Vetus Ordo and "Genuflecting as the priest passes by"

[Vetus Ordo]

Why pray before meals out loud in public? Why cross yourself when you pass a church. Why make a cursory bow to the empty tabernacle on Good Friday? Why do anything in public to give people a hint that you might be Catholic? It could draw attention to yourself.

Not the same thing. Those are all normal Catholic practices. Genuflecting to a mere priest is usurping the dignity proper to a bishop/prelate. A priest has massive responsibilities, but is not very highly ranked in the Church hierarchy at all.

(For the tabernacle thing, though, if it's also atop an altar, it's still proper to genuflect since you're genuflecting to the altar.)

Would it be more appropriate to flip the bird at the priest as he passes by after Mass? Just to remind him that he's just another miserable slob, like you.

And in truth he is.

Should Catholics show any respect to an alter Christus? Or should we always focus on our fallen natures?

All Catholics, including laymen, are altri Christi, something often forgotten in tridentine spirituality.

Futhermore, the protocolary respect of bowing and kneeling in front of the ordained is something inherited from the time when the clergy had secular power and were treated as princes. Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles.

[tmw89]

All Catholics, including laymen, are altri Christi, something often forgotten in tridentine spirituality.

Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the condemned notion of the "priesthood of the laity," or am I missing something?  Any Catholic pre-V2 sources to back this up, Vetus?

Futhermore, the protocolary respect of bowing and kneeling in from of the ordained is something inherited from the time when the clergy had secular power and were treated as princes.

Wouldn't mind a source on this either if you can find it...

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles.

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

[Vetus Ordo]

Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the condemned notion of the "priesthood of the laity," or am I missing something?  Any Catholic pre-V2 sources to back this up, Vetus?

The priesthood of all believers is preached in the word of God, like in 1 Peter 2:9. It can't be a "condemned notion." In fact, it was one of the rare good things about Vatican II, the recovery of this lost spiritual patrimony.

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

[tmw89]

Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the condemned notion of the "priesthood of the laity," or am I missing something?  Any Catholic pre-V2 sources to back this up, Vetus?

The priesthood of all believers is preached in the word of God, like in 1 Peter 2:9. It can't be a "condemned notion." In fact, it was one of the rare good things about Vatican II, the recovery of this lost spiritual patrimony.

You can cite pre-V2 Catholic authorities to confirm that interpretation of that passage?

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

And you should know better than to employ such sloppy logic like that, Vetus... not good form.


EDITED for clarification.

[EcceQuamBonum]

All Catholics, including laymen, are altri Christi, something often forgotten in tridentine spirituality.

Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the condemned notion of the "priesthood of the laity," or am I missing something?  Any Catholic pre-V2 sources to back this up, Vetus?

The priesthood of all believers is preached in the word of God, like in 1 Peter 2:9. It can't be a "condemned notion." In fact, it was one of the rare good things about Vatican II, the recovery of this lost spiritual patrimony.

I'll grant you that all baptized Christians are called to be altri Christi (in the sense of conforming our lives to His) and form part of the royal priesthood of the Church.  However, this doesn't mean that a layperson has the power to confect the Sacrament of the Altar, impart absolution, or perform the other sacerdotal duties reserved to the priests of the Church.  The Church has enjoyed a hierarchy of orders from its earliest days.  Simply pointing to the "priesthood of all believers" without any qualification does not a theological argument make.  Surely you do not believe that any random layperson could read the Dominical words over a host and a cup of wine and effect the sacramental action?  Ordination confers a singular, indelible mark on the soul that makes the priest an alter Christus in a way distinct from that of the layperson.  Again, I believe it is an eminently worthy practice to show an outward sign of reverence toward those who are so marked.

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

What's the problem?  It's a valid analogy.  You're reasoning by appeal to antiquarian sentiment only.  We do many things in ways distinct from how the Apostles did them.  So what?  tmw was merely working out the implications of your statement.

[Vetus Ordo]

You can cite pre-V2 authorities to confirm that interpretation of those passages?

The word of God is clear: "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2:5-10 )

We all are living stones who build up the Church, a people purchased with His blood, a holy and kingly priesthood who offers up spiritual sacrifices to God in Christ's name (1 Peter 2:5 et seq.) and present themselves as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God (Rom.12:1 et seq.). The ordained are set apart to preach, teach and administer the sacraments in the Church but all Christians are priests by virtue of their baptism. We can confidently say that all are, and should be, altri Christi.

Lumen Gentium seems to have opened the door for the recovery of this teaching. Listen to Peter Chrysologus, 5th Century Church Father and Bishop of Ravenna, on Romans 12:

"I appeal to you by the mercy of God. This appeal is made by Paul, or rather, it is made by God through Paul, because of God's desire to be loved rather than feared, to be a father rather than a Lord. God appeals to us in his mercy to avoid having to punish us in his severity.

Listen to the Lord's appeal: In me, I want you to see your own body, your members, your heart, your bones, your blood. You may fear what is divine, but why not love what is human? You may run away from me as the Lord, but why not run to me as your father? Perhaps you are filled with shame for causing my bitter passion. Do not be afraid. This cross inflicts a mortal injury, not on me, but on death. These nails no longer pain me, but only deepen your love for me. I do not cry out because of these wounds, but through them I draw you into my heart. My body was stretched on the cross as a symbol, not of how much I suffered, but of my all-embracing love. I count it no less to shed my blood: it is the price I have paid for your ransom. Come, then, return to me and learn to know me as your father, who repays good for evil, love for injury, and boundless charity for piercing wounds.

Listen now to what the Apostle urges us to do. I appeal to you, he says, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. By this exhortation of his, Paul has raised all men to priestly status.

How marvellous is the priesthood of the Christian, for he is both the victim that is offered on his own behalf, and the priest who makes the offering. He does not need to go beyond himself to seek what he is to immolate to God: with himself and in himself he brings the sacrifice he is to offer God for himself. The victim remains and the priest remains, always one and the same. Immolated, the victim still lives: the priest who immolates cannot kill. Truly it is an amazing sacrifice in which a body is offered without being slain and blood is offered without being shed.

The Apostle says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. Brethren, this sacrifice follows the pattern of Christ's sacrifice by which he gave his body as a living immolation for the life of the world. He really made his body a living sacrifice, because, though slain, he continues to live. In such a victim death receives its ransom, but the victim remains alive. Death itself suffers the punishment. This is why death for the martyrs is actually a birth, and their end a beginning. Their execution is the door to life, and those who were thought to have been blotted out from the earth shine brilliantly in heaven.

Paul says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a sacrifice, living and holy. The prophet said the same thing: Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but you have prepared a body for me. Each of us is called to be both a sacrifice to God and his priest. Do not forfeit what divine authority confers on you. Put on the garment of holiness, gird yourself with the belt of chastity. Let Christ be your helmet, let the cross on your forehead be your unfailing protection. Your breastplate should be the knowledge of God that he himself has given you. Keep burning continually the sweet smelling incense of prayer. Take up the sword of the Spirit. Let your heart be an altar. Then, with full confidence in God, present your body for sacrifice. God desires not death, but faith; God thirsts not for blood, but for self-surrender; God is appeased not by slaughter, but by the offering of your free will."

And you should know better than to employ such sloppy logic like that, Vetus... not good form.

You're calling me the one with sloppy logic? Really?

[Vetus Ordo]

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

What's the problem?  It's a valid analogy.  You're reasoning by appeal to antiquarian sentiment only.  We do many things in ways distinct from how the Apostles did them.  So what?  tmw was merely working out the implications of your statement.

A valid analogy?

The Apostles had an authority no bishop or priest will ever have and nobody conferred upon them these outward gestures of princely submission. This is not an "antiquarian sentiment" but an observation of fact. I'm not opposed to kissing rings and so forth but one shouldn't give the importance some people give to these formalities.

[tmw89]

Listen to Peter Chrysologus, 5th Century Church Father and Bishop of Ravenna, on Romans 12:

Please note the request for more than one pre-V2 authority:

You can cite pre-V2 Catholic authorities to confirm that interpretation of that passage?

...so as to ensure the reading of Chrysologus was not a minority opinion.

You're calling me the one with sloppy logic? Really?

Looks like I wasn't the only one who thought your logic was sloppy:

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

What's the problem?  It's a valid analogy.  You're reasoning by appeal to antiquarian sentiment only.  We do many things in ways distinct from how the Apostles did them.  So what?  tmw was merely working out the implications of your statement.

[Vetus Ordo]

Oh, I forgot Lumen Gentium doesn't count as an "authority" since it was written by heretics.

Nor Chrysologus, a bishop and doctor of the Church.

Nor the Bible, the very word of God which is, as we all know, a puzzle to be unravelled by the Roman magisterium alone. That is, the pre-Vatican II magisterium, the post-Vatican II one lost its way.

Sorry, forget I even said anything. Carry on.

[tmw89]

Nobody kneeled and bowed for the Apostles, therefore we shouldn't kneel/bow for bishops/priests.

Most of the Apostles were brutally martyred, therefore we should brutally martyr most bishops/priests.

Right?

You should be better than this.

What's the problem?  It's a valid analogy.  You're reasoning by appeal to antiquarian sentiment only.  We do many things in ways distinct from how the Apostles did them.  So what?  tmw was merely working out the implications of your statement.

A valid analogy?

Wait for the switch...

The Apostles had an authority no bishop or priest will ever have and nobody conferred upon them these outward gestures of princely submission. This is not an "antiquarian sentiment" but an observation of fact.

And there's the switch.

I'm not opposed to kissing rings and so forth but one shouldn't give the importance some people give to these formalities.

And yet the Roman Catholics the world over were taught there is an importance attached... meaning it is covered by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

[tmw89]

Oh, I forgot Lumen Gentium doesn't count as an "authority" since it was written by heretics.

Nor Chrysologus, a bishop and doctor of the Church.

Nor the Bible, the very word of God which is, as we all know, a puzzle to be unravelled by the Roman magisterium alone. That is, the pre-Vatican II magisterium, the post-Vatican II one lost its way.

Sorry, forget I even said anything. Carry on.

To quote you, earlier...

You should be better than this.

[EcceQuamBonum]

A valid analogy?

The Apostles had an authority no bishop or priest will ever have and nobody conferred upon them these outward gestures of princely submission. This is not an "antiquarian sentiment" but an observation of fact. I'm not opposed to kissing rings and so forth but one shouldn't give the importance some people give to these formalities.

Okay, I agree that no one did this for the Apostles, but I still fail to see how this really has much bearing on the point in question.  The argument "The Apostolic Church didn't do X, so we shouldn't do X" is little more than antiquarianism and lacks theological cogency.  Should we start celebrating our Masses in catacombs again, just for old times' sake?  There is a difference between arguing from the sensus Traditionis of the Church and making arbitrary appeals to how things were done in the early Church just to deny this or that practice.  These "formalities" evolved within the life of the Church as praiseworthy practices that were embraced by the faithful much in the way that numerous other practices evolved in the life of the Church.  If you want to take us back to the Apostolic Church, you're going to have to start making cuts everywhere, I'm afraid.

[EcceQuamBonum]

We all are living stones who build up the Church, a people purchased with His blood, a holy and kingly priesthood who offers up spiritual sacrifices to God in Christ's name (1 Peter 2:5 et seq.) and present themselves as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God (Rom.12:1 et seq.). The ordained are set apart to preach, teach and administer the sacraments in the Church but all Christians are priests by virtue of their baptism. We can confidently say that all are, and should be, altri Christi.

Right.  And this points to be the distinction I'm trying to draw here:  The power to confect the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ by virtue of his ordination invests the priest with the power to stand in persona Christi in a way that the layperson simply cannot.  The priest is alter Christus in a way that no layperson ever can be because he can, by the unique virtue of his sacerdotal office, actually and sacramentally effect the Sacrifice of the Altar.  That's the difference.  We the Church comprise a "kingdom, and priests to God and his Father" (Rev. 1:6), yes, but those who enjoy the specific sacrificial ministry serve a function within that kingdom that is distinct from the function that the layperson serves.