I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim

Started by Kreuzritter, October 11, 2019, 06:04:05 AM

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dellery

Quote from: Kreuzritter on October 12, 2019, 07:06:57 AM
So, John, if Mary is al of these things, "vitrtually eternal" and a "quasi-incarnation", is she not a quasi-goddess worthy of quasi-worship? Perhaps the Church should let quasi-ordained women preside over her quasi-sacraments.

You're not a Catholic, this clear.
You came here as a troll, and Xavier, quite innocently triggered you so hard that you're now emotionally unable to continue your schtick.

More and more your rantings reveal the simple-minded heresies a gassed up and uncontrollable ego leads a person to.

Hatred of Mary often comes across as petty jealousy.
God has offended the envious one's supposed virtue in not selecting them to mediate His graces.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

awkwardcustomer

#76
Quote from: Kreuzritter on October 12, 2019, 05:39:02 AM
Quote from: John Lambwho even called her the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit"?

Do I need to say anything more? She's "virtually" eternal, she's the reason for creation, she's the "archetype" of creatures, she's an "infinite nothingness" in whom all of God's actions from eternity have been mirrored, and now a "quasi-incarnation" of the Holy Spirit. These terms are mostly babble, but the intention behind getting to use a word like "eternal" and "incarnation of the Holy Spirit" while dodging the accusation of heresy by changing their sense with words like "virtual" and "quasi" is clear: glorification and worship of Mary as a "virtual" and "quasi" goddess.

Exactly.  You've hit the nail right on the head.

And it's not just the terms above.  Modern Marianism as a whole does this, practically deifying Our Lady and rendering Our Lord almost subservient to her..

Isis and Horus?


Quote
Quote from: John Lamb on October 12, 2019, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: St.Justin on October 11, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
"merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins"

I know of no Catholic teaching that asserts this. Even what Michael posted doesn't say this. No wonder prots have a hard time with what Catholics believe about the Blessed Mother if they are going around making statements like this.

Catholic prophets like St. Louis de Montfort and St. John Bosco make it clear that the next age of the world will be typified by its devotion to Mary. All the Protestants and overly scrupulous Catholics are going to be put to shame in this regard. That Catholic devotion to and theological insight into Mary has increased over the centuries is by the ordinance of God and figures into His divine plan.

Looking at the course of the Roman church over the last 100 years, that so-called "Marian" devotion begins to take on and presage a familiar image.


Oh my goodness, you have just said something I've been thinking for some time but haven't had the nerve to post.  Or maybe I hinted at it.

Signs and lying wonders, eh?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

mikemac

Quote3. Why is it necessary to consecrate Russia in particular?

A: Because God wills it. As Our Lady told Sister Lucy at Fatima: "Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation ..."

And as Sister Lucy disclosed in her published memoirs and letters, Our Lord Himself confided to her that He would not convert Russia unless the consecration were done, "Because I want My whole Church to recognize that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so that it may extend its cult later on, and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred Heart." Sister Lucy has explained that because Russia is a well-defined territory, the conversion of Russia after its consecration to the Immaculate Heart would be undeniable proof that the conversion resulted from the consecration and nothing else. The establishment in the world of devotion to the Immaculate Heart would thus be confirmed by God Himself in the most dramatic manner.

Source




Images like the above were very popular among Catholics in the 1950s and early 1960s.  I remember a priest hand delivering a similar image and my parents hung it on the wall so anyone coming through the front door could see it.


Paraphrasing Saint Louis de Montfort said "the only way to the Father is through the Son and the only way to the Son is through Mary". 
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

dellery

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 12, 2019, 08:37:03 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on October 12, 2019, 05:39:02 AM
Quote from: John Lambwho even called her the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit"?

Do I need to say anything more? She's "virtually" eternal, she's the reason for creation, she's the "archetype" of creatures, she's an "infinite nothingness" in whom all of God's actions from eternity have been mirrored, and now a "quasi-incarnation" of the Holy Spirit. These terms are mostly babble, but the intention behind getting to use a word like "eternal" and "incarnation of the Holy Spirit" while dodging the accusation of heresy by changing their sense with words like "virtual" and "quasi" is clear: glorification and worship of Mary as a "virtual" and "quasi" goddess.

Exactly.  You've hit the nail right on the head.

And not just these terms but Modern Marianism as a whole does this - almost deifies Our Lady and renders Our Lord almost subservient to her..

Isis and Horus?


Quote
Quote from: John Lamb on October 12, 2019, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: St.Justin on October 11, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
"merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins"

I know of no Catholic teaching that asserts this. Even what Michael posted doesn't say this. No wonder prots have a hard time with what Catholics believe about the Blessed Mother if they are going around making statements like this.

Catholic prophets like St. Louis de Montfort and St. John Bosco make it clear that the next age of the world will be typified by its devotion to Mary. All the Protestants and overly scrupulous Catholics are going to be put to shame in this regard. That Catholic devotion to and theological insight into Mary has increased over the centuries is by the ordinance of God and figures into His divine plan.

Looking at the course of the Roman church over the last 100 years, that so-called "Marian" devotion begins to take on and presage a familiar image.


Oh my goodness, you have just said something I've been thinking for some time but haven't had the nerve to post.  Or maybe I hinted at it.

Signs and lying wonders, eh?

The fact that you find an argument comprised solely on written/visual imagery and loose correlations convincing, and then support it, could be cited as an example of this forum's irresponsibly feminist policy of allowing females to freely read and post their opinions.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: dellery on October 12, 2019, 07:48:50 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on October 12, 2019, 07:06:57 AM
So, John, if Mary is al of these things, "vitrtually eternal" and a "quasi-incarnation", is she not a quasi-goddess worthy of quasi-worship? Perhaps the Church should let quasi-ordained women preside over her quasi-sacraments.

You're not a Catholic, this clear.
You came here as a troll, and Xavier, quite innocently triggered you so hard that you're now emotionally unable to continue your schtick.

More and more your rantings reveal the simple-minded heresies a gassed up and uncontrollable ego leads a person to.

Hatred of Mary often comes across as petty jealousy.
God has offended the envious one's supposed virtue in not selecting them to mediate His graces.

If being Catholic believes that Mary directly merited our redemption by her suffering, and that someone outside of Jesus Christ could merit our redemption, then Catholicism is an obviously false religion that has nothing to do with what the Apostles taught, and we will all laugh about how Jack Chick got something right despite being a dumbass most of the time.

I know, however, that rejecting this theological opinion does not cause one to "hate Mary" or "reject Rome," (ignoring the irony of disobedience to the post-Vatican II magisterium), because Pope Benedict XVI, to whom many trads cling to as the One True Pope, explicitly rejected it himself due to the possibility that such a title implies what I've written above.

And you have to be a pretty petty individual to assume that Kreuzritter has the intent to "hate Mary" or "be envious of her," because what he said not only does not suggest that (nobody should believe that Mary is "eternal" or a "quasi-incarnation"), but even if he said something which would suggest that, you cannot read into his own mind, heart, and soul.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

#80
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on October 11, 2019, 09:11:31 PM
Either do that or abandon any pretense of Catholicism altogether.

Vetus, while I think you have a valid question as to whether Catholicism can be consistent with disobedience to the Magisterium, and the coherence of the "R&R" and "Sedevacantist" movement, the Magisterium does not extend to the actions, let alone every action, of Popes...unless such Popes are Saints and their actions are consistent with the Magisterium, and the logic of this argument is ridiculous.

Should we have a video camera on Pope Francis and be required to mimic every single action that he does because he's the infallible source of epistemological certainty on faith and morality? Should we all put on a white cassock with a white zucchetto and do our best to find a balcony to preach his message during the Angelus? If the Pope decides to have a bastard child, should we, in turn, have a bastard child?

No Catholic, even the most ultramontante types of Pius IX or Cardinal Manning (who said that turning to Tradition instead of the Pope is a treason and a heresy, because it rejects the Divine Voice of the Holy Spirit at the Church's present hour), would extend Papal infallibility that far.

If it did, the Catholic Church wouldn't have canonized St. Catherine of Sienna, who bickered with the Pope all the time.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

#81
Quote from: dellery on October 12, 2019, 08:48:02 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 12, 2019, 08:37:03 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on October 12, 2019, 05:39:02 AM
Quote from: John Lambwho even called her the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit"?

Do I need to say anything more? She's "virtually" eternal, she's the reason for creation, she's the "archetype" of creatures, she's an "infinite nothingness" in whom all of God's actions from eternity have been mirrored, and now a "quasi-incarnation" of the Holy Spirit. These terms are mostly babble, but the intention behind getting to use a word like "eternal" and "incarnation of the Holy Spirit" while dodging the accusation of heresy by changing their sense with words like "virtual" and "quasi" is clear: glorification and worship of Mary as a "virtual" and "quasi" goddess.

Exactly.  You've hit the nail right on the head.

And not just these terms but Modern Marianism as a whole does this - almost deifies Our Lady and renders Our Lord almost subservient to her..

Isis and Horus?


Quote
Quote from: John Lamb on October 12, 2019, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: St.Justin on October 11, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
"merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins"

I know of no Catholic teaching that asserts this. Even what Michael posted doesn't say this. No wonder prots have a hard time with what Catholics believe about the Blessed Mother if they are going around making statements like this.

Catholic prophets like St. Louis de Montfort and St. John Bosco make it clear that the next age of the world will be typified by its devotion to Mary. All the Protestants and overly scrupulous Catholics are going to be put to shame in this regard. That Catholic devotion to and theological insight into Mary has increased over the centuries is by the ordinance of God and figures into His divine plan.

Looking at the course of the Roman church over the last 100 years, that so-called "Marian" devotion begins to take on and presage a familiar image.


Oh my goodness, you have just said something I've been thinking for some time but haven't had the nerve to post.  Or maybe I hinted at it.

Signs and lying wonders, eh?

The fact that you find an argument comprised solely on written/visual imagery and loose correlations convincing, and then support it, could be cited as an example of this forum's irresponsibly feminist policy of allowing females to freely read and post their opinions.

Like such feminists as St. Catherine of Siena, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Therese of the Little Flower, St. Joan of Arc, etc.?

Why don't you go back into your perfect little office corner where you cry about how the world can't be as perfect as you.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

dellery

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on October 12, 2019, 09:21:03 AM

Like such feminists as St. Catherine of Siena, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Therese of the Little Flower, St. Joan of Arc, etc.?

Why don't you go back into your perfect little office corner where you cry about how the world can't be as perfect as you.

You argue like a crybaby. I was making a rhetorical point.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

TheReturnofLive

#83
Quote from: John Lamb on October 12, 2019, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: St.Justin on October 11, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
"merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins"

I know of no Catholic teaching that asserts this. Even what Michael posted doesn't say this. No wonder prots have a hard time with what Catholics believe about the Blessed Mother if they are going around making statements like this.

Personally it astounds me how Protestants and even Catholics become tense and nervous over Catholic devotion to Mary and the praise of her honours. I don't know what it is. It seems like those who think they have a solid grasp on Christian doctrine are the most likely to be repulsed by it; they tend to think of redemption solely in terms of Christ's blood and sacrifice and refuse to accept any kind of addition to or deeper clarification of the mystery. I think it takes a higher degree of theological faith and humility to accept the mysteries concerning Mary because in a sense these are the mysteries which are the most supernatural, since it's more easy to understand how God Incarnate could accomplish the redemption of mankind than to understand how a mere creature, with supernatural grace, could accomplish it as well. Why set yourself up an intellectual roadblock against the devotion of the saints like St. Alphonsus, St. Louis de Montfort, St. John Bosco, and St. Maximilian Kolbe who even called her the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit"? Why shriek about it as though you had a greater understanding of the mysteries of the Catholic faith than these saints? We shouldn't downplay Mary's glory simply to appease Protestants and scrupulous Catholics who lack understanding.

Quote
Catholic prophets like St. Louis de Montfort and St. John Bosco make it clear that the next age of the world will be typified by its devotion to Mary. All the Protestants and overly scrupulous Catholics are going to be put to shame in this regard.

Even though there's so much dang "prophecy" that hasn't happened at all according to when it should have happened, and thus probably won't happen (The spooky "Three Days of Darkness" or the "Chastisement of Fire from Heaven" from Akita or the "Destruction of Nations" in Fatima or the "Fire ball from Heaven" from Bayside), it would be cool if there was more devotion to Mary. I'm all for it.

And while I am not fond of viewing the relationship of God and the Theotokos as one where she is "holding back His Wrath barely like a thread and God just wants to wipe out most of humanity" as it is ignoring of God's Infinite Mercy, nonetheless I think that the Theotokos does intercede on our behalf for help and guidance to her Son.

Something very clear even in EOrthodoxy:

https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/theotokos-icon-of-unexpected-joy/

However, there is a very clear line that must be drawn where Mary veneration and exaltation becomes idolatry. And believing she redeemed us by her suffering is clearly way past that line.

Quote
I think it takes a higher degree of theological faith and humility to accept the mysteries concerning Mary because in a sense these are the mysteries which are the most supernatural, since it's more easy to understand how God Incarnate could accomplish the redemption of mankind than to understand how a mere creature, with supernatural grace, could accomplish it as well. Why set yourself up an intellectual roadblock against the devotion of the saints like St. Alphonsus, St. Louis de Montfort, St. John Bosco, and St. Maximilian Kolbe who even called her the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit"? Why shriek about it as though you had a greater understanding of the mysteries of the Catholic faith than these saints?

It takes naivety to accept new dogma from apparitions and writers without a second thought, not humility. Why don't you find the blue-eyed image of Medjugorje and kiss its feet? If you don't, I guess you aren't humble enough.

The faith should be vigilantly watched to prevent compromise.

Jude 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and Galatians 1:8 (Galatians 1:8 especially, noting the "Angel from Heaven" part)


Quote
We shouldn't downplay Mary's glory simply to appease Protestants and scrupulous Catholics who lack understanding.

Nor should we needlessly obfuscate theology in a world where most people don't even know Eucharistic theology, let alone the idea that the Faith is supposed to be pure and non-contradictory, by introducing some terminology that clearly implies heresy, unless someone decides to explain it in a way that goes counter to what the name implies itself. "Yeah, she's a Co-Redemptrix, but she didn't actually co-redeem us with Christ because this and this reasons."
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: dellery on October 12, 2019, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on October 12, 2019, 09:21:03 AM

Like such feminists as St. Catherine of Siena, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Therese of the Little Flower, St. Joan of Arc, etc.?

Why don't you go back into your perfect little office corner where you cry about how the world can't be as perfect as you.

You argue like a crybaby. I was making a rhetorical point.

Rhetorical points would be on-topic and persuasive. Your off-beat comment, that has nothing to do with this conversation, was neither, and was frankly disrespectful to the moderation of this site.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Heinrich

Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

lauermar

#86
@Kreuz, do not pay attention to the writings of people not vetted by the historical traditional Catholic church. All you need to know about proper Marian devotion comes from St. Louis De Montfort. Scratch out all the other crap and pay no attention to it. Don't give it another thought.

21 Things St. Louis de Montfort Said About the Rosary and Marian Devotion

Joseph Pronechen

April 28 marks the 300th anniversary of the death of St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, one of the most important promoters of Marian devotion, the Rosary, and consecration to Our Lady as a sure means of growing in grace and in love for Jesus her Son and our Lord.

It was de Montfort's method of consecration to Our Lady that St. John Paul II made and led to his motto: Totus Tuus.

In Crossing the Threshold of Hope, St. John Paul II wrote, "Thanks to St. Louis de Montfort, I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric, indeed, it is very profoundly rooted in the mystery of the Blessed Trinity, and the mysteries of the Incarnation and Redemption."

On this tercentenary of St. Louis de Montfort, his writings and teachings remain ever fresh and inspiring. Let's look at 21 of them from his works Treatise of True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, The Secret of the Rosary, and The Love of Eternal Wisdom.

(1) "It is through the most Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he will reign in the world."

(2) "Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ."

(3) "It would hardly be possible for me to put into words how much Our Lady thinks of the Holy Rosary and of how she vastly prefers it to all other devotions. Neither can I sufficiently express how highly she rewards those who work to preach the devotion, to establish it and spread it, nor on the other hand how firmly she punishes those who work against it."

(4) "If priests and religious have an obligation to meditate on the great truths of our holy religion in order to live up to their vocation worthily, the same obligation, then, is just as much incumbent upon the laity — because of the fact that every day they meet with spiritual dangers which might make them lose their souls. Therefore they should arm themselves with the frequent meditation on the life, virtues and sufferings of Our Blessed Lord — which are so beautifully contained in the 15 mysteries of the Holy Rosary."


(5) "If I were asked by someone seeking to honor our Lady, 'What does genuine devotion to her involve?' I would answer briefly that it consists in a full appreciation of the privileges and dignity of our Lady; in expressing our gratitude for her goodness to us; in zealously promoting devotion to her; in constantly appealing for her help; in being completely dependent on her; and in placing firm reliance and loving confidence in her motherly goodness."

(6) "The Rosary is the most powerful weapon to touch the Heart of Jesus, Our Redeemer, who loves His Mother."

(7) "If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory. Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and will save your soul, if — and mark well what I say — if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins."

8. "If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ."

(9) "As she was the way by which Jesus first came to us, she will again be the way by which he will come to us the second time though not in the same manner."

(10) "Since she is the sure means, the direct and immaculate way to Jesus and the perfect guide to him, it is through her that souls who are to shine forth in sanctity must find him. He who finds Mary finds life, that is, Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth and the life...Mary then must be better known than ever for the deeper understanding and the greater glory of the Blessed Trinity."

(11) "In these latter times Mary must shine forth more than ever in mercy, power and grace; in mercy, to bring back and welcome lovingly the poor sinners and wanderers who are to be converted and return to the Catholic Church; in power, to combat the enemies of God who will rise up menacingly to seduce and crush by promises and threats all those who oppose them; finally, she must shine forth in grace to inspire and support the valiant soldiers and loyal servants of Jesus Christ who are fighting for his cause."

(12) "Mary must become as terrible as an army in battle array to the devil and his followers, especially in these latter times. For Satan, knowing that he has little time—even less now than ever—to destroy souls, intensifies his efforts and his onslaughts every day. He will not hesitate to stir up savage persecutions and set treacherous snares for Mary's faithful servants and children whom he finds more difficult to overcome than others."

(13) "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic or be led astray by the devil."

(14) "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day be led astray. This is a statement that I would gladly sign with my blood."

(15) "When the Holy Rosary is said well, it gives Jesus and Mary more glory and is more meritorious than any other prayer."

(16) "[True devotion to Our Lady] is trustful, that is to say, it fills us with confidence in the Blessed Virgin, the confidence that a child has for its loving Mother. It prompts us to go to her in every need of body and soul with great simplicity, trust and affection. We implore our Mother's help always, everywhere, and for everything. We pray to her to be enlightened in our doubts, to be put back on the right path when we go astray, to be protected when we are tempted, to be strengthened when we are weakening, to be lifted up when we fall into sin, to be encouraged when we are losing heart, to be rid of our scruples, to be consoled in the trials, crosses and disappointments of life. Finally, in all our afflictions of body and soul, we naturally turn to Mary for help, with never a fear of importuning her or displeasing our Lord."

(17) "As all perfection consists in our being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus it naturally follows that the most perfect of all devotions is that which conforms, unites, and consecrates us most completely to Jesus. Now of all God's creatures Mary is the most conformed to Jesus. It therefore follows that, of all devotions, devotion to her makes for the most effective consecration and conformity to him. The more one is consecrated to Mary, the more one is consecrated to Jesus.|

(18) "That is why perfect consecration to Jesus is but a perfect and complete consecration of oneself to the Blessed Virgin, which is the devotion I teach; or in other words, it is the perfect renewal of the vows and promises of holy baptism."

(19) "By this devotion we give to Jesus all we can possibly give him, and in the most perfect manner, that is, through Mary's hands.

(20) "The Blessed Virgin, mother of gentleness and mercy, never allows herself to be surpassed in love and generosity. When she sees someone giving himself entirely to her in order to honor and serve her, and depriving himself of what he prizes most in order to adorn her, she gives herself completely in a wondrous manner to him. She engulfs him in the ocean of her graces, adorns him with her merits, supports him with her power, enlightens him with her light, and fills him with her love. She shares her virtues with him — her humility, faith, purity, etc. She makes up for his failings and becomes his representative with Jesus. Just as one who is consecrated belongs entirely to Mary, so Mary belongs entirely to him."

(21) "St. Thomas assures us that, following the order established by his divine Wisdom, God ordinarily imparts his graces to men through Mary. Therefore, if we wish to go to him, seeking union with him, we must use the same means which he used in coming down from heaven to assume our human nature and to impart his graces to us. That means was a complete dependence on Mary his Mother, which is true devotion to her."

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/on-his-300th-anniveresary-21-things-louis-de-montfort-said-about-the-r1
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on October 12, 2019, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on October 11, 2019, 09:11:31 PM
Either do that or abandon any pretense of Catholicism altogether.

Vetus, while I think you have a valid question as to whether Catholicism can be consistent with disobedience to the Magisterium (...)

You should've stopped here.

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on October 12, 2019, 09:17:58 AMShould we have a video camera on Pope Francis and be required to mimic every single action that he does because he's the infallible source of epistemological certainty on faith and morality? Should we all put on a white cassock with a white zucchetto and do our best to find a balcony to preach his message during the Angelus? If the Pope decides to have a bastard child, should we, in turn, have a bastard child?

Épouvantail.

The argument is not that one should mimic the pope in every action but that, according to the Catholic model upon which the whole edifice of faith rests, one can't ignore or reject his actual magisterium (encyclicals, allocutions, bulls, official changes to the catechism, etc.) and juridical actions.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

lauermar

#88
If a man is not Catholic, then by canon law he is not a true pope, therefore there is no actual magisterium he can write that we would be bound to obey. For example, new sins against ecology (i.e. failing to recycle as a mortal sin.)
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: lauermar on October 12, 2019, 10:08:33 AM
If a man is not Catholic, then by canon law he is not a true pope, therefore there is no actual magisterium he can write that we would be bound to obey. For example, new sins against ecology (i.e. failing to recycle as a mortal sin.)

The problem, of course, is that this line of reasoning doesn't work in the Catholic model.

The pope is not the representative of the Church. He is the representative of God. He is not judged by the Church but by God alone. Prima sedes a nemine judicatur. As the supreme lawgiver, he is also above canon law.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.