SSPX contradicts Trent?

Started by californiacatholic, April 29, 2023, 10:54:19 PM

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james03

QuoteI would liken the matter today to Christ in His Passion, when He was suffering, all battered, bruised and humiliated even the Apostles did not recognize Him as God.

Christ being laid in the tomb, to later Resurrect.  The Church is the Body of Christ.

QuoteWasn't this not supposed to include the Chair of Peter and visible hierarchy of the Church?

2 Thess. 2.  The papacy and the Pope, who hold back the anti-Christ:   "only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way."

Maybe now is not that time.  Because first there has to come a revolt.  For a world wide revolt by Catholics, you'd have to have some sort of wicked council to cause that effect.  And that council would have to use trickery.  It would have to taste sweet in the mouth, but in reality it would sour the stomach and be poison.  After that, then you'd expect most of the Church to be excluded from the Faith as measure by the iron rod of creed.

We just have to wait until we see that.  And then we might get the rise of a false Pope.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

#31
The Lord references Is. 22:22 when setting up the papacy:

Quote22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a peg in a sure place, and he shall be for a throne of glory to the house of his father.  24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, divers kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music. (The TLM)  25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the peg be removed, that was fastened in the sure place: and it shall be broken and shall fall: and that which hung thereon, shall perish, because the Lord hath spoken it.

edit:  Kind of interesting.  The SSPX and other groups saw the rotting peg and went off on their own, fleeing to the wilderness.  This quote seems to prophesy the destruction of Diocesan TLMs.  Speculation, but interesting.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

AlNg

Quote from: Stubborn on May 03, 2023, 03:22:41 AM
Quote from: AlNg on May 02, 2023, 02:55:16 PM
Quote from: Stubborn on May 01, 2023, 03:49:48 AMThere was a Council (V2) that created a new religion.
Did the Catholic Church then morph into this new religion? Something is wrong because the Catholic church is indefectible, so how can the visible Head of the Catholic church and the visible hierarchy of the Catholic church defect and stray from the Traditional true Catholic teachings? Unless it is not true that the Catholic church is indefectible? Which position I thought was heretical?

It's about 6 minutes long, well worth the time.

OK.
thanks for the video. Further investigation reveals that he has several informative videos or podcasts on the problems in the Church today:
https://archive.org/details/FatherHesse/Fr.+Hesse+-+Clarity+on+Bad+and+Heretical+Popes+(Remastered).mp3
https://archive.org/details/FatherHesse/A+Conversation+with+Fr.+Hesse+%231+(Remastered).mp3

He says that the Church is visible and indefectible because he celebrates the Latin Mass. But then he goes on to say that the current hierarchy is criminal and speaks badly about the Conciliar Church. So the Catholic Church has morphed into the conciliar Church. And if you are SV, where is the visible Head of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis has restricted the Latin Mass and do Traditional priests  submit to the Roman Pontiff or do they go off on their own and refuse to celebrate the Mass approved by the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic hierarchy? Actually, the SSPX teaches to refuse the currently approved Mass as it is a danger to the faith. By any definition, if the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic hierarchy are criminals, and they approve of a Mass which is a danger to the faith, and the Catholic Church has morphed into a counterfeit false church which is a danger to the faith, then what does that mean except that the Catholic Church has defected from its mission?

Stubborn

#33
Quote from: AlNg on May 03, 2023, 12:38:58 PMBy any definition, if the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic hierarchy are criminals, and they approve of a Mass which is a danger to the faith, and the Catholic Church has morphed into a counterfeit false church which is a danger to the faith, then what does that mean except that the Catholic Church has defected from its mission?

What it means is what you see, that the pope(s) and hierarchy have failed and are failing in their mission, in their duty. They are not the Church, they are the shepherds who have scandalized and abandoned their flock.  In this matter there are a lot of  people who do not believe what they see, they disbelieve their own eyes so need to come up with all sorts of wild theological ideas in an effort to satisfy their unbelief. 

Being indefectible the Catholic Church did not and can never defect or fail in it's mission. A few proofs of this truth are to be seen by the many True Masses from all trad priests and bishops throughout the world, and by priestly ordinations that continue, by the sacraments that are administered to the faithful, by conversions that continue to happen and will till the end of time, and on and on I could go. The Church, which is Christ, can never defect. She will never abandon her sheep, she will be here for us always to help and guide all of the faithful toward salvation. 

People, sedes in particular, tend to forget that Christ is the head of the Church, not the pope. Christ, being the head of the Church, is in complete control and as always was and always will be, has absolute charge of His Church. Nothing happens without Him permitting or directing it, absolutely nothing. Sometimes it may take great faith to believe this, but in reality all we need is the faith "as a grain of mustard seed."
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

AlNg

Quote from: Stubborn on May 04, 2023, 04:04:37 AM
Quote from: AlNg on May 03, 2023, 12:38:58 PMBy any definition, if the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic hierarchy are criminals, and they approve of a Mass which is a danger to the faith, and the Catholic Church has morphed into a counterfeit false church which is a danger to the faith, then what does that mean except that the Catholic Church has defected from its mission?

What it means is what you see, that the pope(s) and hierarchy have failed and are failing in their mission, in their duty. They are not the Church, they are the shepherds who have scandalized and abandoned their flock.  In this matter there are a lot of  people who do not believe what they see, they disbelieve their own eyes so need to come up with all sorts of wild theological ideas in an effort to satisfy their unbelief. 

Being indefectible the Catholic Church did not and can never defect or fail in it's mission. A few proofs of this truth are to be seen by the many True Masses from all trad priests and bishops throughout the world, and by priestly ordinations that continue, by the sacraments that are administered to the faithful, by conversions that continue to happen and will till the end of time, and on and on I could go. The Church, which is Christ, can never defect. She will never abandon her sheep, she will be here for us always to help and guide all of the faithful toward salvation. 

People, sedes in particular, tend to forget that Christ is the head of the Church, not the pope. Christ, being the head of the Church, is in complete control and as always was and always will be, has absolute charge of His Church. Nothing happens without Him permitting or directing it, absolutely nothing. Sometimes it may take great faith to believe this, but in reality all we need is the faith "as a grain of mustard seed."
Is the Roman Pontiff the visible Head of the Catholic Church?

james03

Of course.  And non sequitur.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Stubborn

Quote from: AlNg on May 04, 2023, 05:25:34 AM
Quote from: Stubborn on May 04, 2023, 04:04:37 AM
Quote from: AlNg on May 03, 2023, 12:38:58 PMBy any definition, if the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic hierarchy are criminals, and they approve of a Mass which is a danger to the faith, and the Catholic Church has morphed into a counterfeit false church which is a danger to the faith, then what does that mean except that the Catholic Church has defected from its mission?

What it means is what you see, that the pope(s) and hierarchy have failed and are failing in their mission, in their duty. They are not the Church, they are the shepherds who have scandalized and abandoned their flock.  In this matter there are a lot of  people who do not believe what they see, they disbelieve their own eyes so need to come up with all sorts of wild theological ideas in an effort to satisfy their unbelief. 

Being indefectible the Catholic Church did not and can never defect or fail in it's mission. A few proofs of this truth are to be seen by the many True Masses from all trad priests and bishops throughout the world, and by priestly ordinations that continue, by the sacraments that are administered to the faithful, by conversions that continue to happen and will till the end of time, and on and on I could go. The Church, which is Christ, can never defect. She will never abandon her sheep, she will be here for us always to help and guide all of the faithful toward salvation. 

People, sedes in particular, tend to forget that Christ is the head of the Church, not the pope. Christ, being the head of the Church, is in complete control and as always was and always will be, has absolute charge of His Church. Nothing happens without Him permitting or directing it, absolutely nothing. Sometimes it may take great faith to believe this, but in reality all we need is the faith "as a grain of mustard seed."
Is the Roman Pontiff the visible Head of the Catholic Church?

Of course he is, sins and all.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

Aethel

#37
Fwiw, I always understood the SSPX as recognizing that Vatican II and it's promulgaters (including several Popes) objectively, very manifestly, repudiated key tenants of Roman Catholic doctrine and several Papal Encyclicals, even canons of Apostolic and Ecumenical Councils - including Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors - however, lacking the legal canonical authority to issue a formal declaration of the Papacy's vacancy.

For all of these reasons, the SSPX is functionally Sedevacantist but still treats the Church as though there is a Pope, out of recognition they lack canonical authority to depose the Pope.

Vatican I is pretty clear that the Pope is subject to no judgment. However, the Pope cannot manifestly transgress doctrine and repudiate prior teaching.

We are in a situation where, according to the SSPX, the Pope is doing so.