My liberal church finally went over the edge.

Started by 2Towers, September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM

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MundaCorMeum

Quote from: dellery on October 06, 2019, 04:19:54 PM
At age 17 I was a single father, and never once was it difficult to keep my child from disrupting people at mass.
In fact, being so rude as to ever allow it to happen, would've been, and still is now, inconceivable. A little charitable consideration for the people next to you goes a long way.

That's not what the discussion is about, though.  It's about whether young children should be there AT ALL, even if they are quiet, and despite the fact that in today's circumstances many parents have only 2 options: bring children to Mass; or, Mom has to miss Mass every Sunday until she is done having babies - which could be for quite a long time, if one is open to life and babies come every 2 years.
Several of us have already mentioned that it's possible to keep even younger children quiet.  My husband and I manage it, and I've seen many other parents do so, as well, on a regular basis.  Several of us have also said that if a small child does start to make noise, then we step outside with the child.  I don't see the issue with that, assuming there is no option to leave the child behind. 

I even acknowledged in the original thread on this topic that it was wrong to allow my child's noise making to take precedence over everyone else's right to pray at Mass silently.  I agree that noisy children are a problem at Mass.  But, if children are quiet, I don't see why it's a problem for them to be there.

dellery

Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 06, 2019, 05:08:14 PM
Quote from: dellery on October 06, 2019, 04:19:54 PM
At age 17 I was a single father, and never once was it difficult to keep my child from disrupting people at mass.
In fact, being so rude as to ever allow it to happen, would've been, and still is now, inconceivable. A little charitable consideration for the people next to you goes a long way.

That's not what the discussion is about, though.  It's about whether young children should be there AT ALL, even if they are quiet, and despite the fact that in today's circumstances many parents have only 2 options: bring children to Mass; or, Mom has to miss Mass every Sunday until she is done having babies - which could be for quite a long time, if one is open to life and babies come every 2 years.
Several of us have already mentioned that it's possible to keep even younger children quiet.  My husband and I manage it, and I've seen many other parents do so, as well, on a regular basis.  Several of us have also said that if a small child does start to make noise, then we step outside with the child.  I don't see the issue with that, assuming there is no option to leave the child behind. 

I even acknowledged in the original thread on this topic that it was wrong to allow my child's noise making to take precedence over everyone else's right to pray at Mass silently.  I agree that noisy children are a problem at Mass.  But, if children are quiet, I don't see why it's a problem for them to be there.
You're right, I fully agree with you. When I was a young father going to mass alone wasn't an option. I wouldn't have wanted to go alone anyway.

Awkwardcustomer takes an extreme position that I dont entirely agree with, but can completely sympathize with. She wants to adore God in His house, undisturbed, in respectful silence. She wants to do what we all should already be doing. If more people had the same consideration you do she would probably feel differently.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

MundaCorMeum

#302
QuoteIdon't think bringing them along because you have no other option makes you a child-centred feminist, at all.  And neither do I believe Awkward ever presented such a case.

Actually, that is exactly what she said, word for word.  Please see post #209.  That's where I got the idea from.

QuotePerfection could never be the enemy of good.  God is perfect and he instructs us to be like him: "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".  Perfection is not an extreme to be avoided, but a goal to be attained.  A false understanding of perfection is the enemy of good.

Yes, of course, you are correct.  When I said to not let perfection be the enemy of good, I meant it in the sense that very rarely do people obtain perfection all at once, or even in this life at all.  It is some that we are constantly striving for in this life, and cannot obtain on our own.  Only God can work perfection in us, with our cooperation.  I just meant we need to be careful not to have an "all or nothing" attitude towards our spiritual life.  If we waited until we were perfect or "worthy" to attend Mass, none of us should ever attend.  St. Francis de Sales says that we must be patient with both our own imperfections and those of others.  He even says that "to attain perfection, we must be patient with our own imperfections....suffer it with patience ... humility is fortified in suffering.... God, who is infinitely good, is content with our little works, and the preparation of our heart is agreeable to Him.".  So, yes, we should absolutely strive for perfection, but not be so consumed with the idea of being perfect that we give up on the work of attaining it.  We apply this to ourselves, and to those around us.  So, while we should definitely not be neglectful of our growth in holiness, we should expect the weeds of imperfection to show up.  Sometimes, it's through our own weakness and fallen human nature; others it's just Divine Providence that the ideal cannot be met, and we have to accept that for what it is and do the most with what we have.  I simply cannot, in good conscience, allow myself to miss Mass for an indeterminate amount of time, merely because I have small children. For one, I need the graces of the sacraments to be able to fulfill my duties well.  I can't do that on my own.  For another, yes, I admit to selfishishly wanting that time in Mass to be with Our Lord in peace for an hour a week.  Our kids are quiet enough for this to happen, so I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree here.  I absolutely understand the beauty and treasure of the Mass...well, as much as my fallen nature can.  And I also understand the importance of having reverance and quiet at Mass.  Even before I read portions St. Leonard's book I understood that.  I have compassion for both sides. I think alot of people, in general, could and should work harder at increasing their reverance at Mass (myself included).  But, I also think that God is not as displeased with slight, unintentional noises from the congregation as we might think He is.  If we are intentionally lazy or negligent, of course that is different.  But, the occasional sneeze, cough, clearing of the throat, shuffling of feet, slight baby/toddler/child sounds, etc ...things that are just part and parcel of human life (like the previous quote about comparing the quiet of Mass to nature), I do not think stirs up His wrath.  If we do our best to be as quiet and still as possible, so that we can love and adore Him as much as our feeble human hearts can muster then I think He is pleased with our efforts, even if we are not as perfect as we would like to be; even if we have small children in arms; even if we have to sometimes divert our attention to said smalt child. 

In Mass today, there was far more clearing of throats and the occasional coughs than noise from small children.  I am not offended by those adults at all, and I don't think Our Lord is, either.  It didn't even really bother me or distract me from praying, even though I did notice it.  I think He is pleased with their effort to give Him due worship as best as they can.  It wasn't 100% silence and complete lack of noise, though.   I think to expect that level of silence will only set one up for disappointment. 

dellery

Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 06, 2019, 05:44:56 PM
QuoteIdon't think bringing them along because you have no other option makes you a child-centred feminist, at all.  And neither do I believe Awkward ever presented such a case.

Actually, that is exactly what she said, word for word.  Please see post #209.  That's where I got the idea from.

I'm pretty sure she was referring to the way she's being treated/argued against, by those holding a different opinion.
That's the way it appears to me at least.
Because I too have seen very uncharitable, and cringeworthy, behavior directed toward her, that definitely can be considered effeminate and catty. For example, people (not you) basically accusing her of being a crazy cat lady type of person because she doesn't want to be distracted by screaming children while she's trying to adore God. There's also some virtue signaling going on here too, by which posters tell everybody how much better they are than everybody else because screaming children dont bother them, which is also pretty effeminate. The aforementioned antics are what drew me in to replying here, because the virtue signaling and downright bullying was too much to ignore.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

awkwardcustomer

Just to clarify, background sounds like sneezing, coughing, shuffling, dropping things on the floor, don't even constitute noise as far as I'm concerned. I have no memory of even referring to this kind of human background noise on this thread.  Several posters have referred to this as if I would object to someone sneezing.  I doubt if even I could live up to the standards of St Leonard or St Ambrose, although I would love to try.

The 'beautiful silence of the Mass' which I have referred to, is more like a stillness.  There can be quite a lot of movement during the Mass, people from other parts of the Church coming to look, confessions being heard nearby, kneeling and standing, queuing for Communion, but somehow it all happens peacefully.  Sometimes that stillness is almost tangible and it seems as if everyone there is part of it.

However there are certain noises that will disturb that stillness and if those noises are prolonged, they will shatter it.  Babies and toddlers crying is one such noise, as are fire alarms, groups of tourists who suddenly appear talking at the tops of their voices, anything coming over the loudspeaker from the main body of the church.

Secondly, for the last couple of decades I have been acutely aware of the problems currently faced by Trad families.  How could I avoid hearing about them?  How could I avoid contact with them?  And I'm aware that Trad priests are ultimately responsible for the current practice because they have given up on making conversions and are relying on demographics to resolve the crisis.

Whatever the situation is now, if the priests of the various Trad groups had from the beginning given priority to preserving the stillness, reverence, silence and attention of the Mass, then things would have turned out differently and Trads would view that situation as normal as the current situation.  And so it is a choice.  The current practice exists because people accept and defend it. 

And I think it's a disgrace.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

The Curt Jester

Far too many generalizations.  Do we know for a fact that trad priests have given up on conversions?  Or is that just an opinion?

My first experience at a Tridentine Mass, I was immediately struck by how SILENT the Mass was.  For about ten years, I attended Mass at that one church and one could pretty much hear a pin drop at all times.  Funny thing is the church was also filled with young families with lots of children and quite a few of them toddlers and babies.  The biggest disturbance that ever happened in those ten years were caused by an older boy who had a mental disability.  I can't remember seeing any of the parents remove a child from church (aside from that one boy), although I am sure it happened.  It's just that the parents were certainly very discreet about it.

Another interesting point is that sheer number of people who were converts who attended at that church.  About fifty percent of the families/individuals who were attending at that time were converts (or one member was).  Maybe that particular priest wasn't personally responsible for them (who knows?), but those converts came from somewhere.  Can anyone honestly say that trad priests have given up on converts?  Really?  Playing the demographics game does not exclude converts. And, hey, why shouldn't we go for lots of children?  After all, isn't example one of the best ways to convert people? When people see large families, they see an example of a family that (wonder of wonders) doesn't practice contraception in this wacky world.

Stop with the speculation and get back to reality.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

Traditionallyruralmom

Im amazed this is still going, and its the second post on the topic to boot!!  :cheeseheadbeer:
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

Maximilian

Quote from: The Curt Jester on October 06, 2019, 08:30:18 PM
Do we know for a fact that trad priests have given up on conversions? 

Another interesting point is that sheer number of people who were converts who attended at that church.  About fifty percent of the families/individuals who were attending at that time were converts (or one member was). 

Yes, this is a good point. The 4 adults with whom I usually converse during coffee after Mass are all converts, some with really miraculous bolt-out-of-the-blue stories.

MundaCorMeum

Quote from: Traditionallyruralmom on October 06, 2019, 09:36:10 PM
Im amazed this is still going, and its the second post on the topic to boot!!  :cheeseheadbeer:

It's a good distraction when you're almost nine months pregnant.  Surely, you understand ;)

Aeternitus

#309
Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 06, 2019, 05:44:56 PM
QuoteIdon't think bringing them along because you have no other option makes you a child-centred feminist, at all.  And neither do I believe Awkward ever presented such a case.

Actually, that is exactly what she said, word for word.  Please see post #209.  That's where I got the idea from.

Awkward's post #209 was in response to the immediate earlier posts with the "suffer the little children..." quote.  A quote which had no place at all in this debate, yet it was repeated and high-fived continually.   It was a diversion, making others think that the issue was about children attending Mass, thus garnering the expected sympathy vote and with the obvious implication that Awkward had a problem with children.    And it worked, to an extent, with some.  It was clear to me that Awkward's comment was not addressed to those who had no option, as she did try to explore options, including asking someone how much a babysitter would cost, only to be told that the person who raised the babysitter option wasn't being serious, but instead, facetious.  And this facetious post did what it was bound to do and prompted further facetious replies directed at Awkward.  Domino effect...   

Awkward #95 Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions. 

Quote
Yes, of course, you are correct.  When I said to not let perfection be the enemy of good, I meant it in the sense that very rarely do people obtain perfection all at once, or even in this life at all.  It is some that we are constantly striving for in this life, and cannot obtain on our own.  Only God can work perfection in us, with our cooperation.  I just meant we need to be careful not to have an "all or nothing" attitude towards our spiritual life.  If we waited until we were perfect or "worthy" to attend Mass, none of us should ever attend.  St. Francis de Sales says that we must be patient with both our own imperfections and those of others.  He even says that "to attain perfection, we must be patient with our own imperfections....suffer it with patience ... humility is fortified in suffering.... God, who is infinitely good, is content with our little works, and the preparation of our heart is agreeable to Him.".  So, yes, we should absolutely strive for perfection, but not be so consumed with the idea of being perfect that we give up on the work of attaining it.  We apply this to ourselves, and to those around us.  So, while we should definitely not be neglectful of our growth in holiness, we should expect the weeds of imperfection to show up.  Sometimes, it's through our own weakness and fallen human nature; others it's just Divine Providence that the ideal cannot be met, and we have to accept that for what it is and do the most with what we have.  I simply cannot, in good conscience, allow myself to miss Mass for an indeterminate amount of time, merely because I have small children. For one, I need the graces of the sacraments to be able to fulfill my duties well.  I can't do that on my own.  For another, yes, I admit to selfishishly wanting that time in Mass to be with Our Lord in peace for an hour a week.  Our kids are quiet enough for this to happen, so I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree here.  I absolutely understand the beauty and treasure of the Mass...well, as much as my fallen nature can.  And I also understand the importance of having reverance and quiet at Mass.  Even before I read portions St. Leonard's book I understood that.  I have compassion for both sides. I think alot of people, in general, could and should work harder at increasing their reverance at Mass (myself included).  But, I also think that God is not as displeased with slight, unintentional noises from the congregation as we might think He is.  If we are intentionally lazy or negligent, of course that is different.  But, the occasional sneeze, cough, clearing of the throat, shuffling of feet, slight baby/toddler/child sounds, etc ...things that are just part and parcel of human life (like the previous quote about comparing the quiet of Mass to nature), I do not think stirs up His wrath.  If we do our best to be as quiet and still as possible, so that we can love and adore Him as much as our feeble human hearts can muster then I think He is pleased with our efforts, even if we are not as perfect as we would like to be; even if we have small children in arms; even if we have to sometimes divert our attention to said smalt child. 

In Mass today, there was far more clearing of throats and the occasional coughs than noise from small children.  I am not offended by those adults at all, and I don't think Our Lord is, either.  It didn't even really bother me or distract me from praying, even though I did notice it.  I think He is pleased with their effort to give Him due worship as best as they can.  It wasn't 100% silence and complete lack of noise, though.   I think to expect that level of silence will only set one up for disappointment.


Munda, I am not sure what it is we are supposed to be disagreeing on!  Except I believe, if possible, young babies and toddlers should stay at home with a reliable relative/friend (who had attended an earlier available Mass themselves) because it is the most appropriate option for the young ones and their parents.    If you don't agree, that's fine, but that would be the only thing we don't agree on! 

I certainly don't think you should not attend Mass and have never thought that.  I likened you to the example of my friends who successfully kept their own babies and toddlers quiet or immediately removed them.  They placed themselves in the best spot to do that, which sometimes meant the mother and father did not sit together.  They did this because they did have a thorough understanding of what was required and also because their priest would have taken them to task had they not!  Their children, most of whom are adults now, are exemplary, and yours sound so too.     

I read St Leonard probably 30 years ago now and it contributed to forming how I attend Mass.  I do sneeze loudly.  I make myself jump sometimes, so I am not prepared to startle the little old lady sitting next to me!  I do walk on tip-toe on the wooden floor because otherwise it does sound like the cavalry are coming.  I am aware of it and where I am, so consequently I do what I can to reduce any unnecessary noise.  I don't have a problem with noise per se, or people sneezing or having to cough when necessary or making normal movements, although I do find myself wincing when voluntary noises are made during the consecration.  Can't help it.  They clear their throat at that very precise moment and I wince.   In addressing coughs/sneezes/breathing I was simply trying to help you work through your thought processes on the topic, after you dipped into St Leonard, using the examples you provided, in a bid to differentiate between voluntary and involuntary.  In reading St Leonard again, as a result of this thread, I was shocked at how much of it I had forgotten.  Sure, muffling my sneezes and tip-toeing on the wooden floor has become a part of me and I do so unthinkingly.  I had just forgotten a lot of the reasons behind my taking those decisions so many years ago.  It was a timely reminder to myself how the most precious things can so easily be taken for granted.

Now, if you are almost 9 months pregnant, I hope you are reading and contributing to this thread with your feet up!       

awkwardcustomer

#310
This might be the time to ask - what are the requirements re the Sunday Mass obligation in an emergency situation?  Everyone agrees that we are indeed living in an unprecedented, emergency situation.  And yet they cite the Sunday Mass obligation as if the times were entirely normal.

Are Catholics in an emergency situation required to attend Mass every Sunday NO MATTER WHAT.  If the typical Trad parent spends half their time at Mass placating babies and toddlers, they can tick a box saying they were there, and yet they were only half there.  If Trad parents took it in turns to stay at home with babies and toddlers while the other spouse attended Mass with the older children, they wouldn't be able to tick the weekly box. But they could be fully present at Mass every fortnight.

So half present at Mass every Sunday or fully present at Mass every fortnight?  Which would be most beneficial to those parents, not to mention everyone else?   And how would the liturgy benefit from all the stillness, attention and reverence that would result?

My suggestion of allocating earlier Low Masses to Catholics wishing to adore God in peace, in parishes that could support more than one Sunday TLM, was shouted down on the other thread.  A Mass which restricted attendance to Catholics who had reached the age of reason - termed a 'grump' Mass by one poster - would be 'divisive' it was claimed.  No, people like me who want to adore God without a toddler screaming in their ear are 'divisive grumps' and should learn to put up and shut up, or wear ear plugs.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

diaduit

Quote from: dellery on October 06, 2019, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 06, 2019, 05:08:14 PM
Quote from: dellery on October 06, 2019, 04:19:54 PM
At age 17 I was a single father, and never once was it difficult to keep my child from disrupting people at mass.
In fact, being so rude as to ever allow it to happen, would've been, and still is now, inconceivable. A little charitable consideration for the people next to you goes a long way.

That's not what the discussion is about, though.  It's about whether young children should be there AT ALL, even if they are quiet, and despite the fact that in today's circumstances many parents have only 2 options: bring children to Mass; or, Mom has to miss Mass every Sunday until she is done having babies - which could be for quite a long time, if one is open to life and babies come every 2 years.
Several of us have already mentioned that it's possible to keep even younger children quiet.  My husband and I manage it, and I've seen many other parents do so, as well, on a regular basis.  Several of us have also said that if a small child does start to make noise, then we step outside with the child.  I don't see the issue with that, assuming there is no option to leave the child behind. 

I even acknowledged in the original thread on this topic that it was wrong to allow my child's noise making to take precedence over everyone else's right to pray at Mass silently.  I agree that noisy children are a problem at Mass.  But, if children are quiet, I don't see why it's a problem for them to be there.
You're right, I fully agree with you. When I was a young father going to mass alone wasn't an option. I wouldn't have wanted to go alone anyway.

Awkwardcustomer takes an extreme position that I dont entirely agree with, but can completely sympathize with. She wants to adore God in His house, undisturbed, in respectful silence. She wants to do what we all should already be doing. If more people had the same consideration you do she would probably feel differently.

Everyone who has posted on this thread DOES the same as munda, we take our children outside if they are making noise.  I have repeated here and previous thread about standing in a freezing damp vestibule time and again (weather here is awful in winter) and nursed a 15lb baby in my arms while standing to avoid causing a disturbance to others. 
Why are you selective about who is doing their best?

Why are you selective about who is dishing out the cattiness, its on both sides?



I have empathised with Awkward and still do about noise sensitivity and in previous thread as I have it too, there is no empathy coming back, its stay at home with your babies and toddlers or leave them at home with someone, why can she not accept the best and only option for those who cannot leave kids at home, which is what we are doing now---- removing a fussy baby during mass so as not to disturb the peace (this gets sidelined during the thread all the time), its a WORKABLE solution in the current situation.  Can she not accept that as an option?  It works fine in our church and again yesterday, the peace was surreal even with lots of little children.


awkwardcustomer

#312
Quote from: diaduit on October 07, 2019, 03:57:00 AM
Everyone who has posted on this thread DOES the same as munda, we take our children outside if they are making noise.  I have repeated here and previous thread about standing in a freezing damp vestibule time and again (weather here is awful in winter) and nursed a 15lb baby in my arms while standing to avoid causing a disturbance to others. 

Think about what you're saying here.  Ask yourself how present at Mass you really are if you have to keep taking your babies and toddlers (not children) outside.

Why are you arguing for the right to do this, to attend Mass with your babies and toddlers and yet only be partly present at that Mass because of the babies and toddlers you bring?

Quote
I have empathised with Awkward and still do about noise sensitivity and in previous thread as I have it too, there is no empathy coming back, its stay at home with your babies and toddlers or leave them at home with someone, why can she not accept the best and only option for those who cannot leave kids at home, which is what we are doing now---- removing a fussy baby during mass so as not to disturb the peace (this gets sidelined during the thread all the time), its a WORKABLE solution in the current situation.  Can she not accept that as an option?  It works fine in our church and again yesterday, the peace was surreal even with lots of little children.

This has little to do with the noise sensitivity you claim I have and that you share.  This is about the reverence and attention owed to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. 

You advocate as a workable solution the coming and going of parents as they step outside whenever their babies and toddlers cause a disturbance.  But matter how diligent and considerate you are as a parent - and I'm sure you are - the coming and going you are advocating is still a disturbance.  How long does it take you to decide whether or not to make the decision to step outside?  How long does the crying go on before you decide whether your baby or toddler will settle down or not?  5 minutes, 10 minutes?  And when you do eventually step outside, how many other parents are in the process of making the same decision, waiting to see if the crying will settle down or not?

And what's it all for - so you can fulfil your Sunday Mass obligation, even if it means being only half present at that Mass?  I've actually sat behind the parents and grandparents of a toddler as they barely glanced at the altar during the entire Mass, so engrossed were they in attending to a single two year old who, I swear, loved the undivided attention he was getting and had little or no incentive to stop his antics.

Why wouldn't you prefer to attend Mass every other Sunday, with your older children, so that you could at least be fully present at the Masses you attend?  Why would it be such a hardship for you and your husband to take it in turns to attend Sunday Mass, leaving babies and toddlers at home with the remaining spouse?  And if you tell me that a baby cannot endure being left with his father for a couple of hours once a fortnight until he is at least two years old, I simply won't believe you.

I think the Sunday Mass obligation is being misapplied in this emergency situation we all agree we're in, with the result that it is now deemed more important to be at half at Mass, if that,  once a week, than fully at Mass once a fortnight. And that despite the noise and disturbance that babies and toddlers inevitably cause no matter how diligent their parents are, their presence is considered more important than preserving the reverence, attention, silence and stillness of the TLM

It's madness.

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 06, 2019, 03:27:20 PM
I'm afraid with this all-too-honest revelation of your feelings, who have lost any chance to pretend that you understand what parents are facing period. You may not be an old curmudgeon, but you are certainly ignorant of this entire situation; and have enjoyed your single life with all it's freedoms, silent moments, and intact china cats too long to turn a kind eye on parents or children. Sad...     Reality check in isle five...reality check in isle five please.

"intact china cats" - ah, yes, my single life is full of those. You know nothing about my life, nothing.

And you want a reality check!  Come here, and I'll show you reality as I know it.  You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Now let me guess, you live in a nice suburban/rural house and have two cars, like most Trads. But where are the Trads from the Projects?  Nowhere to be found, I bet.  So enough of your hardships as if only yours matter.

I've had 20 years of hearing about the problems faced by Trad families and about how we must all cater to you.  Enough already, especially when I've had to endure one vicious insult after another when daring to raise the subject of the appalling loss of reverence, attention silence and stillness at Mass that we all have to endure. 

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 05:35:00 AM
Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 06, 2019, 03:27:20 PM
I'm afraid with this all-too-honest revelation of your feelings, who have lost any chance to pretend that you understand what parents are facing period. You may not be an old curmudgeon, but you are certainly ignorant of this entire situation; and have enjoyed your single life with all it's freedoms, silent moments, and intact china cats too long to turn a kind eye on parents or children. Sad...     Reality check in isle five...reality check in isle five please.

"intact china cats" - ah, yes, my single life is full of those. You know nothing about my life, nothing.

And you want a reality check!  Come here, and I'll show you reality as I know it.  You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Now let me guess, you live in a nice suburban/rural house and have two cars, like most Trads. But where are the Trads from the Projects?  Nowhere to be found, I bet.  So enough of your hardships as if only yours matter.

I've had 20 years of hearing about the problems faced by Trad families and about how we must all cater to you.  Enough already, especially when I've had to endure one vicious insult after another when daring to raise the subject of the appalling loss of reverence, attention silence and stillness at Mass that we all have to endure.

One car...and trust me, I could take it just fine.