Good statement for Sedevacantism

Lynne · August 16, 2023, 04:20:57 PM

Quote from: Miriam_M on August 16, 2023, 04:09:55 PMI have never quite agreed that there should be (as there is now) a single baptism accepted across all Christian denominations. It seems to me that one is baptized into a specific set of religious beliefs, not just "Christianity in general." Even without the papacy, there is the "problem"/reality of Mariology, which is indeed essential to Catholicism: "born of the Virgin Mary" is in the Apostles' Creed.

What a beautiful thought.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez · August 16, 2023, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on August 16, 2023, 04:17:46 PMC.J.
QuoteThere are "members" of the visible Church who are most definitely cut off because they are in grave sin, and there are "non-members" of the visible Church who will be saved, owing to their invincible ignorance, in spite of whatever their "religion" is.
Pius XII
QuoteFor not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.
Grave sin does not cut us off from membership in the Church.
For again the Church is a "visible" society composed of those who outwardly confess the Catholic faith.

It does not cut us off from membership in the visible Church. But it does cut us off from sanctifying grace. My failure to proofread and specify that, though.

Michael Wilson · August 16, 2023, 04:29:18 PM

QuoteI completely agree with the Chairman on this, Michael. What was quoted is not saying that there is no distinction between Catholic and non-Catholic Christians. And of course, the non-Catholic Christians would disavow essential union with Catholics, since they reject the papacy. What is being discussed is style and approach, not religious identity.

The Pope stated that there is a "deep communion" that exists between Catholics and members of other false sects:

Quotemore readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions.

How is this "deep communion" linked to the baptismal character?
The Pope also stated:

Quote, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers

First, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with the sermon on the Mount.
Secondly, one does have to consider those of false religions as "stangers" to the Catholic Church.

QuoteI have never quite agreed that there should be (as there is now) a single baptism accepted across all Christian denominations. It seems to me that one is baptized into a specific set of religious beliefs, not just "Christianity in general."

Yes, Baptism only baptizes one into the Catholic Church or doesn't baptize one at all. There is no "Protestant"; Anglican; etc. Baptism.

QuoteEven without the papacy, there is the "problem"/reality of Mariology, which is indeed essential to Catholicism: "born of the Virgin Mary" is in the Apostles' Creed.

Those who deny a single doctrine of the Catholic faith no longer have supernatural faith and are also no longer members of the Church if they do so publicly.

QuoteBy the way, the quoted interpretation of the Sermon of the Mount is off, i.m.o., as one who wrote about this in grad school, as it was the subject of my thesis.

O.K.

QuoteAs to membership specifically in the Catholic Church, we all know --or should know-- that is permanent.

Pius XII M.C. Stated the contrary.

QuoteI know there's been a lot of talk in sede forums, including on SD, that apostasy "makes one not Catholic," but if it did, apostasy would not be a sin but a canonical break with the bosom of the Church, thereafter relieving us of responsibility to Church law. Rather, apostasy makes one a mortally sinful Catholic, not a "non-Catholic." If we apostasize, even for a short time, we have to confess it; if we embrace heresy, we have to confess it because we are still Catholic.

No, it separates us from membership in the Church. We are no longer Catholic; and it is also a Mortal Sin.

Michael Wilson · August 16, 2023, 04:30:51 PM

C.J.

QuoteIt does not cut us off from membership in the visible Church. But it does cut us off from sanctifying grace. My failure to proofread and specify that, though.

Pius XII

QuoteFor not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

It cannot be stated any more clearly than this.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez · August 17, 2023, 05:33:11 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on August 16, 2023, 04:30:51 PMC.J.
QuoteIt does not cut us off from membership in the visible Church. But it does cut us off from sanctifying grace. My failure to proofread and specify that, though.
Pius XII
QuoteFor not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.
It cannot be stated any more clearly than this.

How does that contradict my statement that you quoted?

Michael Wilson · August 17, 2023, 06:19:57 AM

C.J.
I can be in the state of Mortal Sin and still be a member of the Church;for example I commit adultery; I still confess the Catholic faith; I have not denied one of her teachings. In order to be a member of the Church I have to confess the Catholic faith; that is why Pius XII stated that not every sin by its very nature cuts us off from membership in the Mystical Body i.e. The Church. As does those sins that do, such as heresy, schism and apostasy. For heresy is the deliberate denial of one of the teachings of the Church; schism, refusal to be subject to the Pope and bishops in union with him; Apostasy, the total abandonement of the faith.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez · August 17, 2023, 06:23:37 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on August 17, 2023, 06:19:57 AMC.J.
I can be in the state of Mortal Sin and still be a member of the Church;for example I commit adultery; I still confess the Catholic faith; I have not denied one of her teachings. In order to be a member of the Church I have to confess the Catholic faith; that is why Pius XII stated that not every sin by its very nature cuts us off from membership in the Mystical Body i.e. The Church. As does those sins that do, such as heresy, schism and apostasy. For heresy is the deliberate denial of one of the teachings of the Church; schism, refusal to be subject to the Pope and bishops in union with him; Apostasy, the total abandonement of the faith.

Yes. I didn't say that someone in grave sin isn't a member of the Church. I specified that he is cut off from sanctifying grace.

Michael Wilson · August 17, 2023, 04:44:40 PM

C.J.
Thanks for clarifying.
Being in the state of grace is not a requirement for being a member of the Church; there are people who are in the state of grace that are not members of the Church; and people that are in mortal sin, that are. That is why Pius XII specified: "severed from the body of the Church".

lauermar · November 10, 2023, 03:42:24 AM

I have been ready to go Sedevacantist for some time. I've been following Novusordowatch blog for a decade. My husband is holding us back. He doesn't want to travel 40 miles to a Sedevacantist chapel. I told him that if our Latin mass parish closes, we will have no other choice. I will not return to a local Novus Ordo parish given the current direction. If I see a gay marriage blessing, homosexual baptisms, or ordained women at mass, I will leave and never return. I said he can keep going at the risk of losing his faith. But I will cancel all electronic donations to the Archdiocese.

Baylee · November 10, 2023, 06:51:35 AM

Quote from: lauermar on November 10, 2023, 03:42:24 AMI have been ready to go Sedevacantist for some time. I've been following Novusordowatch blog for a decade. My husband is holding us back. He doesn't want to travel 40 miles to a Sedevacantist chapel. I told him that if our Latin mass parish closes, we will have no other choice. I will not return to a local Novus Ordo parish given the current direction. If I see a gay marriage blessing, homosexual baptisms, or ordained women at mass, I will leave and never return. I said he can keep going at the risk of losing his faith. But I will cancel all electronic donations to the Archdiocese.

Good to hear you've changed your position. Sorry to hear about your husband and how that might be affecting things.

Is the distance the only thing holding him back? If so, 40 miles seems short to me, and I'm sure many other sedes too. In fact, many would be ecstatic if their masses were so close!

Many people travel farther in order to get to work. If this is the only issue, tell him that there are many Catholics who go to sedevacantist chapels that are much further away and still go weekly. I know someone who travels 90 miles one way.