Author Topic: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion  (Read 6710 times)

Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« on: February 09, 2022, 09:06:48 AM »
So, up until last week, I watched The Fatima Center on you tube. Previously, I had found Father Michael Rodriguez a fairly based priest. Almost 2 weeks ago, TFC posted a video from Fr. Rodriguez in which he poo-poo'ed all over the Divine Mercy devotion and St. Faustina. Citing it's "newness" and questioning it's authenticity. The video presented the priest's own personal opinion, however misguided and not church teaching. 

That was only half of it. The other half of it were the comments.

"Isn't St. Faustina a heretic?"
"St. Faustina's diary is heretical"
"St. Faustina was canonized by JPII, so she's not a real saint"
"Fr. Chris Alar supports the Medjugorje *hoax*, therefore everything he says is wrong"
"Fr. Chris Alar misguides people"
"
ETC....

I went back and forth with one woman, who blatantly accused Fr. Chris Alar (Of the Marians of Immaculate Conception) of something with no proof whatsoever, she just pulled it out of thin air. Calumny is a sin.
I said I'd pray for her, which I did. Her response was to tell me no, not necessary... It went on and on and on. So many supposed Catholics in the comments were making up fallacies out of nothing. I finally got so irritated I just ejected myself from arguing with people who were so pointedly lying, misleading, etc. The amount of sheer fallacies spewed out in the comments were surprising.

Additionally, my wife has felt led to put together a Divine Mercy prayer and discussion group here in our local diocese. They will meet every Tuesday during Lent at our local Knights of Columbus leading up to Divine Mercy Sunday. Each week will focus on a particular aspect of the devotion. This is to help educate and spread the Divine Mercy devotion.  Divine Mercy Sunday is a HUGE thing if you know what it really means for the soul! But even as a cradle Catholic, she had very little understanding of it up until recently. Again, going around to our 3 local churches, she encountered somewhat hostile pushback at one church amongst the office staff just trying to get it into the bulletin, as things that go in the bulletins have to be submitted about 4 weeks ahead. The other 2 churches were very receptive.

We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't. Divine Mercy Sunday is akin to being baptized all over again. This is enormous. I don't know if all of the hostility is due to cafeteria Catholics, poor communication from priests, etc....

I was really floored by it all. If the actual devotion doesn't move or speak to somebody, that's one thing. It's natural that different devotions call to different people. But to openly misrepresent, lie, bear false witness, etc.  it's really something to see, and not in a good way.

What say you?

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Offline james03

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2022, 09:16:01 AM »
I sent in a request to have this moved to "General Catholic Discussion".
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2022, 10:14:47 AM »
I have seen this sort of hostility too, usually from people who identify themselves as "traditional Catholics". 

I spent some months living in Vilnius in the early 90s and visited sites there associated with this devotion.  Although people tend to think of St. Faustina as Polish, Vilnius is now part of Lithuania and this is a popular devotion among Lithuanians.
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2022, 10:31:00 AM »
I've seen that some people tend to think that this "replaces" the Rosary, although I've not seen that promoted anywhere. No reason why one can't do both if they have the desire and time to do so. I do. Also the argument this is a new devotion means little to me. The Rosary and other devotions were "new" at one point in time. Also, the Divine Mercy chaplet is nearly 100 years old.

Also a Catholic is not necessarily required to believe private revelation. I do though in many many cases. A guy named Vince Sigala gave testimony that he was visited in his bedroom in the middle of the night by the guardian angel of the United States. The angel told him to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet every day in reparation for the sins committed by the United States, specifically for sins of the flesh, and for abortion. So I do it.
This testimony is written in Christine Watkins book, The Warning.

In fact, I have some prayer books from The Mantle of Mary Project for this.  Written by Rev. John Anthony Boughton and Bud Mcfarlane Jr. I'll be giving out a dozen copies to some folks over the next week or so to help spread the word. The book consists of an opening prayer, the Litany of the Most Precious Blood, Divine Mercy Chaplet, and a Mantle of Mary prayer.
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Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2022, 11:36:23 AM »
This happens here too.

Of course, practicing any given devotion is not a requirement, and we can hardly practice them all, but to openly reject one seems a bit inordinate at best.

However, those who are focused on the richness of the traditions of the Church might not pay much attention to more recently developed devotions and practices. There is value in having devotions, prayers, practices, and books that have been promoted for a long time and by diverse holy people.

Divine Mercy Sunday is akin to being baptized all over again. This is enormous.

Statements like this are what may give people some pause.
And he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17:1

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Matthew 7:15-20

But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers. But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:7-8

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to that doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions, Conflicts of men corrupted in mind, and who are destitute of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. But godliness with contentment is great gain.  For we brought nothing into this world: and certainly we can carry nothing out. But having food, and wherewith to be covered, with these we are content. For they that will become rich, fall into temptation, and into the snare of the devil, and into many unprofitable and hurtful desires, which drown men into destruction and perdition.  For the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows. 1 Timonthy 6:3-10
 
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2022, 12:12:59 PM »
This happens here too.

Of course, practicing any given devotion is not a requirement, and we can hardly practice them all, but to openly reject one seems a bit inordinate at best.

However, those who are focused on the richness of the traditions of the Church might not pay much attention to more recently developed devotions and practices. There is value in having devotions, prayers, practices, and books that have been promoted for a long time and by diverse holy people.

Divine Mercy Sunday is akin to being baptized all over again. This is enormous.

Statements like this are what may give people some pause.

Sure thing, I understand that. The Feast of Mercy does have certain conditions that have to be met, like confession and Holy Communion. One of the comments on the video really stood out as a postive. The person basically stated that they received a medical miracle on DMS. That made me happy.
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Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2022, 12:31:12 PM »
Sure thing, I understand that. The Feast of Mercy does have certain conditions that have to be met, like confession and Holy Communion. One of the comments on the video really stood out as a postive. The person basically stated that they received a medical miracle on DMS. That made me happy.

But it is important to have a very solid understanding. The doctrines of the Church on certain matters are very clear and anything which appears to contradict them can cause the hostility you see, even if the statements were made in ignorance or were not meant as they were stated (or even if one did happen to have a defective understanding of the subject, which is quite possible).

The original diary had some issues like this.

Anything which appears to replace or otherwise contradict a sacrament is very suspicious:

For example, Baptism can be only received once:

Quote from: Catechism of Pius X
The Character Impressed by some of the Sacraments

31 Q. What sacraments can be received only once?
A. The sacraments that can be received only once are three: Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders.

32 Q. Why can the three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders be received only once?
A. The three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders can be received only once, because each of them imprints a special character on the soul.

33 Q. What is the character that each of the three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders imprints on the soul?
A. The character that each of the three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders imprints on the soul is a spiritual mark that is never effaced.

34 Q. What is the purpose of the character that these three sacraments impress on the soul?
A. The character that these three sacraments imprint on the soul, serves to mark us as members of Jesus Christ at Baptism, as His soldiers at Confirmation, and as His ministers at Holy Orders.

And the Sacrament of Penance is:

Quote from: Catechism of Pius X
The Sacrament of Penance

Penance in General

1 Q. What is the sacrament of Penance?
A. The sacrament of Penance, also called Confession, is a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ to remit the sins committed after Baptism.

20 Q. Is the sacrament of Penance necessary to all for salvation?
A. The sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to all who have committed a mortal sin after Baptism.

Any statements which are promoting a new form of devotion with new devotional items and sacramentals which appear to "repeat" Baptism (rather than renew Baptismal vows) or to replace Penance would be highly suspect.

If nothing else, this is the basis for the original opposition to this devotion as promoted.

One must be very careful in one's promotion.

See what has happened here: I have previously written against the opposition to the devotion in question, and now I'm reaffirming Church teachings on the sacraments because of how this same devotion was promoted.
And he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17:1

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Matthew 7:15-20

But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers. But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:7-8

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to that doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions, Conflicts of men corrupted in mind, and who are destitute of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. But godliness with contentment is great gain.  For we brought nothing into this world: and certainly we can carry nothing out. But having food, and wherewith to be covered, with these we are content. For they that will become rich, fall into temptation, and into the snare of the devil, and into many unprofitable and hurtful desires, which drown men into destruction and perdition.  For the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows. 1 Timonthy 6:3-10
 
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2022, 12:55:28 PM »
Just to be clear... People were hostile to the devotion right from the start in the YT comments. That was the entire basis of the video itself. Nobody, including myself made any allusions to baptism vs Divine Mercy Sunday in the comment section. I simply used that in this thread trying to compare the importance of it. At least in my own understanding, I feel that Divine Mercy Sunday is a huge grace. I never made that comparison in the you tube comments.

YT commenters were quick to toss out falsehoods and mischaracterizations without any proof at all concerning St. Faustina, Pope JPII, etc.

Do all you possibly can for this work of My mercy. I desire that My mercy be worshiped and I am giving mankind the last hope of salvation; that is, recourse to My mercy. My Heart rejoices in this feast. (Diary of St. Faustina, 998)

The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy. (699)

The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment. On that day are opened all the divine floodgates through which graces flow. (699)

By means of this image I shall grant many graces to souls; so let every soul have access to it. (570)


I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I simply don't understand where the hostility towards the devotion or St. Faustina herself comes from. It didn't come from a comment I made. By the time I had watched it, the comments were full of anti DV stuff. The video was very alien to anything The Fatima Center usually posts.
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2022, 12:57:34 PM »
This happens here too.

Of course, practicing any given devotion is not a requirement, and we can hardly practice them all, but to openly reject one seems a bit inordinate at best.

However, those who are focused on the richness of the traditions of the Church might not pay much attention to more recently developed devotions and practices. There is value in having devotions, prayers, practices, and books that have been promoted for a long time and by diverse holy people.

Divine Mercy Sunday is akin to being baptized all over again. This is enormous.

Statements like this are what may give people some pause.

I didn't make that statement in the comments on you tube. I simply used this comparison here to express my own enthusiasm.
"The truth is like a lion. You don't have to defend it. Let it loose, it will defend itself."
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Offline trentcath

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2022, 01:03:15 PM »


We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't.

Although someone I once said this to was scandalized, blocked me on every form of communication, and publicly denounced me... there are many good arguments to be made against the infallibility of post V2 saints (that is saints subject to canonization under the reformed procedure). The SSPX has noted the issue many times, and the broad church book on the subject  here http://aroucapress.com/are-canonizations-infallible also sets out different points of view. I think it is very difficult for a traditional catholic, without engaging in denial or cognitive dissoance, to accept Pope Paul VI for example as a saint. The same can be said of John XXIII, given his fundemental imprudence in holding VII which destroyed the church, and even JPII who engaged in very problematic behaviour regarding allowing false religions to hold their ceremonies in the vatican, being blessed by pagan priests, and many dodgy theological comments etc... (Assisi 1 and 2) One can also think of Mother Theresa who I recently learnt allegedly made many problematic statements equating Catholicism with false religions, and Oscar Romero who dallied with liberation theology which is full of theological flaws, if not outright heretical. The idea that he was martyred for the faith, as opposed to because he preached the social justice gospel (which has nothing to do with Catholicism) is laughable.  There are many other examples of patently unsuitable people being elevated to the altars.

As for the Divine Mercy devotion itself, I like it and didn't see any theological issues with it but I can see why people might have issues with it.
 
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2022, 01:20:15 PM »


We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't.

Although someone I once said this to was scandalized, blocked me on every form of communication, and publicly denounced me... there are many good arguments to be made against the infallibility of post V2 saints (that is saints subject to canonization under the reformed procedure). The SSPX has noted the issue many times, and the broad church book on the subject  here http://aroucapress.com/are-canonizations-infallible also sets out different points of view. I think it is very difficult for a traditional catholic, without engaging in denial or cognitive dissoance, to accept Pope Paul VI for example as a saint. The same can be said of John XXIII, given his fundemental imprudence in holding VII which destroyed the church, and even JPII who engaged in very problematic behaviour regarding allowing false religions to hold their ceremonies in the vatican, being blessed by pagan priests, and many dodgy theological comments etc... (Assisi 1 and 2) One can also think of Mother Theresa who I recently learnt allegedly made many problematic statements equating Catholicism with false religions, and Oscar Romero who dallied with liberation theology which is full of theological flaws, if not outright heretical. The idea that he was martyred for the faith, as opposed to because he preached the social justice gospel (which has nothing to do with Catholicism) is laughable.  There are many other examples of patently unsuitable people being elevated to the altars.

As for the Divine Mercy devotion itself, I like it and didn't see any theological issues with it but I can see why people might have issues with it.

Understood.  From this perspective, I can see how people might think this.
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Offline trentcath

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2022, 01:23:39 PM »


We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't.

Although someone I once said this to was scandalized, blocked me on every form of communication, and publicly denounced me... there are many good arguments to be made against the infallibility of post V2 saints (that is saints subject to canonization under the reformed procedure). The SSPX has noted the issue many times, and the broad church book on the subject  here http://aroucapress.com/are-canonizations-infallible also sets out different points of view. I think it is very difficult for a traditional catholic, without engaging in denial or cognitive dissoance, to accept Pope Paul VI for example as a saint. The same can be said of John XXIII, given his fundemental imprudence in holding VII which destroyed the church, and even JPII who engaged in very problematic behaviour regarding allowing false religions to hold their ceremonies in the vatican, being blessed by pagan priests, and many dodgy theological comments etc... (Assisi 1 and 2) One can also think of Mother Theresa who I recently learnt allegedly made many problematic statements equating Catholicism with false religions, and Oscar Romero who dallied with liberation theology which is full of theological flaws, if not outright heretical. The idea that he was martyred for the faith, as opposed to because he preached the social justice gospel (which has nothing to do with Catholicism) is laughable.  There are many other examples of patently unsuitable people being elevated to the altars.

As for the Divine Mercy devotion itself, I like it and didn't see any theological issues with it but I can see why people might have issues with it.

Understood.  From this perspective, I can see how people might think this.

People will probably have X problem with the devotion, I've heard of several which I think are to do with unfamiliarity with mysticism rather than inherent flaws (Faustina appears to make some exaggerated claims in several places), and then say "well post V2 saints might not be actual saints so who cares if she is allegedly a saint". It's a terrible situation to be in as it can lead to people trashing actual saints in order to avoid venerating fake saints, alas the Church today is a bit of a mess  :-[ :pray2:
 
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Offline Wyo Wolverine

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2022, 01:32:25 PM »


We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't.

Although someone I once said this to was scandalized, blocked me on every form of communication, and publicly denounced me... there are many good arguments to be made against the infallibility of post V2 saints (that is saints subject to canonization under the reformed procedure). The SSPX has noted the issue many times, and the broad church book on the subject  here http://aroucapress.com/are-canonizations-infallible also sets out different points of view. I think it is very difficult for a traditional catholic, without engaging in denial or cognitive dissoance, to accept Pope Paul VI for example as a saint. The same can be said of John XXIII, given his fundemental imprudence in holding VII which destroyed the church, and even JPII who engaged in very problematic behaviour regarding allowing false religions to hold their ceremonies in the vatican, being blessed by pagan priests, and many dodgy theological comments etc... (Assisi 1 and 2) One can also think of Mother Theresa who I recently learnt allegedly made many problematic statements equating Catholicism with false religions, and Oscar Romero who dallied with liberation theology which is full of theological flaws, if not outright heretical. The idea that he was martyred for the faith, as opposed to because he preached the social justice gospel (which has nothing to do with Catholicism) is laughable.  There are many other examples of patently unsuitable people being elevated to the altars.

As for the Divine Mercy devotion itself, I like it and didn't see any theological issues with it but I can see why people might have issues with it.

Understood.  From this perspective, I can see how people might think this.

People will probably have X problem with the devotion, I've heard of several which I think are to do with unfamiliarity with mysticism rather than inherent flaws (Faustina appears to make some exaggerated claims in several places), and then say "well post V2 saints might not be actual saints so who cares if she is allegedly a saint". It's a terrible situation to be in as it can lead to people trashing actual saints in order to avoid venerating fake saints, alas the Church today is a bit of a mess  :-[ :pray2:

This I understand, and do agree with.
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Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2022, 02:15:14 PM »
So, up until last week, I watched The Fatima Center on you tube. Previously, I had found Father Michael Rodriguez a fairly based priest. Almost 2 weeks ago, TFC posted a video from Fr. Rodriguez in which he poo-poo'ed all over the Divine Mercy devotion and St. Faustina. Citing it's "newness" and questioning it's authenticity. The video presented the priest's own personal opinion, however misguided and not church teaching. 

That was only half of it. The other half of it were the comments.

"Isn't St. Faustina a heretic?"
"St. Faustina's diary is heretical"
"St. Faustina was canonized by JPII, so she's not a real saint"
"Fr. Chris Alar supports the Medjugorje *hoax*, therefore everything he says is wrong"
"Fr. Chris Alar misguides people"
"
ETC....

I went back and forth with one woman, who blatantly accused Fr. Chris Alar (Of the Marians of Immaculate Conception) of something with no proof whatsoever, she just pulled it out of thin air. Calumny is a sin.
I said I'd pray for her, which I did. Her response was to tell me no, not necessary... It went on and on and on. So many supposed Catholics in the comments were making up fallacies out of nothing. I finally got so irritated I just ejected myself from arguing with people who were so pointedly lying, misleading, etc. The amount of sheer fallacies spewed out in the comments were surprising.

Additionally, my wife has felt led to put together a Divine Mercy prayer and discussion group here in our local diocese. They will meet every Tuesday during Lent at our local Knights of Columbus leading up to Divine Mercy Sunday. Each week will focus on a particular aspect of the devotion. This is to help educate and spread the Divine Mercy devotion.  Divine Mercy Sunday is a HUGE thing if you know what it really means for the soul! But even as a cradle Catholic, she had very little understanding of it up until recently. Again, going around to our 3 local churches, she encountered somewhat hostile pushback at one church amongst the office staff just trying to get it into the bulletin, as things that go in the bulletins have to be submitted about 4 weeks ahead. The other 2 churches were very receptive.

We as lay Catholics don't get to pick and choose which saints we think are *real* saints and which aren't. Divine Mercy Sunday is akin to being baptized all over again. This is enormous. I don't know if all of the hostility is due to cafeteria Catholics, poor communication from priests, etc....

I was really floored by it all. If the actual devotion doesn't move or speak to somebody, that's one thing. It's natural that different devotions call to different people. But to openly misrepresent, lie, bear false witness, etc.  it's really something to see, and not in a good way.

What say you?

My wife wrote a series on this years ago:
http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/spirituality/82-spirtuality/222-defense-of-divine-mercy.html
http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/spirituality/82-spirtuality/242-defense-of-the-divine-mercy-devotion-part-2.html
http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/spirituality/82-spirtuality/467-defense-of-the-divine-mercy-devotion-part-3.html

In the end of the day people do get to pick what they believe and what they don't believe.  At judgement day it is determined whether we believed and acted rightly by God.  If people don't find the Divine Mercy Devotion in its: Apparitions, Chaplet, Image believable or from God then you can share with them why you find it believable, or how it benefits you. 


 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 02:17:16 PM by nmoerbeek »
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Open hostility to the Divine Mercy devotion
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2022, 02:22:38 PM »
I've an early Divine Mercy card from 1957, mostly a prayer for the beatification of Sr Faustina. The usual prayers draw on a mix of Greek and earlier Latin devotionals. I see no harm, but some think there are problems with the locutions.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 02:37:51 PM by Prayerful »
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
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