My liberal church finally went over the edge.

[orate]

Aeternitus  Although I still disagree with your conclusion about infants and toddlers at Mass, especially when parents try to keep the sound level down and attend to their wee ones well,  I very much appreciate the reasonableness of your posts.  Your charity toward ALL, no matter  what side of the fence they sit, is admirable.

[Aeternitus]

Aeternitus  Although I still disagree with your conclusion about infants and toddlers at Mass, especially when parents try to keep the sound level down and attend to their wee ones well,  I very much appreciate the reasonableness of your posts.  Your charity toward ALL, no matter  what side of the fence they sit, is admirable.

What a lovely comment. Thank you. 

[diaduit]

Here is evidence that babies and toddlers weren't taken to Mass - from 1896, published not in some corner of France as in the testimony of St Therese of Lisieux, but in the USA with an Imprimateur from the Archbishop of New York.

Aeternitus kindly posted it above, and I'm reposting it here for emphasis, from 'Cochem's Explanation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with an Appendix, Containing Devotions for Mass, for Confession, and for Communion', by Camillus P. Maes

Mothers ought to leave very young children at home, as they disturb not only those who bring them to church, but other people, and sometimes even the priest himself.  But bigger children who are old enough to be still, may be brought to Mass. (p 351 Cochem's Explanation of the Holy Mass)

http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20Martin%20Cochem%20-%20Explanation%20of%20the%20Holy%20Sacrifice%20of%20the%20Mass.pdf

That was thoughtful of you to re-quote that passage. Let me ask you this. If "mothers" should leave babies at home, exactly who should they leave them with. What if you live (like MANY trads) almost an hour, or more than an hour from mass. What if you have no family. What if it costs so much in fuel to get to mass that you could never afford to drive to mass, come home, and send your spouse right back again. What if you only have one mass on Sunday? If every mass centre had two masses per Sunday and feastday, and you lived close to mass, some of these suggestions of Aeternitus would work....mostly they don't.

You are right.  The situation now, due to the crisis in the Church, is very different from what it was even in the 50s and 60s.  Parents of families have a very difficult task without the support of family or reliable Catholic friends.  What one can do about it is subject to the individual family circumstance/options and after discussion with one's priest.  But the default position from the most vocal posters here, seems to be outrage that parents of young children should be expected to do anything, because the church doesn't have a law forbidding babies and toddlers (NOT children) at Mass attendance, opposed to the duty of fulfilling one's Sunday obligation.  Well, if one lives too far from church that obligation doesn't apply and it then becomes a choice.  How far is too far is a discussion one has with one's priest, so that the particular circumstances of the family can be taken into consideration also.
 
Right from the beginning, when I joined the discussion on this thread, I could see both sides.  I have now read both threads on this topic and a significant amount of other material in trying to come to a conclusion.
   
From the evidence provided, the traditional position seems to be not to take babies and young children to church.  Yes, infants could receive communion in the early church, but that is not evidence in itself that they received and were at church every Sunday, or even that they were present at the Mass. They could have been brought in from an outer room. 
 
St Theresa was kept at home because she was considered too young to attend Mass.  The recent quotes I provided, indicated the same applied to others in the US.  St Ambrose insisted on complete quiet in his Mass, no coughing or moving at all, to the point of instilling holy fear into his parishioners; St Leonard of Port Maurice highlights the necessity of complete quiet and compares it to the Old Law when the sacrificing of animals was done in such total silence that one would think the church was empty.  Cochem makes clear the accepted practice of not bringing babies and children to Mass until they could sit still. Munda explained, in the first thread, that she read in an old mother's manual that babies and toddlers were left at home. The evidence is significant.  On the contrary, the only evidence provided for babies and toddlers attending church is current practice and practical need.
 
Given the above, my conclusion is that the crisis in the church is responsible for babies and toddlers attending Mass, thereby potentially compromising the silence, reverence and devout attention it deserves. 

How does one deal with it? Well, it is a tough one and requires the exercise of charity from both sides.  As I said in an earlier post, I have friends who have reared excellent children during this crisis, all of whom have attended Mass since just after birth.  They too didn't have family help and lived about a 30 minute drive from Church.  In thinking further of their example, I can see now that they employed a number of means to achieve this.  They tag-teamed on occasion, they utilised the assistance of Catholic friends when necessary, they were outside with the children in turns and they disciplined accordingly. They were extremely vigilant, which was prompted by their combined horror at the thought of the Mass being disrupted in any way, which they considered as offensive to God, the priest and their neighbour.  Afterwards they would head off for some coffee and cigarettes, which they also found helped  while the kids ran wild on the beach or in the park to burn off some of that restrained energy.  They were and still are the happiest family I have ever had the good fortune to meet.
 
I don't know what you can do in your situation, Coffee & Cigs.  I am saddened to hear you have no assistance at all and hope that vigilance with your young ones/children, reverence for the sanctity of the Mass and charity towards your neighbour brings you the same rewards it has brought my home-schooling friends.

It was the bolded/underlined that gave the impression that we trad parents were just feckless in our responsibility to keep our children quiet, it didn't say that our default position was we couldn't leave them at home , it said our default position was outrage at being expected to do ANYTHING.

If I took it up wrong then apologies.

[Traditionallyruralmom]

well, I am once again faced with reality and am on my way to Mass with the brood of children.  Husband is out of town, so I must go it alone.  Even if he was not out of town, we would be going to 1 Mass, as a family, as that is what circumstances dictate.   I am willing to take anyone up on an offer to babysit, or you can send me $ though pay pal if you want to help me hire a babysitter for the littles...though it will most likely have to be Amish, since all my neighbors are Amish.....they dont charge as much though, so that is a good thing......PM me if interested 

[Maximilian]

Where on this or other thread did trad parents say it was okay to remain inside the church with a noisy baby.
Unanimously we all agreed and have abided by the unwritten rule, baby makes noise mama or Papa steps outside.

I think that the posters who are objecting to noisy babies at Mass are reacting to real-life rather than to posters on this thread. To the extent that they disagree with some posters on this thread, it is probably because they see those posters as supporting the real-life people at their chapel who stay in church with noisy babies.

This morning, for example, I went to the chapel which has many noisy babies and many parents who don't believe in taking them out. The pastor of this chapel also prefers large ceiling fans over air conditioning, so there is a high-decibel white-noise background level from the fans which is then punctuated by baby cries. There was a 2-year old child sitting in the pew behind me who now and then let out an ear-piercing scream. His 4-year old sister would then talk for a long time telling him to be quiet.

Their pew was not exceptional. There were noisier pews scattered throughout the chapel. The elderly pastor is nearly deaf, so I don't think he realizes what is going on. For worshippers, however, you can't have any idea what is being said if you don't follow your missal.

Personally, I'm used to this kind of chaos, and I'm pretty much able to filter it out and focus on praying the Mass. I can understand, however, that there are others who are simply unable to tolerate this kind of situation.

[awkwardcustomer]

well, I am once again faced with reality and am on my way to Mass with the brood of children.  Husband is out of town, so I must go it alone.  Even if he was not out of town, we would be going to 1 Mass, as a family, as that is what circumstances dictate.   I am willing to take anyone up on an offer to babysit, or you can send me $ though pay pal if you want to help me hire a babysitter for the littles...though it will most likely have to be Amish, since all my neighbors are Amish.....they dont charge as much though, so that is a good thing......PM me if interested 

So you DO have a choice. You choose to take your baby/toddler(s) to Mass rather than pay for an Amish babysitter.

How much would an Amish babysitter cost?

[Heinrich]

well, I am once again faced with reality and am on my way to Mass with the brood of children.  Husband is out of town, so I must go it alone.  Even if he was not out of town, we would be going to 1 Mass, as a family, as that is what circumstances dictate.   I am willing to take anyone up on an offer to babysit, or you can send me $ though pay pal if you want to help me hire a babysitter for the littles...though it will most likely have to be Amish, since all my neighbors are Amish.....they dont charge as much though, so that is a good thing......PM me if interested 

So you DO have a choice. You choose to take your baby/toddler(s) to Mass rather than pay for an Amish babysitter.

How much would an Amish babysitter cost?

I don't think she was being serious. And if she were, she solicited help to cover costs. Maybe you could dish out some jack for her.

[Gardener]

I'd pay $50 for awkward to babysit my kids while we went to Mass. She could buy a nice set of custom ear plugs with the money. Maybe even have enough left over for a $2 cup of extra strength reality.

[Heinrich]

I'd pay $50 for awkward to babysit my kids while we went to Mass. She could buy a nice set of custom ear plugs with the money. Maybe even have enough left over for a $2 cup of extra strength reality.

Things are cheap in OK.

[awkwardcustomer]

Where on this or other thread did trad parents say it was okay to remain inside the church with a noisy baby.
Unanimously we all agreed and have abided by the unwritten rule, baby makes noise mama or Papa steps outside.

I think that the posters who are objecting to noisy babies at Mass are reacting to real-life rather than to posters on this thread. To the extent that they disagree with some posters on this thread, it is probably because they see those posters as supporting the real-life people at their chapel who stay in church with noisy babies.

This morning, for example, I went to the chapel which has many noisy babies and many parents who don't believe in taking them out. The pastor of this chapel also prefers large ceiling fans over air conditioning, so there is a high-decibel white-noise background level from the fans which is then punctuated by baby cries. There was a 2-year old child sitting in the pew behind me who now and then let out an ear-piercing scream. His 4-year old sister would then talk for a long time telling him to be quiet.

Their pew was not exceptional. There were noisier pews scattered throughout the chapel. The elderly pastor is nearly deaf, so I don't think he realizes what is going on. For worshippers, however, you can't have any idea what is being said if you don't follow your missal.

Personally, I'm used to this kind of chaos, and I'm pretty much able to filter it out and focus on praying the Mass. I can understand, however, that there are others who are simply unable to tolerate this kind of situation.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the kind of chaotic noise and disturbance that characterises the typical Sunday Trad Mass.  What a nightmare!  How did it get to the stage where anyone objecting to the destruction of the beautiful silence of the Mass is regarded as some kind of bitter, twisted curmudgeon and becomes a target for all manner of catty comment?

The responsibility for this sad state of affairs must lie with the priests. All the Trad groups are the same. Trad priests somehow got it into their heads that the future of the Church lay with demographics. Trads have more babies than Modernists, they figured, and so in a couple of centuries, maybe, there will be so few Modernists left that Tradition will triumph.  Trad families consequently became associated with this future triumph and from then on they could do no wrong.

Of course, this is wrongheaded to say the least.  Trampling over today in the name of some future promise is a very Modern idea which never works and is entirely unjustified in this situation.  This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are talking about.  Destroying the reverence, attention, silence and awe that it deserves is hardly a basis for any kind of restoration.

Trying to effect change at parish level is hopeless, judging by the vitriol behind so many comments here.  A new Trad liturgical movement is needed, aimed at restoring the silence, reverence and attention of the TLM.  We need priests like St Ambrose, St John Chrysostom and St Leonard.  Or perhaps you know a retired priest who might say a private TLM for you and others like you. 

[orate]

Today's Gospel:  Feast of St. Michael

Matthew 18:1–5
Douay-Rheims Bible

AT that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who, thinkest thou, is the greater in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them.

3 And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.

Edited to add Matthew 18:10

See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

[bigbadtrad]

Awkward wanted tradition and rejected it, wanted a doctor of the Church and got one and rejected that.

I've met trad priests against small kids in Mass, I don't need a quote from a book, but they aren't a doctor or tradition. I've met trad priests who say "if the church isn't crying it's dying." I've heard both arguments many times.

Either way I respect the idea of silence in Mass, I respect the good intention of pious desires.

What I rejected was the false dichotomy of saying children shouldn't go to Mass and trad Masses are so loud. That's false by a long-shot and only believed by people who hear a child whimper and think parents are grabbing pom-poms cheering them on to scream louder and louder.

The idea a child can learn the habit of religion absent Mass and then by the age of reason miraculously be pious in a world of internet, TV, and incredible sound against God is silly. I challenge anyone to show me how a child in 2019 can take their religion seriously without living their faith in every dimension. We aren't in 1800 or even 1950 when we could depend on our families.

I've heard more loud rap music and other exterior distractions during any Mass in a city than children acting poorly. We can't wipe out the world unless you want to live a monastic life, and even then you have problems. I know first-hand when some guy would blast his music during our holy hour on purpose to get even with us for ringing the bells.

The point is I don't know one parent that willfully wants noise in a church, and yet does not see how they can raise their children in a Godly fashion without going to Mass themselves.

I watched my daughter start crying almost 3 years ago during a candle light Christmas Mass when she was not even 9. My children from my oldest to my youngest thought it was one of the most beautiful moments of their lives (the youngest was around 2) and talked about it to this day as one of the highlights of their life. They talked about it daily for weeks and the next Christmas it was one of the most anticipated moments of their year.

This is what the future of the Church is, and if it means they make a little noise we grow with it, and if they get loud I'll take them out happily, but don't be myopic and short-sighted. No one willfully wants noise in Mass, we want our children to grow with the public habit of religion, not because we hate your silence, but because we know it's best to raise children and we see the fruits of it.

[queen.saints]

St Ambrose insisted on complete quiet in his Mass, no coughing or moving at all, to the point of instilling holy fear into his parishioners; St Leonard of Port Maurice highlights the necessity of complete quiet and compares it to the Old Law when the sacrificing of animals was done in such total silence that one would think the church was empty. 

Some years ago when I was attending Mass at the SSPX chapel in Cincinnati, the problem was severe, and it was not only infants who were causing distraction, but also the adults getting up to go to the bathroom, etc. Some were spending the whole Mass in the basement social hall which had a speaker which was supposed to be used only by nursing mothers.

The pastor gave a sermon really dropping the hammer. Perhaps he did a little research on St. Ambrose and St. Leonard of Port Maurice.

Afterwards the result was startling. The improvement was tremendous. I guess that's a testimony to the good people of Cincinnati that they took his words to heart and straightened up immediately, rather than making a lot of excuses.

Yes, sometimes all it takes is having it brought to one's attention.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

[awkwardcustomer]

Awkward wanted tradition and rejected it, wanted a doctor of the Church and got one and rejected that.

How dare you. 

Still, one benefit of such spiteful and less than honest responses as yours have repeatedly been, is that we get to see what nastiness lies beneath so many Trad claims of piety and humility.

[awkwardcustomer]

It's just occurred to me what this is.

It's Trad style feminism and child-centredness.