SSPX contradicts Trent?

Started by californiacatholic, April 29, 2023, 10:54:19 PM

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californiacatholic

April 29, 2023, 10:54:19 PM
Hello! I am not anti-SSPX at all and am attempting to attend one of their masses but I keep feeling that the SSPX position may contradict the Council of Trent.

QuoteIf any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.
Œcumenical Council of Trent, Session XXII Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass Canon VII On the Sacrifice of the Mass

If the SSPX accepts the legitimacy of the Vatican and the authority of the Pope's, how does their rejection of the NO as spirtually harmful not contradict priror church teachings?

I was hopping for SSPX answers as the last thread on the Indefectibility of the Church turned into a SV vs SP debate
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

Stubborn

#1
April 30, 2023, 04:28:36 AM
That canon is merely stating there is nothing contradictory or harmful to the faith in the Mass of Pope St. Pius V, which is the same Mass SSPX and all trads celebrate which is the same Mass the evil New "mass"  illegally replaced.

Trent is not in any way, shape or form talking about the NOM. The NOM is New, it was not invented till some 400 years after Trent.

Do not hesitate to go to the SSPX. In the same vein, do not hesitate to always avoid the NOM.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

californiacatholic

#2
April 30, 2023, 10:35:38 AM
This seems to be the case but the Council was presented to me with the following bull.

QuoteThe prescription of the synod about the order of transacting business in the conferences, in which, after it prefaced 'in every article that which pertains to faith and to the essence of religion must be distinguished from that which is proper to discipline,' it adds, 'in this itself (discipline) there is to be distinguished what is necessary or useful to retain the faithful in spirit, from that which is useless or too burden-some for the liberty of the sons of the new Covenant to endure, but more so, from that which is dangerous or harmful, namely, leading to superstitution and materialism'; in so far as by the generality of the words it includes and submits to a prescribed examination even the discipline established and approved by the Church, as if the Church which is ruled by the Spirit of God could have established discipline which is not only useless and burdensome for Christian liberty to endure, but which is even dangerous and harmful and leading to superstition and materialism,—false, rash, scandalous, dangerous, offensive to pious ears, injurious to the Church and to the Spirit of God by whom it is guided, at least erroneous.
Papal Bull of Pius VI Auctorem Fidei Condemned Error No. 78.

It seems the church cannot promulgate anything burdensome. How does the SSPX reconcile this with submission to the Vatican?
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

Kent

#3
April 30, 2023, 10:53:13 AM
Frankly, this teaching of Trent is one (of many) reasons to conclude that the New Mass simply is not of the Church. And if it is not of the Church, it's safe to say that its architects and champions are not of the Church either.
I do profess to be no less than I seem, to serve him truly
that will put me in trust, to love him that is honest, to
converse with him that is wise and says little, to fear
judgment, to fight when I cannot choose, and to eat no fish.

californiacatholic

#4
April 30, 2023, 11:03:57 AM
Quote from: Kent on April 30, 2023, 10:53:13 AMFrankly, this teaching of Trent is one (of many) reasons to conclude that the New Mass simply is not of the Church. And if it is not of the Church, it's safe to say that its architects and champions are not of the Church either.

Would this make the SSPX position of being within the church and subservient to the Pope contradictory
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

Michael Wilson

#5
April 30, 2023, 11:12:49 AM Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 11:15:04 AM by Michael Wilson
Yes, it is contradictory: The SSPX is not submissive to the authorities of the Vatican as understood by the Popes and theologians before Vatican II, as they do not accept the (erroneous) teachings of Vatican II; the post Conciliar Magisterium which deepens and makes these errors more explicit and implements them; the new and novel Catechism of the Catholic Church; the new rite of the Mass; etc. etc.
The SSPX theologically justifies its position by reducing the obligation of said submission only to those magisterial acts which are in accord with the traditional Catholic faith; and holding that aside from its solemn exercise, the magisterium is liable to error in matters of faith and discipline.
The irony of this abnormal situation, is that the Council's teaching on Religious Liberty (the right of every man not to be impeded in the practice of any religion, D.H.#2); & Ecumenism (the Holy Ghost uses false religions as means of salvation U.R.#3); is that the SSPX can point to these novel teachings, as doctrinally legitimizing this dis-obedience and being in harmony with the novel doctrines.   
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Heinrich

#6
April 30, 2023, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: californiacatholic on April 30, 2023, 11:03:57 AM
Quote from: Kent on April 30, 2023, 10:53:13 AMFrankly, this teaching of Trent is one (of many) reasons to conclude that the New Mass simply is not of the Church. And if it is not of the Church, it's safe to say that its architects and champions are not of the Church either.

Would this make the SSPX position of being within the church and subservient to the Pope contradictory

If my dad forced me to accept his prostituting of my sister, would I have to obey him?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Michael Wilson

#7
April 30, 2023, 11:32:51 AM
QuoteIf my dad forced me to accept his prostituting of my sister, would I have to obey him?
You would be obliged to resist him; man is never allowed to do evil even to obtain a good end.
The issue which many trads are not clear on is the authority of the magisterium outside of its solemn definitions and the "infallible security" of Catholics in submitting to and obeying said magisterium.
The Church being the "Immaculate Bride of Christ" and His Mystical Body, cannot lead her faithful into error or perdition. Vatican II presents itself as an act of the Magisterium, and yet at the same time, breaks with and contradicts this same magisterium in the name of progress and doctrinal evolution. So in the case of Religious Liberty, which Popes of the past two Centuries condemned many times as "freedom of perdition"; "Insanity"; "heresy"; was presented at the Council as part of divine revelation contained "in the revealed word of God" (???); and which nobody in the Church ever heard about until Vatican II. So Catholics faced with the choice of doctrinal fidelity to revelation or documents that claim to come from the magisterium were/are faced with a choice of acceptance of said authority and submission to its false teaching or rejection of the false teaching and therefore rejection of said authority.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

californiacatholic

#8
April 30, 2023, 11:35:02 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on April 30, 2023, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: californiacatholic on April 30, 2023, 11:03:57 AM
Quote from: Kent on April 30, 2023, 10:53:13 AMFrankly, this teaching of Trent is one (of many) reasons to conclude that the New Mass simply is not of the Church. And if it is not of the Church, it's safe to say that its architects and champions are not of the Church either.

Would this make the SSPX position of being within the church and subservient to the Pope contradictory

If my dad forced me to accept his prostituting of my sister, would I have to obey him?

This is a good point but if the church is indefectable in it's promulgations and liturgy doesn't this mean the Conciliar Church is not the legitimate church? If so shouldn't the SSPX have nothing to do with it?
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

Michael Wilson

#9
April 30, 2023, 11:44:41 AM
Essentially, the SSPX pays "lip-service" obedience to the Conciliar authorities, while operating independently of it. Pope Paul VI ordered Msgr. Lefebvre to close down his seminary in 1975 and Msgr. In response stated that he was rejecting "Neo_Modernist" Rome while being faithful to Eternal Rome (See Archbishop Lefebvre's 1974 declaration); he kept his seminary open, ordained priests in 1976 and was suspended "a-divinis" (no right to exercise any apostolate). Making an even stronger statement in Lille, France that year against the "Conciliar Church" (sermon of Lille against the "bastard religion" which emerged from Vatican II). Finally Msgr. Consecrated four bishops in 1988 against the explicit orders of Pope John Paul II, and which earned him an official excommunication from (as he characterized it) the Conciliar Church. These excos were eventually lifted by Benedict XVI; but the SSPX remains the same as before and during these; as "practically" excomunicated body of faithful Catholics who refuse to go into apostasy though obedience to false authorities. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

californiacatholic

#10
April 30, 2023, 03:40:28 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2023, 11:44:41 AMEssentially, the SSPX pays "lip-service" obedience to the Conciliar authorities, while operating independently of it. Pope Paul VI ordered Msgr. Lefebvre to close down his seminary in 1975 and Msgr. In response stated that he was rejecting "Neo_Modernist" Rome while being faithful to Eternal Rome (See Archbishop Lefebvre's 1974 declaration); he kept his seminary open, ordained priests in 1976 and was suspended "a-divinis" (no right to exercise any apostolate). Making an even stronger statement in Lille, France that year against the "Conciliar Church" (sermon of Lille against the "bastard religion" which emerged from Vatican II). Finally Msgr. Consecrated four bishops in 1988 against the explicit orders of Pope John Paul II, and which earned him an official excommunication from (as he characterized it) the Conciliar Church. These excos were eventually lifted by Benedict XVI; but the SSPX remains the same as before and during these; as "practically" excomunicated body of faithful Catholics who refuse to go into apostasy though obedience to false authorities. 

Wouldn't this make the SSPX defacto sedevacantist or sedeprivationist? Wouldn't this undermine their claim to be in a valid order within the wider church and be contrary to their efforts to reconcile with said church? Also if the Councilar Church is illegitimate, why would the SSPX attempt to rejoin them at all?
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

Jmartyr

#11
April 30, 2023, 03:40:40 PM
The original promulgation of the NO did not have the "force" of language that subsequent readings had. Paul VI wanted the NO enforced, but the language of the original document did not explicitly state this. The original latin in Missale Romanum wasn't as clear cut as the other languages additions.A pope does not have the authority to abolish a rite of Mass that has been established by custom for over a thousand years. Benedict and JPII recognized this fact.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther

Michael Wilson

#12
April 30, 2023, 04:13:04 PM
QuoteWouldn't this make the SSPX defacto sedevacantist or sedeprivationist? Wouldn't this undermine their claim to be in a valid order within the wider church and be contrary to their efforts to reconcile with said church? Also if the Councilar Church is illegitimate, why would the SSPX attempt to rejoin them at all?
1. Yes.
2.Yes. Yes.
3.Beats the tar out me.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

californiacatholic

#13
April 30, 2023, 04:30:05 PM
Quote from: Jmartyr on April 30, 2023, 03:40:40 PMThe original promulgation of the NO did not have the "force" of language that subsequent readings had. Paul VI wanted the NO enforced, but the language of the original document did not explicitly state this. The original latin in Missale Romanum wasn't as clear cut as the other languages additions.A pope does not have the authority to abolish a rite of Mass that has been established by custom for over a thousand years. Benedict and JPII recognized this fact.

What about prior vulgar masses or the Galician Rites?
Lord make me an instrument of thy peace

AlNg

#14
April 30, 2023, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: californiacatholic on April 30, 2023, 11:35:02 AM... if the church is indefectable in it's promulgations and liturgy...
Yes. I am focusing in on this point. Church teaching is that the Catholic Church is indefectible. However, AFAIK, SV teach that the visible Catholic Church, the visible Head and the hierarchy loyal to the visible Head,  have strayed from the true and traditional teachings of the Catholic church, and has morphed into the Conciliar Church, which is a counterfeit Church, not the Catholic Church. It looks to many that this means that the Catholic Church has defected, even though i understand SV continue to assert their belief in the indefectibility of the Catholic church. 
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