Bishop Sanborn discusses the Una-Cum Mass

awkward customer · July 04, 2023, 03:36:21 AM

If I have understood this correctly, His Excellency is saying that a Mass is only legitimate if it is said in union with the "competent authority", which is ultimately the Pope. Each Mass is an action of the priest and the Church.

Therefore any Mass said in union with "Francis, our Pope" is not said in union with a competent authority.

What this actually means, I'm not exactly sure.

Can anyone explain this further?

Stubborn · July 04, 2023, 04:50:39 AM

Whenever I watch one of his videos, I can only get a minute or two into it before I see how sad it is to see what he did to himself, what has become of him, how far off base he has gone since his days as a newly ordained priest from of Econe. Needless to say I only made it about 90 seconds into this one.

From 1989, here is Archbishop Lefebvre on the subject:

QuoteConcerning the position of Archbishop Lefebvre on the "non una cum" sedevacantist position, after the Episcopal consecrations of 1988; here is an excerpt from a conference given by Archbishop Lefebvre during a retreat preached to the sisters of Saint-Michel en Brenne 1, France, on April 1st, 1989 (AUDIO excerpt attached).

« ... And then, he (Dom Guillou O.S.B. 2) goes through all the prayers of the Canon, all the prayers of the Roman Canon. He goes through them one after the other and then he shows the difference, he gives translations, very good ones. He gives, for example, precisely this famous.. you know, this famous una cum.., una cum of the sedevacantists. And you, do you say una cum? (laughter of the nuns of St-Michel-en-Brenne). You say una cum in the Canon of the Mass! Then we cannot pray with you; then you're not Catholic; you're not this; you're not that; you're not.. Ridiculous! ridiculous! because they claim that when we say una cum summo Pontifice, the Pope, isn't it, with the Pope, so therefore you embrace everything the Pope says. It's ridiculous! It's ridiculous! In fact, this is not the meaning of the prayer.

Te igitur clementissime Pater. This is the first prayer of the Canon. So here is how Dom Guillou translates it, a very accurate translation, indeed :

"We therefore pray Thee with profound humility, most merciful Father, and we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, to accept and to bless these gifts, these presents, these sacrifices, pure and without blemish, which we offer Thee firstly for Thy Holy Catholic Church. May it please Thee to give Her peace, to keep Her, to maintain Her in unity, and to govern Her throughout the earth, and with Her, Thy servant our Holy Father the Pope."

It is not said in this prayer that we embrace all ideas that the Pope may have or all the things he may do. With Her, your servant our Holy Father the Pope, our Bishop and all those who practice the Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox faith! So to the extent where, perhaps, unfortunately, the Popes would no longer have ..., nor the bishops..., would be deficient in the Orthodox, Catholic and Apostolic Faith, well, we are not in union with them, we are not with them, of course. We pray for the Pope and all those who practice the Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox faith!
[...]

Baylee · July 04, 2023, 07:12:21 AM

AC,

Here are a couple of writings by Bishop Sanborn on this topic (one was linked below the video):

https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/17/indefectibility-and-una-cum/
https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cum-mass/

awkward customer · July 04, 2023, 09:56:50 AM

Quote from: Baylee on July 04, 2023, 07:12:21 AMAC,

Here are a couple of writings by Bishop Sanborn on this topic (one was linked below the video):

https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/17/indefectibility-and-una-cum/
https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cum-mass/

Thanks. I'll have a look at these.

It's the question of the legitimacy of a Mass if it is not said in union with the 'competent authority', meaning the Pope, that interests me.

Baylee · July 04, 2023, 10:17:22 AM

Quote from: awkward customer on July 04, 2023, 09:56:50 AM
Quote from: Baylee on July 04, 2023, 07:12:21 AMAC,

Here are a couple of writings by Bishop Sanborn on this topic (one was linked below the video):

https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/17/indefectibility-and-una-cum/
https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cum-mass/

Thanks. I'll have a look at these.

It's the question of the legitimacy of a Mass if it is not said in union with the 'competent authority', meaning the Pope, that interests me.

I think what he means is it would be illicit to say mass in union with say Pope Michael (when he was alive). Masscould be valid and still illicit.

awkward customer · July 04, 2023, 11:04:27 AM

I found the following from your second link.

Quote...... In order that a Mass be a Catholic Mass, it is not sufficient that it be merely valid, but it must also be offered in union with and in submission and obedience to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Just as you cannot divorce Catholicism from the Catholic hierarchy, so you cannot divorce the Mass, the central act of worship, from the Catholic hierarchy.

This is the starting point, or one of them, of Bishop Sanborn's argument.

QuoteThe Greek schismatics (so called "Orthodox") have a liturgy which is entirely Catholic inasmuch as it is the ancient liturgy used before the break from Rome. But by the simple fact of leaving out the name of the pope, their Mass, although valid, is not Catholic and is sacrilegious. Why sacrilegious? Because it is to use a sacred thing, the Holy Eucharist, in an improper manner.

The Masses of the Orthodox are schismatic because they are not said in union with the Pope.

Then there's the matter of a Mass offered when a Pope has died and a new Pope has not yet been elected.

QuoteHow is a Mass Catholic, then, when there is a vacancy in the Roman See? In order that the Mass be Catholic in the Roman vacancy, it is necessary that no name of a pope be mentioned in the Canon for as long as the see is vacant. There is still a profession of communion, submission, and obedience to the Roman Pontiff inasmuch as the faithful are awaiting the election of a new pope, to whom they will be duly submitted

I suppose it's never occurred to me before - but during the period between two Popes, there is no Papal name in the Canon.

QuoteBergoglio is necessarily not the true Roman Pontiff. The reason is that he has promulgated to the Church heresies and condemned doctrines in his magisterium. The Church's gift of indefectibility, doctrine, worship, and discipline, makes it impossible that a true pope deceive the faithful by false doctrines and evil liturgy. Indefectibility pertains to faith, and consequently we must conclude, directly from the Faith, that it is impossible that Bergoglio be pope, and therefore necessary that his name not appear in the Canon. Only in this way would the Mass be a Catholic Mass. For to place the name of a false pope in the Canon makes the Mass schismatic.

Accordingly, the argument concludes that Masses said in union with a false Pope are as schismatic as Masses said that are not in union with a true Pope.

https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cum-mass/

Jean Carrier · July 04, 2023, 11:45:59 AM

It's a largely academic question for me, since the only valid masses anywhere near me are non-una cum or celebrated by the "Eastern Orthodox".

Baylee · July 04, 2023, 01:22:00 PM

Quote from: Robert on July 04, 2023, 11:45:59 AMIt's a largely academic question for me, since the only valid masses anywhere near me are non-una cum or celebrated by the "Eastern Orthodox".

I am in a similar situation.

Baylee · July 05, 2023, 06:16:42 AM

Quote from: awkward customer on July 04, 2023, 11:04:27 AMI suppose it's never occurred to me before - but during the period between two Popes, there is no Papal name in the Canon.

I am surprised that you hadn't come across that in your travels...at least in this sub-forum. Yes, that it is the reason why there is no name mentioned in the SV masses.

Greg · July 05, 2023, 06:42:45 AM

Sounds like horseshit to me.

God can only expect people to use the tools they have.

If there is no Pope, who gives a shit who it is said in union with or not?

Either it is a valid sacrament that confers graces or it is a protestant service and a nice sermon and the chance for a cup of tea with some other unvaccinated people with common sense.

But there's nothing I can do, because Lefebvre succeeded where Sanborn failed.

Kephapaulos · July 05, 2023, 10:21:28 PM

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2023/03/undeclared-heretics.html

King Wenceslas · July 05, 2023, 11:07:18 PM

Sanborn's Ordination ceremony for bishop:

Do you have an apostolic mandate?

Crickets.

diaduit · July 06, 2023, 01:29:26 AM

For me I imagine the Holy Ghost steps in as our hierarchy because our pope is not a proper pope and most certainly is a saboteur. We are not abandoned but we are going blind.

Bataar · July 06, 2023, 03:10:44 PM

Quote from: King Wenceslas on July 05, 2023, 11:07:18 PMSanborn's Ordination ceremony for bishop:

Do you have an apostolic mandate?

Crickets.

That law is irrelevant at this point because it would be damning to souls.

Greg · July 07, 2023, 03:49:01 AM

If SVs were the only true surviving Catholics and all other Traditionalists were acknowledging a false Pope and that made a difference in terms of sacramental validity or sanctifying grace or fruits then.

1. SVs should pull out ALL of the stops to expand around the world, give money very generously to their priests to build new chapels as millions of souls need saving. In 90% of Catholic countries they are completely non-existent. They are very small compared to the SSPX. Why have they not expanded?

They have literally failed in the core mission of saving as many souls as possible. They have their chapels and are pretty content to motor along.

2. God's providence should surely assist them in this regard. They after all are the only Catholic church left.

My conclusion therefore is that the SVs are just another clan in the Traditionalist disoriented mess.