The Splinters of Trad Groups Thread

[RedCaves]

All right, so I decided to start this thread to bring attention to a topic that has always fascinated me: Every Trad Community in existence.

We all know the big ones: SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, and Independent.

That last one has its own sub-categories, for sure.

I've seen (mostly online) my fair share of organizations that claim to be Traditionalist Catholics, with varying answers to fundamental questions (Vatican II, Mass, Sacraments, Modernism, etc.)

Some make the news, others remain obscure. Perhaps for good reason.

I would like to bring attention to THIS particular group: http://www.trcatholics.org/home.html

It appears that it is some kind of Independent Trad group that is largely made up of an African-American community.

They have their own YouTube channel and do Latin Masses in small homes. https://www.youtube.com/user/tradcatholics/featured

They showed up online a few years ago but it has only been recent that I have never really bothered to ask myself just WHO THE HECK ARE THEY???

Has anyone else heard about this specific group?

[QuaeriteDominum]

They are Old Catholics.

[Sockpuppet]

Vatican I trads!

[Kaesekopf]

They are schismatics, that much is obvious.

[abc123]

They are schismatics, that much is obvious.

How is it obvious? Their website looks like it could be any other sedevacantist website. They reject Vatican II and claim not to be Old Catholics.

As Traditional Roman Catholics, we are really Roman Catholics distinguished from the Neo-Modernist  church of Rome who claims to be Catholic who claims to be Catholic. As traditional Catholics fact that we do not believe the pope is truly the pope is due to the fact that we do not accept the Second Vatican Council, a council or meeting called by the Church in 1962 which was initially meant to bring the Church up to date in order to adapt to the changing conditions of modern times. Why do we not accept Vatican II? We do not accept it, because it not only made simple administrative changes, but also proposed new teachings contrary to Christ's teachings. It is not for the sake of nostalgia, a desire for the glorious appearances of the Church, but rather for the defense of the Faith against growing heresies promulgated  by Rome today due to Vatican II.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ

The Traditional Roman Catholic Church is a body of Christians committed to the Person of Jesus Christ and His teachings. We are a historical part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

     We are a Traditional Catholic Church, defending the Sacred Traditions as passed on  by the Apostles, the Church Fathers, and the Councils, prior to Vatican II.

We believe.... the Catholic Church when it speaks on faith and morals; this includes all the teachings of the past popes, councils, encyclicals, pronouncements, decrees, etc. except those after Vatican II.

What specifically makes them schismatic?

[YeOldeFustilarians]

They are Old Catholics.

I thumbed up your post because I remember coming across this group a few years ago and arriving at a similar conclusion.  The "smoking gun" was a part of their website where it read something to the effect of "we don't judge gays".  Other than that, the site gave the impression of being for "just another trad group."  Lots of Tridentine trappings.

But this website (which is different than when I last visited it) seems to have scrubbed anything objectionable, or at least anything blatantly objectionable (the pre Pian missal is controversial but hardly heretical or schismatic).

So is there any indication from the website that they are old Catholics?  I remember the picture of their bishop from the last website, so I'm near certain it's the same group.  But the lack of a smoking gun is curious.

ETA: I don't think they're Old Catholics.  Maybe they were, or maybe there are two groups of black people in New Jersey who use the Tridentine missal, I don't know.  But no Old Catholic would include this in their profession of faith:

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

I do wonder where their orders come from.

We do not accept the teachings and beliefs of the Old Roman Catholic Church thus we are not Old Catholic, we are The Traditional Roman Catholic Church, we believe and profess what Our Lord taught and the Apostles believed, based on the three pillars of the Church. Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the  Magisterium. Unlike many Traditionalist groups we do not engaged in debates, or arguments concerning Validity of Orders. Such arguments cause further wounds to the body of Christ and are not conducive to the practice of the true religion.

[Michael Wilson]

Their statement of beliefs contains the following:

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.
This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, I do so profess and swear to maintain inviolate and with firm constancy with the help of God until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God.

By the bolded we know two things: 1. They are not "Old Catholics" 2. Max is not a member of this group (ironic).
But where do they get their bishop from?

[Michael Wilson]

Here is his biography: http://trcatholics.org/bishopmosleysbiography.html

His, Excellency was consecrated a bishop of the (Old) Roman Catholic Church of America on August 15, 2003 at St. John the Evangelist Oreatory in Racine, Wisconsin by Archbishop James Edward Bostwick with the Most Reverend bishops Gonzalo Jaromilla and Elias Millazo as co-consecrators.

He belongs to an Old Catholic group.

[YeOldeFustilarians]

Here is his biography: http://trcatholics.org/bishopmosleysbiography.html

His, Excellency was consecrated a bishop of the (Old) Roman Catholic Church of America on August 15, 2003 at St. John the Evangelist Oreatory in Racine, Wisconsin by Archbishop James Edward Bostwick with the Most Reverend bishops Gonzalo Jaromilla and Elias Millazo as co-consecrators.

He belongs to an Old Catholic group.

Evidently "belonged."  So this probably is the same group I came across before.

Many parts of their website are "under construction," but if you look hard enough you can find "hidden" pages like the one you've found there. 

It strikes me as though this group, headed by this Moisley fellow, is in a transition stage from Old Catholicism.

I'd probably stay away due to orders if nothing else.  Old Catholic orders are a messy bunch.

[Prayerful]

Here is his biography: http://trcatholics.org/bishopmosleysbiography.html

His, Excellency was consecrated a bishop of the (Old) Roman Catholic Church of America on August 15, 2003 at St. John the Evangelist Oreatory in Racine, Wisconsin by Archbishop James Edward Bostwick with the Most Reverend bishops Gonzalo Jaromilla and Elias Millazo as co-consecrators.

He belongs to an Old Catholic group.

Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists, there would have to be doubts about a transmission of apostolic succession, because since 1996 Old Catholics ordain women as priests. This means that now or later, some Old Catholic Bishops and priests have or will have orders dependent (and in fact broken) on Old Catholic women bishops. The Polish-American Old Catholics broke with the Ultrecht Old Catholics over women priests and laxness towards homosexuals. Ordaining women is one point on which Pope Francis clearly affirms Catholics teaching, noting correctly that ordaining women is impossible. Doubts cannot rightly be entertained with sacraments, least of all with the Sacrament of Orders.

[Obrien]

Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

[JubilateDeo]

All right, so I decided to start this thread to bring attention to a topic that has always fascinated me: Every Trad Community in existence.

We all know the big ones: SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, and Independent.

That last one has its own sub-categories, for sure.

I've seen (mostly online) my fair share of organizations that claim to be Traditionalist Catholics, with varying answers to fundamental questions (Vatican II, Mass, Sacraments, Modernism, etc.)

Some make the news, others remain obscure. Perhaps for good reason.

I would like to bring attention to THIS particular group: http://www.trcatholics.org/home.html

It appears that it is some kind of Independent Trad group that is largely made up of an African-American community.

They have their own YouTube channel and do Latin Masses in small homes. https://www.youtube.com/user/tradcatholics/featured

They showed up online a few years ago but it has only been recent that I have never really bothered to ask myself just WHO THE HECK ARE THEY???

Has anyone else heard about this specific group?

That group out in South Jersey is nutso.  I'd rather be a home aloner than associate with them.  I try to stay out of the 609 area code in general. 

[Obrien]

Could you elaborate on nutso?

[Kaesekopf]

They are schismatics, that much is obvious.

What specifically makes them schismatic?

They have (somehow?) established their own "episcopal see".

"Traditional Roman Catholic Church
(Latin Rite) Episcopal See"

and
"Shermanus Randallus Pius Moslei,D.D.,
Prime Bishop of the Traditional Roman Catholic Church"

None of the other traddy bishops arrogate such things to themselves, as far as I know (even if the SSPX regularly uses the trappings of jurisdiction...).

[Bonaventure]

Using a title such as "your Eminence," is pretty close to establishing a parallel church. I don't think they are formally schismatic, not yet.

I am fascinated in seeing an almost all black TLM congregation. I wish we had more of that.