The Splinters of Trad Groups Thread

Started by RedCaves, January 14, 2017, 08:36:39 PM

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Stubborn

Quote from: Obrien on January 17, 2017, 10:56:57 PM
Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

They seem to be connected with Fr. Anthony Ward's group in Colorado Springs, CO. - Servants of the Holy Family.

I can't say much about that group, but I did know Fr. Ward. He studied in Econe and was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre and, replacing Fr. Bonfil in the early 1970s, Fr. Ward was the first official SSPX priest in the USA.

After only a few years, he left the SSPX (rather abruptly as I recall) and moved himself and the small group of seminarians he was training to Colorado Springs and started his own chapel, which is where they've been for the last 40 years or so.

Having lost touch with him since he left, that's about all I know about that situation, but I can say that as a young priest, he used to give some sermons that would stop you right in your tracks!
   
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

LausTibiChriste

Quote from: Stubborn on January 18, 2017, 04:41:07 AM
Quote from: Obrien on January 17, 2017, 10:56:57 PM
Anyone ever hear of this group?

http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/index.htm

They seem to be connected with Fr. Anthony Ward's group in Colorado Springs, CO. - Servants of the Holy Family.

I can't say much about that group, but I did know Fr. Ward. He studied in Econe and was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre and, replacing Fr. Bonfil in the early 1970s, Fr. Ward was the first official SSPX priest in the USA.

After only a few years, he left the SSPX (rather abruptly as I recall) and moved himself and the small group of seminarians he was training to Colorado Springs and started his own chapel, which is where they've been for the last 40 years or so.

Having lost touch with him since he left, that's about all I know about that situation, but I can say that as a young priest, he used to give some sermons that would stop you right in your tracks!


Are they in full communion with Rome and approved by their Bishop?

I buy my scapulars from them
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

Kaesekopf

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on January 18, 2017, 05:17:28 AM
Are they in full communion with Rome and approved by their Bishop?

I buy my scapulars from them

Nope and nope.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

abc123

Quote from: Kaesekopf on January 18, 2017, 12:53:01 AM
Quote from: abc123 on January 17, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on January 17, 2017, 02:34:59 PM
They are schismatics, that much is obvious.
What specifically makes them schismatic?

They have (somehow?) established their own "episcopal see".

"Traditional Roman Catholic Church
(Latin Rite) Episcopal See"

and
"Shermanus Randallus Pius Moslei,D.D.,
Prime Bishop of the Traditional Roman Catholic Church"

None of the other traddy bishops arrogate such things to themselves, as far as I know (even if the SSPX regularly uses the trappings of jurisdiction...).

Gotcha. I overlooked that.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2017, 01:18:51 AM
I am fascinated in seeing an almost all black TLM congregation. I wish we had more of that.

Why? 

YeOldeFustilarians

Quote from: Prayerful on January 17, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.
Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

Flick

From:  http://maps.thefullwiki.org/Servants_of_the_Holy_Family

"Father Anthony Ward was ordained a priest (validly but illicitly, in the view of the Catholic Church) in 1973 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the Society of Saint Pius X. The newly-minted young priest was Lefebvre's first personal representative in the United States, and also first superior of the first SSPX seminary in the United States, in Armada, Michigan. At Christmas time of 1976 Father Ward traveled to Switzerland to meet with Lefebvre, and whatever happened there was not pleasing to Ward. Returning to the US, the young priest persuaded most of "his" seminarians to follow him in early 1977 to found a religious order in Colorado Springs . . . "

For the rest of the article go to web page and very interesting data in the footnotes, one being quoted below.

". . .the motivation for Anthony Ward's trip to Switzerland Christmas 1976 may have related to Lefebvre having replaced Ward with someone else as Lefebvre's personal representative in the US. Clarence Kelly, seminary classmate of Ward's who replaced Ward as Lefebvre's US representative, would later (1983) be expelled from the SSPX by Archbishop Lefebvre together with three other priests, because they refused to celebrate the Mass according to the Missal of 1962 but insisted on an even earlier version of the Mass, apparently due to their doubts about the legitimacy of all the Popes since Pius XII (died 1958). The expelled priests founded the Society of Saint Pius V. This perhaps ties together Kellner's and Cure's speculations about why Ward left the SSPX, perhaps because he was replaced as "country leader" and the replacement was someone whose sedevacantist ideology he found intolerable."

Will leave the above quoted footnote to speak for itself regarding the replacement of Fr. Ward with Fr. Kelly.  I'm shy about poking a nest with a stick!  :)
". . . we will jealously protect the small but still burning candle of our traditional Catholic Faith, and patiently carry on our spiritual Resistance movement without the hoped-for papal approval." Fr. Gommar A. DePauw, August 15, 1967, Letter to Paul VI, www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm.

martin88nyc

Our TLM chapel "organizer", Mr. "Anonymous" orders calendars from the Servants of the HF.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Stubborn

Quote from: Flick on January 18, 2017, 02:14:09 PM
From:  http://maps.thefullwiki.org/Servants_of_the_Holy_Family

Will leave the above quoted footnote to speak for itself regarding the replacement of Fr. Ward with Fr. Kelly.  I'm shy about poking a nest with a stick!  :)

Outside of Fr. Ward and perhaps his seminarians, I don't think anyone alive knows the real reason why he left, either way, 40 years ago Fr. Ward was awesome and if I lived near his chapel, I'd certainly go there for Mass and the sacraments. 

Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

Prayerful

#24
Quote from: YeOldeFustilarians on January 18, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on January 17, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.

CMRI originates with the old Catholic (one Daniel Q Brown an associate) consecrated Francis Schuckardt, and more can be discovered with a little research. I exaggerate somewhat, but Duarte-Costa orders have most of the same issues as Old Catholic orders, and they also are extensively used. The SSPV obviously originate with the SSPX, but they are not dogmatic sedevacantists. Anyhow, even if the many orders were one, sedevacantists remain extraordinarily fissile.

Returning to African sedevacantists, there's one Archbishop Michael A Kwame of Ghana.

Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Bonaventure

Quote from: Miriam_M on January 18, 2017, 07:22:49 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2017, 01:18:51 AM
I am fascinated in seeing an almost all black TLM congregation. I wish we had more of that.

Why?

Not enough blacks who attend the traditional sacraments. When blacks do have a Church, its like Obama's priest Pfluger in Chicago.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

YeOldeFustilarians

Quote from: Prayerful on January 18, 2017, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: YeOldeFustilarians on January 18, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on January 17, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.

CMRI originates with the old Catholic (one Daniel Q Brown an associate) consecrated Francis Schuckardt, and more can be discovered with a little research. I exaggerate somewhat, but Duarte-Costa orders have most of the same issues as Old Catholic orders, and they also are extensively used. The SSPV obviously originate with the SSPX, but they are not dogmatic sedevacantists. Anyhow, even if the many orders were one, sedevacantists remain extraordinarily fissile.

Returning to African sedevacantists, there's one Archbishop Michael A Kwame of Ghana.

Of course you were exaggerating, because evidently you couldn't resist another smear.

I know about Schuckhardt.  He was run out of town, and anyone who received orders from him was conditionally ordained. 

Duarte-Costa are hardly "extensively used" either, and when they are, they're viewed suspiciously by the rest of the sedevacantists.  Duarte-Costa are used by sedeplenists, too (e.g., Patrick Taylor), maybe there's a rivalry among you lot too!

Come to think of it, there are more women who've been ordained by sedeplenists than there are sedevacantists who've been ordained by Old Catholics.  Perhaps for sedeplenists, there is a rivalry over whether or not their priests should be men or women.
Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2017, 06:46:54 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on January 18, 2017, 07:22:49 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2017, 01:18:51 AM
I am fascinated in seeing an almost all black TLM congregation. I wish we had more of that.

Why?

Not enough blacks who attend the traditional sacraments. When blacks do have a Church, its like Obama's priest Pfluger in Chicago.

I certainly agree with the not-enough black trads observation.  (There seems to be exactly one American black at our trad chapel; the few others there are originally from Africa, not the U.S.)  I guess I was surprised about the "almost-all-black" presence being something to be "wished for."  You may already be aware of the famous quote (I don't remember who said it, decades ago) that the most segregated day of the week in this country is Sunday.  I don't necessarily look forward to a continuation of that segregation, but rather to more of the Protestant crowd (members of any race or ethnicity) warming more to traditional Catholicism. 

Perhaps that's what you meant; it wasn't clear to me.

Chestertonian

Why do I keep reading the thread tutle as "spinsters and not "splinters"
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Prayerful

Quote from: YeOldeFustilarians on January 18, 2017, 08:05:56 PM
Quote from: Prayerful on January 18, 2017, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: YeOldeFustilarians on January 18, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on January 17, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Old Catholic orders rival Thuc line orders among sedevacantists

Oh please, no they don't.

CMRI originates with the old Catholic (one Daniel Q Brown an associate) consecrated Francis Schuckardt, and more can be discovered with a little research. I exaggerate somewhat, but Duarte-Costa orders have most of the same issues as Old Catholic orders, and they also are extensively used. The SSPV obviously originate with the SSPX, but they are not dogmatic sedevacantists. Anyhow, even if the many orders were one, sedevacantists remain extraordinarily fissile.

Returning to African sedevacantists, there's one Archbishop Michael A Kwame of Ghana.

Of course you were exaggerating, because evidently you couldn't resist another smear.

I know about Schuckhardt.  He was run out of town, and anyone who received orders from him was conditionally ordained. 

Duarte-Costa are hardly "extensively used" either, and when they are, they're viewed suspiciously by the rest of the sedevacantists.  Duarte-Costa are used by sedeplenists, too (e.g., Patrick Taylor), maybe there's a rivalry among you lot too!

Come to think of it, there are more women who've been ordained by sedeplenists than there are sedevacantists who've been ordained by Old Catholics.  Perhaps for sedeplenists, there is a rivalry over whether or not their priests should be men or women.

:lol:

Nearly all 'Independent' or Old Catholic splinters who've had pretended ordinations of women use Old Catholic orders or Thuc-Palmarian (eg Bishop Cox who 'ordained' Sinead O'Connor for having paid for treatment for illnesses resulting from Cox's flamboyant lifestyle), and are not exactly 'sedeplenist.' Cox certainly isn't. Ultrecht Union-Old Catholics reject communion with the Pope, and Old Catholics are main source of orders for women 'consecrants' . Independent chapels ofttimes hold no dogmatic position, and are not strictly 'sedeplenist.' The Thuc line Bp Slupski, who witnessed Markus Ramolla's consecration by fellow Thuc Bp and consecrant, Robert Dymek, rejects the sedevacantist label, but is likely so de-facto. 
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.