Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

The Church Courtyard => Ask a Traditionalist => Topic started by: Chestertonian on August 27, 2021, 04:13:30 PM

Title: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Chestertonian on August 27, 2021, 04:13:30 PM
Fr Schneider on his blog posted a list of other medications that, like the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, were tested on HEK293 cell lines

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughcatholiclenses/2021/01/if-any-drug-tested-on-hek-293-is-immoral-goodbye-modern-medicine/

The other drugs include:

Tylenol/acetaminophen
Advil/Motrin/ibuprofen
Aleve/naproxen sodium
Aspirin
Sudafed
Benadryl
Sudafed
Claritin/loratidine
Dextromethorphan/Tussin/Robitussin
Guafenisin/Mucinex
 Tums
Maalox
Colace
Exlax
Preparation H
Sudafed PE
Lidocaine/Lidoderm
Omeprazole/Prilosec
Albuterol
Losartan/metoprolol/lopressor/valsartan
Atorvastatin/Lipitor
Levothyroxine/synthroid
Hydroxychloroquine/Plaquenil
Ivermectin
Azithromycin/Zithromax
Remdesivor
Enbrel
Metformin/glucophage
Cerivastatin/Fluvastatin/pravastatin
Simvastatin/Zocor

And that's just some of the most commonly used medications.  Why is it that trads seem fixated on vaccines tested on HEK293 but not other pharmaceutical products?  I know it's a bit more common among trads to embrace "natural" remedies and avoid using medication but what I tend to see is that many turn to conventional medicine if the natural stuff isn't enough. 

Obviously I'm not one of said Catholics... I got vaccinated as soon as I could.  But many Catholics I know have jumped on the antivax train even though they're not specifically anti medicine


Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on August 27, 2021, 04:26:45 PM
The majority of those drugs are actually lifesaving and without ethical alternatives.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Prayerful on August 27, 2021, 05:32:00 PM
The COVID jab appears to do nothing for most, and it positively dangerous for some. The list above are often provide the only chance to the gravely ill.

That said the LC priest has a point. His list is only partial and it also includes a lot of commonly used products. HEK-293 has been used for testing and developing a vast array of treatments. Fr suggests encouraging a move away from it.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: diaduit on August 28, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
Not a problem for me to avoid those as there are alternatives for them.

I took my Dad off Lipitor for his cholesterol and literally overnight (not literally like a surfer dude uses but literally in the real sense) his cognitive function improved unbelievably to the point that he shocked everyone for months after with how he was doing.

I fixed my 15 year low blood pressure problem with hawthorn tincture.

I am having great success with my breathing allergies with homeopathic remedies.



oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972 and I find it funny that the 3 actual worthwhile cures for covid are on this list....I looked very briefly at some of the published material and they were experiments carried out not by the makers of the drug or the inventors but research teams who were testing these products for other reasons in last 15 years....long after the development of the product.  Its like I form a research team to test sudafed using hek cells to see if they turn the tablet pink, that does not make sudafed immoral or culpable ....I am open to correction on that but it was a brief look.

Fr Schneider is as covid cult as you can get.






Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Christe Eleison on August 28, 2021, 04:05:19 PM
Not a problem for me to avoid those as there are alternatives for them.

I took my Dad off Lipitor for his cholesterol and literally overnight (not literally like a surfer dude uses but literally in the real sense) his cognitive function improved unbelievably to the point that he shocked everyone for months after with how he was doing.

I fixed my 15 year low blood pressure problem with hawthorn tincture.

I am having great success with my breathing allergies with homeopathic remedies.



oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972 and I find it funny that the 3 actual worthwhile cures for covid are on this list....I looked very briefly at some of the published material and they were experiments carried out not by the makers of the drug or the inventors but research teams who were testing these products for other reasons in last 15 years....long after the development of the product.  Its like I form a research team to test sudafed using hek cells to see if they turn the tablet pink, that does not make sudafed immoral or culpable ....I am open to correction on that but it was a brief look.

Fr Schneider is as covid cult as you can get.

Dear DIADUIT, :seeya:

I miss seeing you around the forum, like in the past!
I bet you are glad now, that you got those chicks & goat, right? ;)

Do you know the reason/cause behind the low blood pressure?

I have read that it can often be due to dehydration....

One of the things that I dislike about doctors & pharmaceuticals, is that they never try to find the reason, why you have this or that, just pop a pill to mitigate the problem, not solve the underlying issue.

Thanks in advance!

God Bless you & your loved ones! :pray2:
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Michael Wilson on August 28, 2021, 05:53:12 PM
"Aspirin"? Developed from HEK293?
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Ragnarok on August 28, 2021, 05:56:43 PM
For me, the only medicine worth skepticism (worth skepticism, not rejecting them) are antidepressants (especially SSRIs). Many Psychiatrists view depression as an economic equation with chemicals that need to be balanced, rather than something in your life causing it. You should be skeptical.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: The Curt Jester on August 28, 2021, 06:37:33 PM
I think you have to realize that the push-back is also about government forcing people to take medications they don't need.  So it's two things combined which makes it much more likely that people will resist.  There would probably be more resistance to Claritin if the government suddenly said that we couldn't go into grocery stores until we could prove that we have been taking it daily for at least a week.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Miriam_M on August 28, 2021, 07:23:11 PM
The majority of those drugs are actually lifesaving and without ethical alternatives.

In my case this is literally true for easily 5 on the list.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on August 28, 2021, 08:01:34 PM
oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972

I hadn't even noticed this, but your post is the most important one here.  This omission invalidates his point completely.

The jabs were tested on aborted children in order to bring them to market.

Many of these drugs were tested on aborted children after they had already been on the market for decades.

If a man can't spot the difference, I would question his judgment.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: mikemac on August 28, 2021, 08:04:38 PM
"Aspirin"? Developed from HEK293?

Yeah the list doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: OCLittleFlower on August 28, 2021, 09:28:41 PM
"Aspirin"? Developed from HEK293?

I think they're including drugs that have been tested on fetal cells. Which is hard to avoid, sadly.

Some drugs, like the J&J and AstraZeneca shots, are developed using the fetal cell lines. Others are simply tested using them. And such tests can be done decades after a drug is first developed and used, as is the case with asprin. It's kind of like the whole animal testing debate -- you'd be hard pressed to find a product where nothing in it was ever tested on animals, as a lot of the basic ingredients have been, at some point or another.

Personally, I haven't taken anything on that list in a decade or more, but not due to any awareness of how they're tested. (I have a LOT of allergies, enough that it isn't wise for me to take any vaccines whatsoever as any new substance is a significant risk -- I've had two severe reactions to two very different vaccines and was told not to get anymore shots in the future.)

The Novus Ordo types make a distinction between the J&J that was developed using the fetal cells and the ones where it was simply used in testing. I can understand that, though there are such significant health and safety issues with the mRNA shots that I think it's within anyone's right to use their God given decision making to avoid it, even if it might be permissible under the principle of double effect to use it. And, considering the risks, the whole double effect argument starts to break down a bit, especially for the young and healthy. Even if the mRNA shots had no ethical issues as relates to abortion, I would still be unwilling to accept a dose, just based on the safety profile. (And that would be true even if I didn't have a history of adverse reactions.)

And of course I agree with others who point out that this injustice was done in order to market the product, rather than being done after the fact.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: diaduit on August 29, 2021, 07:34:56 AM
Not a problem for me to avoid those as there are alternatives for them.

I took my Dad off Lipitor for his cholesterol and literally overnight (not literally like a surfer dude uses but literally in the real sense) his cognitive function improved unbelievably to the point that he shocked everyone for months after with how he was doing.

I fixed my 15 year low blood pressure problem with hawthorn tincture.

I am having great success with my breathing allergies with homeopathic remedies.



oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972 and I find it funny that the 3 actual worthwhile cures for covid are on this list....I looked very briefly at some of the published material and they were experiments carried out not by the makers of the drug or the inventors but research teams who were testing these products for other reasons in last 15 years....long after the development of the product.  Its like I form a research team to test sudafed using hek cells to see if they turn the tablet pink, that does not make sudafed immoral or culpable ....I am open to correction on that but it was a brief look.

Fr Schneider is as covid cult as you can get.

Dear DIADUIT, :seeya:

I miss seeing you around the forum, like in the past!
I bet you are glad now, that you got those chicks & goat, right? ;)

Do you know the reason/cause behind the low blood pressure?

I have read that it can often be due to dehydration....

One of the things that I dislike about doctors & pharmaceuticals, is that they never try to find the reason, why you have this or that, just pop a pill to mitigate the problem, not solve the underlying issue.

Thanks in advance!

God Bless you & your loved ones! :pray2:

Ah thank you darlin'  but I've been having a ball over the summer up and down to our holiday mobile in Co Clare so I've been busy...low bp came from my second pregnancy and never left when the baby left :) drinking water can help but its a quick fix/short term.   I take Hawthorn when I feel the signs of low bp such as dizziness or fuzzy thinking and sometimes heart flutters.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Prayerful on August 29, 2021, 08:01:15 AM
"Aspirin"? Developed from HEK293?

Yes I don't think Bayer went to some back street abortionists to get cells for developing their medication in the late 19th century. Fr Schneider LC has a patreon. I'm surprising a priest of that wealthy cult needs extra funds, although in fairness most priests, unless they're from a wealthy family, have very little. Although with LC and Opus Dei, money generally flows upwards only. Perhaps his autism makes him a bit dogmatic on the matter, for I don't think Big Pharma are cutting cheques for him. Yet HEK293 is very widely used, and can be unavoidable.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Lynne on August 29, 2021, 11:03:54 AM
oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972

I hadn't even noticed this, but your post is the most important one here.  This omission invalidates his point completely.

The jabs were tested on aborted children in order to bring them to market.

Many of these drugs were tested on aborted children after they had already been on the market for decades.

If a man can't spot the difference, I would question his judgment.

This is why you don't read Pathos...very poor website.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on September 01, 2021, 10:06:30 PM
Should Catholics reject modern medicine?

"Modern medicine" is a comprehensive term but a generic answer to the question is no. The Church has never indicated otherwise.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Tennessean on September 01, 2021, 10:32:15 PM
I don't know. What's interesting to me, when I took my medical exam for barge work, I was told I had better than 20/20 vision. Yet when I've paid the optometrist a visit, I've been told my eye sight is getting worse, every time, and I need new glasses. One doesn't want me to be a liability, the other is selling something... I'm very skeptical toward the whole system, and not just recently.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: MaximGun on September 02, 2021, 06:16:17 AM
I only reject the parts of modern medicine I don't need.

The vaccine is rubbish anyway.  Booster shots every 5 months means it is next to useless.  Who wants a new shot every 5 months?  That is crazy.  This whole thing has been mismanaged from beginning to end.  I don't buy "it is deliberate and companies are making money from it".  In every crisis some company makes money.   In my view the Chinese created a chimera and the world refused to take action against them.  The Chinese are probably planning
to do it again.

Thanks to the CCP and their GoF research (paid for by the USA's deep state) we are going to have to simply live with Sars-Covid just as a part of Eastern Europe learned to live with radiation from Chernobyl.  In time it will just be considered another disease like influenza.

God has withdrawn His grace from the world, since far less masses are offered and prayers said and so we are devolving back to more brutal times.  We will see, even more than we have seen, what a world that rejects God is like.  Awful.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: MaximGun on September 02, 2021, 06:22:57 AM
Article ends with the P.S.  "Please support me on Patreon so I can write more about Catholic moral theology".

Are priests not given a salary, fed, watered and given free housing?

Why on earth do he need you need to contribute money, so he can write?  Is he giving up paid work to write articles?  Does his salary drop when he spends 3 hours writing?

The social media and blogsphere world is essentially a bunch of beggars, the best of them on 6 figures, in begging bowl money.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Philip G. on September 04, 2021, 01:35:06 PM
What is modern medicine?  I tend to think that modern medicine predominantly addressed symptoms, and does not address causes.  If that is accurate, then "rejection"(of modern medicine) aside, I do not think that Catholics should "embrace" such medicine.     

Does said modern medicinal approach directly strengthen ones immune system?  If it doesn't, said medicinal approach shouldn't be embraced.  And, on the other hand, said modern medicine that "directly" weakens ones immune system should be "rejected" in my opinion.

Herbal medicine can directly strengthen ones immune system, and I don't believe it ever directly "weakens" ones immune system.  And, it is considered by all to be medicine.  Yet, it is the modern medicine "authority" that forbids herbal medicine's claim to a "cure".  Because, as I referenced above, modern medicine doesn't address causes, and therefor is incapable of providing a cure.  It logically follows.  Modern medicine is also dogmatic, by the very fact that it forbids other "medicine" from stating claims, of a cure in this case, as an "authority" might.  This dogmatic nature of modern medicine is an indication that it is actually not medicine, but in fact quasi religion.  Perhaps we are getting into a realm meriting "rejection" after all.


Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: diaduit on September 07, 2021, 07:12:49 PM
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

As I thought.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Lynne on September 07, 2021, 07:35:56 PM
Article ends with the P.S.  "Please support me on Patreon so I can write more about Catholic moral theology".

Are priests not given a salary, fed, watered and given free housing?

Why on earth do he need you need to contribute money, so he can write?  Is he giving up paid work to write articles?  Does his salary drop when he spends 3 hours writing?

The social media and blogsphere world is essentially a bunch of beggars, the best of them on 6 figures, in begging bowl money.

Patheos is an AWFUL website. It does not attract talented writers.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Clare on September 08, 2021, 04:09:11 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

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Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: mikemac on September 08, 2021, 04:39:15 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Dr. Brian Kopp, the person that wrote the first article above used to post regularly in the Fish Eaters Forum.  He posted in this forum up to about five years ago too.  Back in the Fish Eaters Forum he organized a petition that was sent directly to Vladimir Putin's office asking him to ask the Pope of the time (Benedict I think) to consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.  It was just before Putin was to visit Rome.  It was a good effort, with a very good letter to Putin but nothing ever came of it.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Prayerful on September 08, 2021, 06:38:28 PM
Article ends with the P.S.  "Please support me on Patreon so I can write more about Catholic moral theology".

Are priests not given a salary, fed, watered and given free housing?

Why on earth do he need you need to contribute money, so he can write?  Is he giving up paid work to write articles?  Does his salary drop when he spends 3 hours writing?

The social media and blogsphere world is essentially a bunch of beggars, the best of them on 6 figures, in begging bowl money.

Priests don't necessarily have much. If a parish is poor, so too will the priest be. The same can hold for Orders, although money tends to flow upwards only. The LC are reckoned to have assets of rough $1bn, so surely they can pay him a decent stipend. Unless he is fathering children, which I think unlikely, whatever he gets is probably enough.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Maximilian on September 08, 2021, 09:41:35 PM

Dr. Brian Kopp, the person that wrote the first article above used to post regularly in the Fish Eaters Forum. 

I remember him from the long-ago days of FreeRepublic and Angelqueen. We disagreed on a few things, but he was a good guy with many excellent posts.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Kopp on September 09, 2021, 12:48:40 PM

Dr. Brian Kopp, the person that wrote the first article above used to post regularly in the Fish Eaters Forum.  He posted in this forum up to about five years ago too.  Back in the Fish Eaters Forum he organized a petition that was sent directly to Vladimir Putin's office asking him to ask the Pope of the time (Benedict I think) to consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.  It was just before Putin was to visit Rome.  It was a good effort, with a very good letter to Putin but nothing ever came of it.

I remember him from the long-ago days of FreeRepublic and Angelqueen. We disagreed on a few things, but he was a good guy with many excellent posts.
Hi guys,
Thanks, great to “see” you both! I haven’t visited this forum in a number of years but Clare had asked me a question about that Patheos article over on Facebook and my response to her inquiry there formed a large part of my article at CMR.

I think the subsequent Crisis article used my CMR article arguments as a launching point. It would have been nice to get a link in the Crisis article but at least the subterfuge of the Patheos article and author are being exposed.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Kopp on September 09, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

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Thanks Clare. You precipitated both these articles so take a bit of credit!
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Kopp on September 09, 2021, 01:15:34 PM
We disagreed on a few things, but he was a good guy with many excellent posts.
Frankly I didn’t know what the he!! I was talking about back then regarding traditional issues, theology and liturgy. Hopefully I’ve woken up a bit since then.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Clare on September 09, 2021, 01:18:36 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

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Thanks Clare. You precipitated both these articles so take a bit of credit!
Did I precipitate the Crisis one too??

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: mikemac on September 09, 2021, 01:25:27 PM

Dr. Brian Kopp, the person that wrote the first article above used to post regularly in the Fish Eaters Forum.  He posted in this forum up to about five years ago too.  Back in the Fish Eaters Forum he organized a petition that was sent directly to Vladimir Putin's office asking him to ask the Pope of the time (Benedict I think) to consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.  It was just before Putin was to visit Rome.  It was a good effort, with a very good letter to Putin but nothing ever came of it.

I remember him from the long-ago days of FreeRepublic and Angelqueen. We disagreed on a few things, but he was a good guy with many excellent posts.
Hi guys,
Thanks, great to “see” you both! I haven’t visited this forum in a number of years but Clare had asked me a question about that Patheos article over on Facebook and my response to her inquiry there formed a large part of my article at CMR.

I think the subsequent Crisis article used my CMR article arguments as a launching point. It would have been nice to get a link in the Crisis article but at least the subterfuge of the Patheos article and author are being exposed.

Welcome back.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Kopp on September 09, 2021, 01:34:15 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Thanks Clare. You precipitated both these articles so take a bit of credit!
Did I precipitate the Crisis one too??

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I really doubt the Crisis one would have been written if I had not outlined the problems with that Patheos article at CMR. The Crisis article was very well done but it was definitely spawned by the article at CMR. IMHO.
Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Clare on September 09, 2021, 04:08:32 PM
A couple of articles that address the issue:

https://creativeminorityreport.com/blog/2021/09/02/not-so-fast-the-very-misleading-article-by-a-priest-on-drugs-and-abortion-testing/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/stop-pretending-the-covid-jab-is-morally-equivalent-to-other-meds

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Thanks Clare. You precipitated both these articles so take a bit of credit!
Did I precipitate the Crisis one too??

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
I really doubt the Crisis one would have been written if I had not outlined the problems with that Patheos article at CMR. The Crisis article was very well done but it was definitely spawned by the article at CMR. IMHO.
Cool!

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Title: Re: Should Catholics reject modern medicine?
Post by: Acolyte on September 09, 2021, 09:21:39 PM
Not a problem for me to avoid those as there are alternatives for them.

I took my Dad off Lipitor for his cholesterol and literally overnight (not literally like a surfer dude uses but literally in the real sense) his cognitive function improved unbelievably to the point that he shocked everyone for months after with how he was doing.

I fixed my 15 year low blood pressure problem with hawthorn tincture.

I am having great success with my breathing allergies with homeopathic remedies.



oh and btw hydroxychloroquine is on the market for over 60 years, HEK cells are only used since 1972 and I find it funny that the 3 actual worthwhile cures for covid are on this list....I looked very briefly at some of the published material and they were experiments carried out not by the makers of the drug or the inventors but research teams who were testing these products for other reasons in last 15 years....long after the development of the product.  Its like I form a research team to test sudafed using hek cells to see if they turn the tablet pink, that does not make sudafed immoral or culpable ....I am open to correction on that but it was a brief look.

Fr Schneider is as covid cult as you can get.

Hawthorn works for me as well.