Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.

[Xavier]

Ridiculous. It's you who are being disingenuous, as you haven't even said whether you believe in Purgatory or not, let alone Indulgences.

1. Answer the question: do you believe in Purgatory? If you don't believe, how do you explain the text of Pope St. Gregory the Great?
2. Second question: If you don't believe in Indulgences, how do you explain that all Four Eastern Patriarchs once approved Indulgences? Either they all fell into heresy, or Indulgences are perfectly legitimate and necessary spiritual practices.

I understand perfectly what an Indulgence is, and what it has always been in the Church. An Indulgence is a remission of a penance, just as Absolution is a remission of eternal punishment. Both in a loose sense can be called forgiveness of sins, insofar as they remit the penalties due to sin. Now, with all that understood, do you agree with Indulgences or do you disagree with them? Again, if you would get your doctrine from such great Saints as St. Margaret Mary, St. Faustina and St. Padre Pio, this wouldn't be a problem to begin with. Indulgences are Great Mercy of God to His Church. It's because some do not believe in Purgatory, or do not take it seriously, that they do not see the value of Indulgences in assisting the poor suffering souls. A real pity.

"The common teaching of the saints and doctors is that the slightest pains endured in the terrible fire of Purgatory will be more painful than all the pains of the present life. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, "[St.] Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life (P.L., col. 397). [Pope St.] Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life 'will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,' and he adds 'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life' (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire ... and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life[.]"

St. Thomas also teaches the fire of Purgatory is one and the same as the fire of Hell, the difference being in the way the fire operates on those who die in grace with only venial sins remaining, who can still be purified, and in those who die in mortal sin and dead to grace, who are irrevocably, eternally lost: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore, "the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of Hell: and hence they are in the same place."

5 Practical Steps to Avoid or Minimize Purgatory

Granted the dogmatic truth of Purgatory, its reality, and its importance, we must all ask ourselves two questions: (1) What am I doing to ensure that I and my loved ones avoid Purgatory? (2) How can I succor the souls already there?

By the Grace of God, Holy Mother Church offers us vast and abundant treasures for both of these.

The First and Greatest Means of All: Assist at and Have Offered Many Masses for the Poor Souls

Holy Mass, especially the Tridentine Mass, is the treasure of treasures for the holy souls in Purgatory. We can never have too many holy Masses offered up for the holy souls, and we must resolve to ask our pastors, shepherds, and priests to offer many Masses for the souls in Purgatory. We must also remember to offer the sacrifice with the priest for the holy souls, especially during the Offertory.

And so, as we read in the Pietà prayer booklet, Holy Mass has these superabundant blessings:

THE VALUE OF THE MASS

At the hour of death the Holy Masses you have heard devoutly will be your greatest consolation. Every Mass will go with you to Judgment and will plead pardon for you. By every Mass you can diminish the temporal punishment due to your sins, more or less, according to your fervor. By devoutly assisting at Holy Mass you render the greatest homage possible to the Sacred Humanity of Our Lord. Through the Holy Sacrifice, Our Lord Jesus Christ supplies for many of your negligences and omissions. He forgives you all the venial sins which you are determined to avoid. He forgives you all your unknown sins which you never confessed. The Power of Satan over you is diminished. By piously hearing Holy Mass you afford the Souls in Purgatory the greatest possible relief. One Holy Mass heard during your life will be of more benefit to you than many heard for you after your death. Through the Holy Mass you are preserved from many dangers and misfortunes which would otherwise have befallen you. You shorten your Purgatory by every Mass https://onepeterfive.com/prison-purgatory-avoid/

[Xavier]

"The Second Great Means: Daily Morning, Hourly, and Perpetual Offerings of the Precious Blood

A favorite prayer of the saints are those of the form Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught to St. Gertrude the Great: "Eternal Father, I offer You the Precious Blood of Your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the holy Masses said throughout the world today [or this month], for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, sinners in the universal Church, especially those in my own home and family. Amen." The saint saw 1,000 souls go to Heaven as she prayed the prayer, and we may well hope a few souls are released from that dreadful prison even when we non-saints pray it.

The one-year and twelve-year prayers Our Lord Jesus taught to another great sponsa Christi, St. Bridget, also respectively have these express promises: "I will deliver 15 souls of his lineage from Purgatory." And "the soul who prays them will suffer no Purgatory." The prayers offer the Precious Blood of Jesus.

St. Margaret Mary, the beloved apostle of the Sacred Heart devotion, who taught us the secrets of that ever-loving, glorious, and adorable Heart, gave us the Heroic Act that will be treated in #5.

As the Precious Blood and Water that flowed from the Sacred Heart of our pierced Savior on the Cross falls on the holy souls, more and more of them will happily and speedily go to enjoy the glory of the beatific vision forever.

The Third Great Means: The Holy Rosary and the Scapular

The Holy Rosary of Our Lady and Queen is another great means, for the intercession of the Immaculate is unfailingly efficacious before the throne of God for the release of all souls. St. John Marie Vianney dares to have Our Lord say to His Mother, "If hell could repent, you would obtain its pardon." There is no repentance in Hell, but the souls in Purgatory can still happily be purified. The rosary of our Mother bears the amazing promise, "I will deliver from Purgatory those who are devoted to my rosary." The rosary also has amazing indulgences that can be applied to the holy souls. For example, every 15 decades, the complete rosary, have a plenary Indulgence. Every five decades have a plenary indulgence if recited in a church or as a family. Otherwise, it is partial.

The scapular, beside the great promise of final perseverance in grace to all who wear it devoutly and reverently, also has the Sabbatine Privilege: "As a tender mother, I will descend into Purgatory on the Saturday after their death and will deliver them and bring them to the holy mountain, into the happy sojourn of life everlasting." Even the very act of kissing the scapular brings more indulgences!

The Fourth Great Means: Indulgences, Indulgences, Indulgences!

The most direct means to aid the holy souls is to gain the abundant Indulgences Holy Church grants us precisely for those reasons. While Confession forgives the guilt of mortal sin and its everlasting pains, indulgences are instituted precisely as a merciful remission of temporal penalties. Now, those penalties must be undergone either in this life by penance or in Purgatory.

The pre–Vatican II tradition of referring indulgences in terms of days and years is more defensible because, e.g., a 300-day indulgence and a seven-year indulgence are not the same thing, although both are "partial" in so far as they are not plenary. Let the faithful be encouraged to gain thousands and thousands of years' indulgence, because we don't know the precise relation between years of Penance on Earth and years of suffering in Purgatory. It may well be that failure to perform a ten-year penance on Earth leads to a hundred-year penance in Purgatory or even more. What a tragedy! And it would be almost irreparable without the graces of indulgences.

We will mention just one of several pre–Vatican II Indulgences:

O Lord, my God, I now, at this moment, readily and willingly accept at Thy hand whatever kind of death it may please Thee to send me, with all its pains, penalties, and sorrows. (Seven years every time said. Plenary indulgence at the point of death to all those who at any time of their lives, with sincere love toward God and with the usual conditions, make this kind of act)

The Fifth Great Means: Total Consecration, Heroic Act, Life Offering

Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary as taught by St. Louis Montfort is abundantly enriched with indulgences by many popes.

In addition to this, the Holy Father [His Holiness Pope St. Pius X, consecrated slave of Jesus through Mary] granted a plenary indulgence (on 24 December 1907), under the usual conditions, to be gained on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, December 8th, and on the Feast of Saint Louis de Montfort, April 28, to those who recite the Montfort formula of consecration entitled "Consecration of Ourselves to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom, by the Hands of Mary." This plenary indulgence, which Leo XIII (also a "Slave of Mary") had granted for only seven years, was now granted "in perpetuum" — in perpetuity.

There is also the Heroic Act for the Holy Souls, which allows one to gain a plenary indulgence each time one receives Holy Communion!

O MY GOD! for Thy greater glory, and to imitate as closely as possible the generous Heart of Jesus, my Redeemer, and also to testify my devotion to the Blessed Virgin, my Mother, who is also the Mother of the Souls in Purgatory, I place in her hands all my satisfactory works, as well as the fruit of all those which may be offered for my intention after my death, that she may apply them to the Souls in Purgatory according to her wisdom and good pleasure. Amen.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states: The Heroic Act has been enriched with numerous indulgences by Benedict XIII (1728), Pius VI (1788), and Pius IX (1852). Priests who make it receive the personal privilege of gaining a plenary indulgence for a soul of their choice each time they say Mass (see PRIVILEGED ALTAR). Laymen gain a similar indulgence each time they receive Holy Communion, also each Monday they hear Mass for the departed; in both cases the usual visit to a church and prayers for the intention of the pope are required.

A recent Life Offering taught by the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary, with episcopal imprimaturs, can serve the same purpose:

My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my of my entire life for the adoration and supplication of the Holy Trinity, for unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and priests, for good priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world.  O my Jesus, please accept my life sacrifice and my offerings and give me your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death. Amen.

With ecclesiastical approbation, Our Lady has promised, "On the day they offer their lives, their loved ones suffering in Purgatory will be released." Let us not delay the offer, but do so immediately!"

[abc123]

I feel like you either don't understand the Roman Catholic doctrine of indulgences very well, or you're being intentionally disingenuous.

My money is on both. He has a long record of the latter.

[ermy_law]

My personal beliefs really have nothing to do with it.

What you are disregarding are the underlying presuppositions of the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which results in your ability to make surface-level comparisons, usually on the basis of words alone (through translations, of course) and without substance. Those comparisons you're making are disingenuous and would only convince people who either already agree with your conclusions or who are too lazy to research and think for themselves.

Here's an example of what I mean, although you use this same pattern in much of your apologetics across various topics:

The Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory requires an understanding of the merits of the saints and the superabundance of the merits of Christ.

While the Church fathers often discussed purgatorial fire, using various modes of description, that doesn't mean that they accepted what became the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

You are attempting to argue that the use of similar words throughout the centuries indicates acceptance of the doctrine. But that isn't necessarily true. You have to show that the substance of the doctrine was accepted and not just that Gregory the Great used a word similar to "purgatory" and said things about "fire."

[Xavier]

My personal beliefs really have nothing to do with it.

Well, it seems to me they have everything to do with it! Normally, a debate would proceed like this: "Here's what I believe. XYZ. Here are 2 to 3 verses from Sacred Scripture establishing my position. abc. Next, here are four or five Patristic witnesses also teaching it. 12345 etc".

If you take a look at this thread, that's how I proceeded. I showed several verses from Scripture, (1) where Our Lord speaks of the Prison in Mat 5:25-26 from which no one will get out until paying the last farthing (see also 1 Pet 3:19-20), (2) Mat 12:31-32 where Our Lord speaks of some sins being forgiven in the world to come, (3) 1 Cor 3:15, where St. Paul speaks of some souls being saved through fire, after being punished for their sins; while others receive a reward for their good works. (4) 2 Macc 12:43-46, which speaks of Sacrifices being offered for departed souls, so that they may be loosed from their sins, (5) Power of loosing sins granted to the Church.

I cited numerous Fathers (1) Tertullian (2) St. Augustine, (3) St. Cyprian. Exegeting these passages, on the prison which we will not leave till paying the last farthing; on suffering temporal punishments after death before the last Judgment. On being long purged in fire. (4) St. Isidore, (5) St. Gregory the Great, (6) St. Basil the Great (7) St. Jerome, ( St. Ambrose and others cited by St. Robert.

I also cited various Magisterial texts and Church Councils, especially for those who may be arguing from the Orthodox perspective.

What has the other side produced as proof? Absolutely nothing. No Scripture, no Patristic Evidence, no Church Council declarations. It's just an excuse to attack the Sacred Doctrine of Purgatory, doing which is very injurious to your souls. Please treat these matters seriously, friends. My heart grieves for your souls. Treat them as important and make serious efforts in striving after holiness. If you don't take Purgatory seriously, you're virtually assured of having a seriously long Purgatory - perhaps to the end of time. It's my desire that that not happen to you that makes me want to take so much effort in pouring through so many texts of the Greek and Latin Fathers and giving them easily to you to read.

State what you believe - or if you wish, the position you wish to play devil's advocate for - and then produce some positive proof for it.

[ermy_law]

Rarely does a debate start with an assertion of person belief since personal belief proves nothing.

Your premise is that the ancient church fathers accepted the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. But you haven't produced any evidence of that for the reasons I stated in my last post.

There's no need to refute what you say with evidence until you actually bring forth evidence that supports your premise. Stated in a legal way, you haven't met you initial burden of proof, so "the other side" can rest without saying anything.

[Xavier]

Take this passage of St. Cyprian: "It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord"?

Are you telling me this is not Purgatory. Recall that, while you haven't proved anything toward your case (nor even stated your case), I have proved, (1) there is a Purgatory (as you admit St. Gregory the Great taught), (2) there is a fire in Purgatory (as the same Saint did).

Now, you want me to proved additional things about (3) Treasury of Merit (which btw is not difficult to prove, but that's not the issue) and (4) Indulgences. Indulgences I have already given solid evidence of, and brief explanations because many misunderstandings persist. As when mortal sin is mercifully remitted, certain penances are given in justice, Indulgences are an act of still further mercy, such as that a remission even from temporal punishments viz. penances can be obtained by performing the Indulgenced Good Works.

I've already done 3 and 4 partially, and the general idea of the Communion of Saints and the Merits of the Saints itself shows (3). But I'm not going to (3) until you at least give me some clues about what you want to defend concerning the state of the afterlife. Do you at least admit prayers and the offering of sacrifices for the departed in the sense the Macchabees did? Do you accept that as Scripture?

[ermy_law]

You have not proven the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. You have shown that all the fathers agree there is an intermediate state after death during which souls are purged or tested. Those are not the same things.

You haven't shown any church father that accepted the Roman Catholic idea of merits, which means you haven't shown the fathers accepted the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory since the doctrine of merit is intertwined with that doctrine.

Have you read much about what the Orthodox Church teaches about the state of the soul after death? Perhaps better understanding that teaching would help you to better understand why the fathers that you're quoting don't necessarily support the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. 

[Xavier]

You have shown that all the fathers agree [1] there is an intermediate state after death [2] during which souls are purged or tested.

All right, Ermy. We'll start with this. (1) There is an intermediate state after death. (2) Souls are purged or tested during this state.

Now, I must ask you to exegete two Scripture passages for me. These Scripture passages speak of (3) prayers for the departed (4) salvation through a cleansing or purging fire.

2 Macc 12:[41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. [42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

[46] It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

[46] "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead": Here is an evident and undeniable proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom."

(1) This passage commands and commends prayers and sacrifices for the righteous dead as a holy and wholesome thought. (2) it says such sacrifices are for the purpose of loosing them from their sins. Do you admit these two things?

Next, 1 Cor 3:[13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

This passage says (1) those who, in addition to the foundation of faith in Christ (see the context), do good works merit a reward in heaven, but (2) the works of those who are wicked are shall suffer loss, they shall themselves be saved, yet only through fire.

Do you agree with this? This is the basic content of the doctrine of Purgatory in a nutshell. We will come back to merit in a moment.

Two passages from the Fathers to pay attention to: "It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" Again, (1) one receives a crown of glory as a reward for his good works; this is what is called as treasury of merit of the saints. (2) the other however is consigned to prison, and by long suffering in fire, must purge his evil works. He himself shall be saved, as both the Apostle and the Saint say, but only through this fiery prison, and perhaps only at the Last Day ("in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment", in stark contrast to the Martyr or Saint who is "at once crowned by the Lord"

Pope St. Gregory the Great cited the two Scriptural texts, Mat 12:31-32 and 1 Cor 3:13 (Tertullian had cited Mat 5:25-26; also referenced in 1 Pet 3:18-19; you have not answered these texts with other texts of your own or explained their meaning per your belief). ""we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.66 Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins ... the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume". If anyone is aware of the historical context, he knows that Pope St. Gregory the Great is taking care to avoid universalism, for from the fact that some are saved by fire, some began to claim all are saved by fire. This is why Pope St. Gregory speaks of lesser or venial sins, and says only those who died in grace with only venial sins remaining on their soul are saved through this Purgatorial Fire. The statement is clear.

Without Purgatory, there should be no prayers for the dead. Granted we pray for the departed, it follows that some are saved by fire.

[ermy_law]

Perhaps it would be easier to set out the two doctrines for comparison, and then we can assess how the statements from the fathers are viewed in the context of those doctrines?

Roman Catholic Doctrine: After death, a soul is immediately subjected to the particular judgment and assigned to either heaven or hell. A soul departing in the state of mortal sin goes to hell. A soul in the state of grace goes to heaven; however, such a soul may have to proceed through purgatory (a part of heaven) in order to purge the temporal consequences of forgiven sins. Through the merits of the saints and other prayers, the Church, through the office of the papacy, can remit the temporal punishments of those in purgatory, and this is called an indulgence.

Orthodox Doctrine: At some point after death, an individual soul encounters trials based on its sinfulness, whether such trials are literal or figurative. The soul, having passed through this sojourn from life to death is placed in an intermediate state of repose called Hades where the soul partakes to some degree of the torments associated with hell or a foretaste of the blessedness of heaven. The Church prays for the deceased with the faith that it assists the souls of the reposed in some way. Then at the Second Coming and the General Resurrection, the universal judgment will finalize all for good or bad for the individual soul.

It should be clear, then, that is incorrect to say that "without purgatory, there should be no prayers for the dead." Perhaps understanding the Orthodox conception of the afterlife will help you to understand that your methodology of approaching the Fathers with a Roman Catholic preconception leads you invariably to read into their statements the Roman Catholic doctrine; whereas, someone approaching those same statements from an Orthodox perspective reads into them the Orthodox doctrine.

And that is why proof-texting the Fathers is not a very good method for apologetics, in my opinion. Instead, you might make an attempt to understand what the people with whom you're attempting to engage actually believe.

[abc123]

Instead, you might make an attempt to understand what the people with whom you're attempting to engage actually believe.

Wisdom! Attend!

[Xavier]

The issue is that not all Orthodox believe the same things. Some believe in toll houses, while others believe in a Hades that is essentially Purgatory - a temporary fiery Prison from which souls can be released before the Day of Judgment. What is that if not Purgatory? See also that in Luk 16 Dives is already in torment, before the Day of Judgment, and Lazarus is at repose in the Bosom of Abraham. Catholic Christians believe after Christ's coming the souls of the departed enter the beatific vision, for the Lord has promised the pure of heart will see God, and St. John the Apostle also says we shall see Him as He Himself is. The same St. John the Apostle sees in Revelation the Saints made like the Angels of Heaven and singing in Paradise hymns of Glory to the Lord. They have already received the greatest inheritance of the Saints - the reward of glory that is the beatific vision - and now await only the final resurrection of the body. St. Paul also says the Saints are in light, which is the light of the beatific vision.

I already quoted Patriarch Dositheus as representative of the belief of the Greek Church - "And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."

Here is a commentary on that Council from a Protestant writer: "The souls of the departed are either at rest or in torment, [136] according to their conduct in life; but their condition will not be perfect till the resurrection of the body. The souls of those who die in a state of penitence (metanoesantes), without having brought forth fruits of repentance, or satisfactions (hikanopoiesis), depart into Hades (aperchesthai eis adou), and there they must suffer the punishment for their sins; but they may be delivered by the prayers of the priests and the alms of their kindred, especially by the unbloody sacrifice of the mass (magala dunamenes malista tes anaimaktou thusias), which individuals offer for their departed relatives, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church daily offers for all alike. The liberation from this intervening state of purification will take place before the resurrection and the general judgment, but the time is unknown.

This is essentially the Romish doctrine of purgatory, although the term is avoided, and nothing is said of material or physical torments ... In all these important points the Synod of Jerusalem again essentially agrees with the Church of Rome, and radically dissents from Protestantism. [137]" https://biblehub.com/library/various/creeds_of_christendom_with_a_history_and_critical_notes/_17_the_synod_of.htm

This writer can see it, but I think some of you don't see it. Now, if this is what you believe, then you should never have separated from the Catholic Church because of it; for schism is to cause an unnecessary division over a trifle, as St. Irenaeus says. We can admit the Latin and Greek Fathers used different modes of expression, but their doctrine is substantially one and the same. The Latin Fathers use Purgatorial fire explicitly. Hence no one with a sense of justice can reproach us for having faithfully preserved their Tradition and doing the same. The Greek Fathers do not explicitly use Purgatory, but they nevertheless speak of Hades/Hell (and everyone knows there is fire in hell; and the example of Dives in Luk 16 proves it; and btw, you said we consider Purgatory a part of Heaven, but it is actually a part of Hell, the part just above hell, the third state Tertullian speaks of as "though not in Heaven, and yet above hell") and a place in it from which souls can be delivered. We affirm, any prison from which deliverance is possible is intrinsically purgatorial. Unless you want to affirm universalism, you must affirm purgatory. For either (1) all souls can be delivered, and this is universalism, or (2) no souls can be delivered, and this is Protestantism, which rejects prayers for the departed. And we are both agreed 2 is incorrect, as Machabees proves. Or (3) only some souls can be delivered, and this is Purgatory. And therefore since (1) and (2) are not correct, (3) must be.

In Our Lord Jesus,
God Bless.

[Xavier]

1 Pet 3:[18] Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

[19] "Spirits that were in prison": See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67003.htm

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (John 5:39-47)

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"Verse 24. - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. His intense longing seems to be for companionship. "Oh for a friend," he seems to say, "who could speak to me, comfort me, give me the smallest alleviation of the pain I suffer!" What picture of a hell was ever painted by man comparable to this vision of eternal solitude, peopled alone by remorseful memories, described by Jesus? As the Divine Speaker advanced in his thrilling, melancholy description of the rich man's condition in the world to come, how vividly must the listeners have recalled the Master's earnest advice to them, in his former parable of the steward, to make to themselves while here friends who would receive them into everlasting habitations! They saw the meaning of that detail of the parable then. Were flay, in their luxurious abundance, were they making friends here who would help them there in the eternal tents? Were they not, perhaps, making the same mistake as the rich man of the story? The question might be asked - Why is Abraham, the father of the chosen race, the centre of this blessed life in Hades? In reply, firstly, it must be remembered that the whole colouring of this parable is peculiarly rabbinic, and in the schools of the rabbis the life of the blessed in Paradise is represented as a banquet, over which, until Messiah come, Abraham is represented as presiding. And, secondly, when the parable was spoken, the Saviour was actually on earth; his great redemption work had still to be accomplished. There was truth as well as error mingled in that strange rabbinical teaching. Messiah, as Messiah, when the parable was being probably acted, had not entered that realm where Abraham and many another holy and humble man of heart were in the enjoyment of exquisite bliss." https://biblehub.com/luke/16-24.htm

[ermy_law]

That you wrongly assert that Catholics believe that purgatory is part of hell further fuels my skepticism about how well you understand even the Roman Catholic doctrine.

That you can't be bothered to understand what the Orthodox teaching is on the afterlife (despite my fairly succinct summary of it for you) before deciding that the Orthodox believe in purgatory further supports my hunch that you're not approaching this discussion from a position of good faith.

So let's try this, and for purposes of this illustration, I'll make an obvious, though unproven assumption, that there are some Orthodox who believe in something called Purgatory:

Assume you call something Purgatory and define it in X way, and I call something Purgatory and define it in Y way. Is it your opinion that we believe the same doctrine because we both call it Purgatory? Or does the fact that we use the same name while defining it differently mean that we don't believe the same doctrine?

[Xavier]

Oh please, you have fallen into gross ignorance, and you compound it with malicious false accusations. It is obvious you have not read St. Thomas on the subject, yet you pretend you have understood the Catholic doctrine correctly. I wrote an Article for One Peter Five on the Subject, exhorting Catholics to the Works of Mercy, and my understanding is perfectly that of the Church - yours is not. St. Thomas: "St. Thomas also teaches the fire of Purgatory is one and the same as the fire of Hell, the difference being in the way the fire operates on those who die in grace with only venial sins remaining, who can still be purified, and in those who die in mortal sin and dead to grace, who are irrevocably, eternally lost: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore, "the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of Hell: and hence they are in the same place."[thus St. Thomas Aquinas, the Catholic Church's Common Doctor and Model Theologian]

See also, if you still don't believe me: "There is in Purgatory, as in Hell, a double pain – the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The pain of loss consists in being deprived for a time of the sight of God, who is the Supreme Good, the beatific end for which our souls are made, as our eyes are for the light. It is a moral thirst which torments the soul. The pain of sense, or sensible suffering, is the same as what we experience in our flesh. Its nature is not defined by faith, but it is the common opinion of the Doctors that it consists in fire and other species of suffering. The fire of Purgatory, say the Fathers, is that of Hell, of which the rich glutton speaks, Quia crucior in hac flamma, "I suffer," he says, "cruelly in these flames."–From Chapter IX of Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints by Rev. Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. https://onepeterfive.com/purgatory-fire-hell/

Further proofs from the Saints:

"[1] The greatest punishment of Purgatory is in the first level above the darkness. The demons can touch it there. There is heat and cold, darkness and confusion, all coming from the punishment of Hell.–Revelations to St. Bridget

[2] The lowest region is filled with a fierce fire, but which is not dark like that of Hell; it is a vast burning sea, throwing forth immense flames.–Revelations given to St. Frances of Rome

[3] "The same fire torments the damned and purifies the elect." –Pope St. Gregory the Great

[4] As to the suffering, it is equal to that of Hell. –St. Catherine of Genoa

[5] Almost all theologians teach that the damned in Hell and the souls in Purgatory, suffer the action of the same fire. –St. Robert Bellarmine

Perhaps if you knew a little better what the Catholic Church really teaches, you may not have deviated from the Faith.