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses that never had a voice and were treated as subhuman. The film is all about Sam's loneliness and desire to return home to earth to meet his daughter. Just as those frozen embryos and aborted fetuses will never meet their father, so Sam will never meet his daughter. He works in a sterile, clinical environment that looks similar to a hospital, and he's looked after by an Artificial Intelligence, which I think symbolises all those nurses and doctors which have become mechanical parts of the "system", overseeing these abominable acts from a detached, non-human perspective. Fetuses and embryos never get to develop and voice their pain, so by making the main character a grown adult the film gives them a voice. I don't know if the writer behind the film was aware of these parallels when he wrote it, but I see it as a commentary on these current day moral atrocities.

Fascinating.

I saw it and its a bit freaky to think about.  What I didn't like was that the robot saved the day due to having empathy...

[Clare]

... She claims it is a gift from God, and that is also what her other christian friends tell her
...

I always think IVF is theft, stealing from God. And worse, destroying life too.

[Christe Eleison]

You have no right to push your views but she has a right to make children like lab rats and destroy the ones she does not need?

Thanks. " Mum ".

Welcome to the wacky world of rights and wrongs.

I don't know what was in that apple, but it really did screw up people's internal moral compasses.

Move on.  Somewhere there is a woman who needs and will value a moral friend with a head on her shoulders.  You are better off without a child murderer as a "friend".

By the way, for those of you who remember my story from earlier this year.  I went to an orphanage in Kharkiv to give them a load of stuff and play nerf guns with the children and the Ukrianian woman who I went with, (she works for me) had been trying for a baby for 5 years and kept losing them.  She is now 6 months pregnant and all is going well.  I might have to drive 1600 miles to the baptism, as the gift will weight over 25 kg and probably contain substances you are not allowed to take on aeroplanes.

I really enjoyed reading about the orphanage story. Thanks.
It is great news that your friend is now 6 months pregnant. I hope everything goes well, Greg 

[Elizabeth]

I wanted to find out exactly who was in charge, whether it was God Himself or whether it was scientists in the laboratory. It was us. Robert Edwards
Here is a fun little article..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/medicine-obituaries/9984988/Professor-Sir-Robert-Edwards.html

Worse than I even imagined, the utter arrogance.