Is it worth engaging?

[Jayne]

Tribalism is something that both sides are equally guilty of.

You can't be "guilty" of (fake word) "tribalism". There is not only nothing wrong with having strong loyalty to your group and letting that guide your behavior and world-view, it's a good thing that is both an essential virtue we should foster and a necessity of human life.

Forming groups and feeling loyal to one's group are normal human behaviours.  Whether they are positive or negative depends on the circumstances.  When loyalty to one's group makes one unable to apply reason and critical thinking, it is a bad thing.

[queen.saints]

There is not only nothing wrong with having strong loyalty to your group and letting that guide your behavior and world-view, it's a good thing that is both an essential virtue we should foster and a necessity of human life.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

On the second place, the principles of our being and government are our parents and our country, that have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to piety, in the second place, to give worship to one's parents and one's country.

St. Thomas Aquinas on the virtue of Piety

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3101.htm

[diaduit]

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/vaccinationstatusreports/

Here is the link again but if it does not open properly,  hpsc.ie and scroll down to vaccinations status reports.

These are full figures for all vaccinated people over 16 and our population is nearly 5 million.
It doesnt matter if it's not your country, it's a credible unbiased data collection that is clear,  vaccinated persons die at a far higher rate and refutes the idea that the vaccines are saving people or saving hospitals from being over stretched  and also refutes the idea that the unvaccinated die in droves from covid
This is also played out in official Scottish and UK figures too.

You know our population is no different any of the western countries so I dont know why you dont think the figures would be of interest.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to piety, in the second place, to give worship to one's parents and one's country.

While I would love to get into it, I'm not sure that such a discussion would be productive.

The "tribalism" here are not piety due to government and other authorities, but informal political groups (primarily online, or even specific to this forum).

There is no piety in joining a group of conspiracy theorists and being loyal to their ideology at the expense of truth and charity.

[diaduit]

You're ignoring the truth wilfully.

[Jayne]

You're ignoring the truth wilfully.

It has been 3 minutes since you posted the link.  Have you considered the possibility that he hasn't had time to answer yet?

[queen.saints]

Tribalism is something that both sides are equally guilty of.

You can't be "guilty" of (fake word) "tribalism". There is not only nothing wrong with having strong loyalty to your group and letting that guide your behavior and world-view, it's a good thing that is both an essential virtue we should foster and a necessity of human life.

Forming groups and feeling loyal to one's group are normal human behaviours.  Whether they are positive or negative depends on the circumstances.  When loyalty to one's group makes one unable to apply reason and critical thinking, it is a bad thing.

Loyalty to, even worship of, our kinsmen and our country is only a bad thing when we are more loyal to them than God Himself. If we are putting God first, and secondly our people and country, then our life is in proper order and our reason will follow into proper order as well.

It is those who put their own people and country in any place but second only to God whose reason will necessarily be disordered.


" Now no virtue is opposed to another virtue, since according to the Philosopher, in his book on the Categories (Cap. De oppos.), "good is not opposed to good...

the act of every virtue is limited by the circumstances due thereto, and if it overstep them it will be an act no longer of virtue but of vice. Hence it belongs to piety to pay duty and homage to one's parents according to the due mode. But it is not the due mode that man should tend to worship his father rather than God, but, as Ambrose says on Luke 12:52, "the piety of divine religion takes precedence of the claims of kindred."

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3101.htm

[diaduit]

While I would love to get into it, I'm not sure that such a discussion would be productive.

The "tribalism" here are not piety due to government and other authorities, but informal political groups (primarily online, or even specific to this forum).

There is no piety in joining a group of conspiracy theorists and being loyal to their ideology at the expense of truth and charity.

You're ignoring the truth wilfully.

I wrote this in response to quoted text.

[TerrorDæmonum]

These are full figures for all vaccinated people over 16 and our population is nearly 5 million.

Wow. There are over twice as many Irish-Catholic people in the USA than there are Irish people in Ireland.

There are fewer people in Ireland by a few million than people living in New York City.

You know our population is no different any of the western countries so I dont know why you dont think the figures would be of interest.

In my city, in my zip code, there are huge demographic differences which make the discussion very different for different people. I think comparing national statistics might not be as relevant as you think.

Also, vaccination policies are based on populations, not individuals.

Also:

and also refutes the idea that the unvaccinated die in droves from covid

Who presented that idea? When pointing out that hospitalizations are uneven between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, I am careful to point out that the hospitalizations are a tiny part of the total infections on their own.

It could be that it is just chance that people who need hospitalization are what they are given how much of a minority they are among total infections.

Also, the risk of overrunning hospitals depends on the local conditions. Having a small population makes things much easier.

[TerrorDæmonum]

I wrote this in response to quoted text.

I was responding to the previous comment which was the last one posted while I was writing. It was not a response to you, but for the tribalism and piety post.

I'll add the context to the post.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Loyalty to, even worship of, our kinsmen and our country is only a bad thing when we are more loyal to them than God Himself. If we are putting God first, and secondly our people and country, then our life is in proper order and our reason will follow into proper order as well.

I think the context of this discussion was more for groupthink and smaller social groups surrounding specific ideologies.

I'm not sure that your wording here is the best either.

In short, for what are essentially political parties and movements, I do not think piety is a factor.

[Melkor]

There is not only nothing wrong with having strong loyalty to your group and letting that guide your behavior and world-view, it's a good thing that is both an essential virtue we should foster and a necessity of human life.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Gasps in disbelief. Is it possible that the Bible is telling us to hate our parents? It's called context. Posting that quote is actually retarded. What are you trying to prove? That tribalism in any form is bad and against Catholicism? Tell that to the monks in their monasteries.

[queen.saints]

Loyalty to, even worship of, our kinsmen and our country is only a bad thing when we are more loyal to them than God Himself. If we are putting God first, and secondly our people and country, then our life is in proper order and our reason will follow into proper order as well.

I think the context of this discussion was more for groupthink and smaller social groups surrounding specific ideologies.

I'm not sure that your wording here is the best either.

In short, what are essential political parties and movements, I do not think piety is a factor.

That is not how functional humanity works. Despite the left's efforts, most good people are still fundamentally part of a group based on family and nationality and it decides their "politics". In Ireland, for instance, where diaduit lives, the two main political parties are nearly indistinguishable to an outsider and you need to understand the racial basis of each group to understand the politics.

This is how things should be, so long as God is always first, and derogatory words like "tribalism" are working to undermine them.

[Jayne]

This is how things should be, so long as God is always first, and derogatory words like "tribalism" are working to undermine them.

We can call it groupthink, if you like that better. 

The conspiracy theories being put forth here do not come from putting God first.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Yourself and others might work this way, but that is not how functional humanity works. Despite the left?s efforts, most good people are still fundamentally part of a group based on family and nationality and it decides their ?politics?.

Then there is no point in having discussions across diverse geographic areas then. My political situation is quite different from hers.

Speaking of which, I am getting Aristotle's The Politics tomorrow assuming delivery is not impeded by ice.

In Ireland, for instance, where diaduit lives, the two main political parties are nearly indistinguishable to an outsider and you need to understand the racial basis of each group to understand the politics.

I'm not really interested in local politics of other localities.  I am only even vaguely aware of Canada's politics (some guy named "Trudeau" is the prime minister and they have a monarch).

I am not aligned or supportive of any American political party either, although, I know far more about them.

This is how things should be, so long as God is always first, and derogatory words like ?tribalism? are working to undermine them.

The kingdom of God is not of this world, and we should be careful in what attachments we form. That is all: some attachments displayed on this forum are seemingly far too strong, at the expense of truth and charity.