"Trad lifestyle" and hypocrisy

[Quo Vadis]

Sorry this takes a coupla steps: please select the tab for "Friday", then Father Cyprian <Play>

http://www.fatimayourlastchance.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=8

I find this monk's talk very refreshing for this melancholy man.  He lives the traditional Benedictine lifestyle in my neck of the woods.  While watching this, I began to consider that the monasteries are situated to rebuild Catholic civilization, when it becomes necessary (any thoughts on this).   He's addressing my favorite topic - Fatima - so a bit off topic.

[OCLittleFlower]

The fact is that in all we do, wherever we are, and whatever state of life God chooses for us, there will be a struggle, temptations, etc.

Before recently, I somehow thought that the religious life was extremely easy. Since monks, for example, don't have to worry about paying bills, taking care of family members, working, and so on, I thought that the religious was life was easy. You just prayed, lived in peace, and were away from the world.

I could not have been further from the truth. The spiritual life is extremely difficult, and the most difficult life. Climbing the mountain to spiritual perfection is no easy task.

No matter what we do, if we dig deep enough, it gets hard.  Sure, it isn't always so difficult to muddle through anything in life, but once you take things to the next level, it gets harder.

[Magnificat]

All the time, we as trads hear (whether rightly or wrongly) that trads need to do "old-fashioned" jobs and live "old-fashioned" ways.  We're told to 'return to the land', to be farmers, woodworkers, glass-blowers, bookbinders.  That a trade is the best route for a good trad man to take.

Why? Is Traditional Catholicism just nostalgia for a past age? Or is it about eternal Truth that transcends culture?

This general push does have to do with eternal Truth though. Indirectly, which is why it isn't a requirement, but the connection is there.

I don't know if there are many farmers here but there is a closeness to God when cultivating the land that cannot be found pushing paper. It is very spiritually therapeutic. It's just you, often your family, God and the world He created. You get to know Him through His handiwork and working with your hands, creating, allows you to take part in this attribute of His in a special way.

KK, it's not about what "they" like or dislike upon a whim, it's based in the study of human nature and what is the most fulfilling for mankind.

I think when men are pointed toward trades, it's nothing against intellectual pursuits -- TRUE intellectual pursuits -- it's mainly against jobs that have no purpose and no foothold in reality. Jobs that are mired in the fake cubical world that keeps people busy without actually developing them in any profound way. It's just a lot of busy-ness with no concrete end product for a man to take pride in. This doesn't mean it's sinful to be a paper pusher or that they cannot be saints, but there is a simplicity and a REALness to the "old fashioned" jobs that is less of an obstruction. City life, paper pushing or otherwise contributing to the capitalist game is a man made world, it is much less satisfying. Kind of like the difference between an animal in a zoo vs an animal in the wild. The one is truly what God created him to be while the other is living a fabricated life and could never truly provide for himself or his family if that fabric came apart. While making claims to supreme independence he's actually as dependent as a baby. 

Really, it's based on the saying that grace build on nature. The more a man's nature is developed, the more fertile the ground for grace to build. Pushing paper in a cubicle making millions for some corporation while barely making ends meet at home or seeing the light of day, having little to no fatherly/husband-ly presence at home, doesn't usually lend itself well to the development of a man's nature. By extension it's destructive to the family and society. Even the modern world admits this is unhealthy although many of those studies stop only at the physical effects and don't bother with the spiritual.

The examples KK used above are just a few among many examples of trades and work that lend themselves moreso. Working hard to develop and perfect a craft with real tangible results brings about a sense of fulfillment, a pride in one's work, an enjoyment that is whole. Work is hard and it is supposed to be "by the sweat of your brow" but I don't think it is supposed to be suicidal and manic depressive. If a man is developing his talents there is always something of salvation that brings peace along with the hardship.

A lot of people have no choice, we live in the world we live in. But it's still important to understand the principle behind the "push" so that changes for the better can be made, even if they are small. Perhaps a paper pusher could escape typical traps if he is aware that his job isn't ideal for his overall spiritual development and doesn't take it personally.

One of the people who talks about this a lot is Bishop Williamson. I have no doubt that as a seminary rector for so many years, he could tell a lot of stories to back up the theory. People are so out of touch they had to create a pre seminary level basically to make the men human first before they could continue on to seminary studies. ABL also encouraged people to return to the land although I couldn't tell you where he says it or exactly what he says.

There is something to it. If one can't take it literally they can at least draw out the principle and apply it as well as they can in their situation. 

[LouisIX]

In the world, not of it.

Avoid sin and the occasions of sin.

Put the talents God has given us (which He didn't have to) to good use.

In a world filled with sin, doing these things is old-fashioned.


Tradtionalism isn't about being old, or doing things in an old-fashioned way merely because they are old-fashioned.  It's about believing, praying, and living as Catholics always have.  Air conditioning is not a short skirt, nor a mother working outside the home when she doesn't need to, nor a man who objectifies women or cowers in the face of danger.  There is nothing wrong with a luxury so long as it is not inherently sinful and so long as we do penance and mortification in our lives.

[Mithrandylan]

In the world, not of it.

Avoid sin and the occasions of sin.

Put the talents God has given us (which He didn't have to) to good use.

In a world filled with sin, doing these things is old-fashioned.


Tradtionalism isn't about being old, or doing things in an old-fashioned way merely because they are old-fashioned.  It's about believing, praying, and living as Catholics always have.  Air conditioning is not a short skirt, nor a mother working outside the home when she doesn't need to, nor a man who objectifies women or cowers in the face of danger.  There is nothing wrong with a luxury so long as it is not inherently sinful and so long as we do penance and mortification in our lives.

Yes, and something that some Catholics ought to keep in mind is that trads do not keep practice of the traditional faith because it's traditional, but because it's right.  Now, there *is* merit in a tradition for the sake of itself (Michael Davies actually touches on this in Cranmer's Godly Order-- I'm not at home but I'll see if I can pull out the relevant passage and post it later) but that argument is not the strongsuit of tradition.  Not only should all Catholics keep this in mind, but trads especially owe it to themselves, their fellow Christians and the faith itself to be well versed to defend traditions based on what they are, besides being traditions.

Apply the same principle to traditional jobs and work.  IF being a farmer is better than, say, being a computer engineer (the answer will vary and is very subjective to the person [and the state that person's in] it's applied to) then one should be a farmer.  If living away from everyone is better than living in a big city, then a person should live away from everyone.  That's really the discussion to have.

One problem with living off the land is access to the sacraments.  It's hardly mutually exclusive, and there are chapels in "rural" areas but moving to the middle of nowhere to escape sin is no good if one is also "escaping" the sacraments.  We can't let our faith drive us to a position where we're faced with becoming Davidians.

[Ancilla Domini]

This general push does have to do with eternal Truth though. Indirectly, which is why it isn't a requirement, but the connection is there.

I don't know if there are many farmers here but there is a closeness to God when cultivating the land that cannot be found pushing paper. It is very spiritually therapeutic. It's just you, often your family, God and the world He created. You get to know Him through His handiwork and working with your hands, creating, allows you to take part in this attribute of His in a special way.

KK, it's not about what "they" like or dislike upon a whim, it's based in the study of human nature and what is the most fulfilling for mankind.

I think when men are pointed toward trades, it's nothing against intellectual pursuits -- TRUE intellectual pursuits -- it's mainly against jobs that have no purpose and no foothold in reality. Jobs that are mired in the fake cubical world that keeps people busy without actually developing them in any profound way. It's just a lot of busy-ness with no concrete end product for a man to take pride in. This doesn't mean it's sinful to be a paper pusher or that they cannot be saints, but there is a simplicity and a REALness to the "old fashioned" jobs that is less of an obstruction. City life, paper pushing or otherwise contributing to the capitalist game is a man made world, it is much less satisfying. Kind of like the difference between an animal in a zoo vs an animal in the wild. The one is truly what God created him to be while the other is living a fabricated life and could never truly provide for himself or his family if that fabric came apart. While making claims to supreme independence he's actually as dependent as a baby. 

Really, it's based on the saying that grace build on nature. The more a man's nature is developed, the more fertile the ground for grace to build. Pushing paper in a cubicle making millions for some corporation while barely making ends meet at home or seeing the light of day, having little to no fatherly/husband-ly presence at home, doesn't usually lend itself well to the development of a man's nature. By extension it's destructive to the family and society. Even the modern world admits this is unhealthy although many of those studies stop only at the physical effects and don't bother with the spiritual.

The examples KK used above are just a few among many examples of trades and work that lend themselves moreso. Working hard to develop and perfect a craft with real tangible results brings about a sense of fulfillment, a pride in one's work, an enjoyment that is whole. Work is hard and it is supposed to be "by the sweat of your brow" but I don't think it is supposed to be suicidal and manic depressive. If a man is developing his talents there is always something of salvation that brings peace along with the hardship.

A lot of people have no choice, we live in the world we live in. But it's still important to understand the principle behind the "push" so that changes for the better can be made, even if they are small. Perhaps a paper pusher could escape typical traps if he is aware that his job isn't ideal for his overall spiritual development and doesn't take it personally.

One of the people who talks about this a lot is Bishop Williamson. I have no doubt that as a seminary rector for so many years, he could tell a lot of stories to back up the theory. People are so out of touch they had to create a pre seminary level basically to make the men human first before they could continue on to seminary studies. ABL also encouraged people to return to the land although I couldn't tell you where he says it or exactly what he says.

There is something to it. If one can't take it literally they can at least draw out the principle and apply it as well as they can in their situation.

This is a caricature that bears very little ressemblance to reality. Farming is neither as idyllic nor corporate culture as empty as you seem to imagine. I'm guessing that you, and Bishop Williamson, have little actual experience of either.

[Magnificat]

I'm guessing that you, ... have little actual experience of either.

Guess again. 

As I mentioned, farming is only one example among many trades and jobs that are fulfilling to human nature. It seems like you skimmed over the post and decided you wanted to be offended. If there's something specific that you disagree with or that isn't clear I'd be happy to explain what I meant, otherwise, I'm not sure the attitude is necessary.

[Kaesekopf]

As a note/clarifier, I am not talking about avoiding sinful occasions and whatnot.  It is evident that air conditioning and indoor plumbing is not a sinful thing. 

My concern is more of what Magnificat is getting at (thank you!). 

Is it more "right" or "proper" for trads to seek a lifestyle more "in tune" with nature?  Living off the land, farming, etc.  If that is the case, then, wouldn't it be more "proper" for trads to eschew modern "conveniences" like air conditioning, ice boxes, and modern transportation?  As was mentioned on another topic (but not particularly concerning my questions), man wasn't "made" to naturally exceed certain speed limits.  Man wasn't made to be sheltered from oppressive heat or frigid cold.  Man wasn't made to be out of tune with the seasons and his natural surroundings. 

So, with those things in mind, what do you think? 

On a superficial level, I find it interesting that certain modern things seem to be played down (city life, office work, etc), yet some of the fruits of modern things are ignored and taken for granted.

[CoolCat]

As a note/clarifier, I am not talking about avoiding sinful occasions and whatnot.  It is evident that air conditioning and indoor plumbing is not a sinful thing. 

My concern is more of what Magnificat is getting at (thank you!). 

Is it more "right" or "proper" for trads to seek a lifestyle more "in tune" with nature?  Living off the land, farming, etc.  If that is the case, then, wouldn't it be more "proper" for trads to eschew modern "conveniences" like air conditioning, ice boxes, and modern transportation?  As was mentioned on another topic (but not particularly concerning my questions), man wasn't "made" to naturally exceed certain speed limits.  Man wasn't made to be sheltered from oppressive heat or frigid cold. 
....
So, with those things in mind, what do you think? 

Man is gifted by the grace of God. We were given a brain. An organ that can be used among other things, to build, invent and discover marvelous things. Such as electricity, AC units, swords, PC's, wind mills, tractors, fuels, etc. 

And above all, common sense.

[Bonaventure]

Well KK, I think we have to avoided tendencies to romanticize anything. The idea of owning a nice farm out in Idaho, with a local chapel, star gazing at night, etc. seems very ideal. We can get out of our offices, our cities, etc.

The reality is that we have to face each day head on. We are where we are, when we are for a specific reason.

I think we have to live as good Catholic wherever God deigns to place us. If we are in the city, there are more occasions of sin and evil, but that's for a reason.

[Kaesekopf]

Well KK, I think we have to avoided tendencies to romanticize anything. The idea of owning a nice farm out in Idaho, with a local chapel, star gazing at night, etc. seems very ideal. We can get out of our offices, our cities, etc.

The reality is that we have to face each day head on. We are where we are, when we are for a specific reason.

I think we have to live as good Catholic wherever God deigns to place us. If we are in the city, there are more occasions of sin and evil, but that's for a reason.

But then what do we do when our traditionalist priests and bishops tell us to flee the cities, buy a farm, and raise some chickens?

[Ancilla Domini]

I'm guessing that you, ... have little actual experience of either.

Guess again. 

As I mentioned, farming is only one example among many trades and jobs that are fulfilling to human nature. It seems like you skimmed over the post and decided you wanted to be offended. If there's something specific that you disagree with or that isn't clear I'd be happy to explain what I meant, otherwise, I'm not sure the attitude is necessary.

I'm not offended. As I said, your descriptions both of farming and of the corporate world simply stike me as highly romantic. That is based on my own experience of both, which granted may be different from yours. But then, I'm not claiming that one is more consistent with Catholicism than the other.

[Magnificat]

I wrote this not long ago, I've been thinking about the same things... just copy/pasting to save typing

In the traditional Catholic realm we often meet with a negative view of technology and modern advances but I have to confess, I really like a lot of it! Being of a rather melancholic temperament I have gone through the "oh I long for simpler days!" phase but when I really think about it, I kinda like having indoor plumbing, telephones, vehicles, internet.

Not to mention, I'm very grateful for medical advances. If we lived just 100 years ago, my family would have died very young. Me, my husband and kids as well as a few siblings. Possibly my mother and definitely myself and one sister would have died in childbirth in pioneer times. It's pretty crazy to think about.

It's led me to contemplate two things, that

1) technology and most modern advances, those that are intrinsically neutral in morality, are all part of God's command to have dominion over the earth, and

2) they are very Providential for our times

When you think about having dominion over the earth, take the weather for example. The severe weather forecasting we can do is pretty amazing. Granted it's often wrong, the weather can still surprise us, but think about things like Hurricane Sandy. Had there been no warning system in place the devastation of human life would have been massive. These things are bad enough as is, imagine if we never had any clue of what was coming our way.

And when you think of Providence, how many of us would have no knowledge of what our Faith consists of without the internet? How many of us would be cut off form the sacraments without vehicles? The social model of belonging to a small parish and being born, living, and dying there without much knowledge of the rest of the world would have worked at a time when most priests and people knew their Faith, lived it and passed it on, at least in the basics. But with the massive loss of Faith now, even on the part of the clergy, it's a very DIY position we're in. WE individually have to find and read the works of the Church Fathers, the past Popes, the saints. Rarely is life and obedience so simple that we can just take the word of any priest or confessor, we have to dig deep and discern if they are correct or not. Very few of us would have this ability without the internet. When I think of where my Faith (and the Faiths of so many others with the same story) would be under the old social model, I am rather amazed by the Providence of mass communication right when we need it most.

The only blip I see is if mass communication somehow contributed to the problem, which is possible since so many errors are able to spread so much faster.

Adding to it now with regard to work, this is where it gets complicated because in order to maintain these things, we do need corporate ladders. But the bigger and more man made and full of red tape that it gets, the less people are in tune with developing their talents and being happy in their work. There's a bit of a catch 22 that many get caught in.

[Bonaventure]

Well KK, I think we have to avoided tendencies to romanticize anything. The idea of owning a nice farm out in Idaho, with a local chapel, star gazing at night, etc. seems very ideal. We can get out of our offices, our cities, etc.

The reality is that we have to face each day head on. We are where we are, when we are for a specific reason.

I think we have to live as good Catholic wherever God deigns to place us. If we are in the city, there are more occasions of sin and evil, but that's for a reason.

But then what do we do when our traditionalist priests and bishops tell us to flee the cities, buy a farm, and raise some chickens?

Are all of our clergy doing this, or is it a bishop here, a priest there?

Did priests from, say, 1900-1960 advice Catholic the world over to do so in moral theology books, prayer books, sermons, etc?

Cities, cars, etc. are nothing new. Whilst a farm lifestyle may be easier, I do not think we are all obliged to move to trad communes.

Farming isn't really easy, either. I worked with my grandpa on his small farm in Mexico for a few hours, and was exhausted. I couldn't imagine doing so for life from 5 AM to 5 PM.

I think we should make use of the talents God gave us. For example, you are an electrical engineer. I don't think it would make sense for you to leave that field and become a rural cobbler, for example.

[Bonaventure]

I wonder if it's a melancholic thing to romanticize. Probably.