Is Traditional Catholicism post-modern?

Started by Aethel, April 03, 2023, 09:24:56 PM

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Aethel

I think in a world of nihilism and the continuing decadence of the West, many people find a refuge in ideological systems which hold a totally different metanarrative than the Neocon or Neoliberal West - for many, often with good intention, that is Traditional Catholicism. However, I have to ask a provocative question, which I ask not to offend people, but rather because it's a criticism I've heard before - is Catholicism Post-Modern?

Slovenian Philosopher Slavoj Zizek stated that Trump was the ultimate post-modern president because he was a man of paradox - while basing his identity on Evangelical Christianity, even going so far to say that he's more of a Christian than Pope Francis - paradoxically was a crass, raunchy, immature, and abrasive personality to such an extent that no traditional Christian say from the Victorian Era could ever see such a person as fit for leadership.

I therefore have to ask - is Traditional Catholicism itself truly Post-Modern? Traditional Catholicism I find often identifies with much of the same people Trump appeals to, and often embraces political and social impulses that are in opposition to a Catholic of Pre-Vatican II times, someone like G.K. Chesterton or Tolkien, or even a Christian like C.S. Lewis.

Without offending anyone, I'll give a couple of examples. The embrace of figures like Andrew Tate by many. Many view him as a burst of "traditional masculinity" through his polemics. But his valuation of hierarchy, power, and sexual dominance is totally at odds with the Catholicism of our ancestors who taught quite the opposite. Another one - the vaccine. The Church generally taught obedience as a moral good with the Buck stopping at sin. However, resistance to vaccine mandates put in place seems synonymous with much of Traditional Catholicism. And so on.

Now, the counter argument is that the members of the Church were never totally consistent between the teachings and lived faith, but I think in this era of bizarre social norms, the gulf is quite wider than previously.

So is Catholicism truly post-modern?

Francisco Javier

Thank you for this incredibly thought provoking post. I really enjoyed your critique.

I now will accept a 49 year old wife and will get vaccinated with whatever Bill Gates and the other atheistic satanic technocrats tell me.


CatholicStudyAttempt

Quote from: Aethel on April 03, 2023, 09:24:56 PMThe embrace of figures like Andrew Tate by many.

 Oh, that's pure stupidity based on lust and tribalism. More premodernism than postmodernism

CatholicStudyAttempt

Quote from: Francisco Javier on April 03, 2023, 09:48:35 PMThank you for this incredibly thought provoking post. I really enjoyed your critique.

I now will accept a 49 year old wife and will get vaccinated with whatever Bill Gates and the other atheistic satanic technocrats tell me.



 I got vaccinated. Strangely alive. I wore mask and social distanced too.

CatholicStudyAttempt

Quote from: Aethel on April 03, 2023, 09:24:56 PMSlovenian Philosopher Slavoj Zizek stated that Trump was the ultimate post-modern president because he was a man of paradox - while basing his identity on Evangelical Christianity, even going so far to say that he's more of a Christian than Pope Francis - paradoxically was a crass, raunchy, immature, and abrasive personality to such an extent that no traditional Christian say from the Victorian Era could ever see such a person as fit for leadership.

  The real key is to understand Trump as a right-wing reflection of the shock-culture of MTV from the left- instead of Satanist and Gangsters it's sexism and racism. He is the ID, and justified by free speech exactly as the cultural leftist had done.
  Between two opposites there is a ground. Irony is necessity, lol.

Tennessean

I'd say there's overlap, but whether the faith takes root is another matter. People can come to the Faith for any number of reasons.

Jmartyr

Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 03, 2023, 10:41:18 PM
Quote from: Francisco Javier on April 03, 2023, 09:48:35 PMThank you for this incredibly thought provoking post. I really enjoyed your critique.

I now will accept a 49 year old wife and will get vaccinated with whatever Bill Gates and the other atheistic satanic technocrats tell me.



 I got vaccinated. Strangely alive. I wore mask and social distanced too.
Big surprise.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther

CatholicStudyAttempt

Quote from: Jmartyr on April 06, 2023, 08:23:13 PM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 03, 2023, 10:41:18 PM
Quote from: Francisco Javier on April 03, 2023, 09:48:35 PMThank you for this incredibly thought provoking post. I really enjoyed your critique.

I now will accept a 49 year old wife and will get vaccinated with whatever Bill Gates and the other atheistic satanic technocrats tell me.



 I got vaccinated. Strangely alive. I wore mask and social distanced too.
Big surprise.

  Shock value 999999999

Acolyte

How would everyone here define Traditional Catholicism ?

I would say it's the practice of Catholicism with strict adherence to, and embrace of, The Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX. Combined with the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

The sum of the two being the measuring stick if you will. Embracing both is to be orthodox.

Nothing modern or post modern about it. And Trump is not representative of anything Catholic.
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Jmartyr

Quote from: Acolyte on April 06, 2023, 09:24:38 PMHow would everyone here define Traditional Catholicism ?

I would say it's the practice of Catholicism with strict adherence to, and embrace of, The Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX. Combined with the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

The sum of the two being the measuring stick if you will. Embracing both is to be orthodox.

Nothing modern or post modern about it. And Trump is not representative of anything Catholic.
Trump slowed down the baby killing. At least a little Catholic.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther

james03

QuotePostmodernism is associated with relativism and a focus on the role of ideology in the maintenance of economic and political power.[4] Postmodernists are "skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person".[20] It considers "reality" to be a mental construct.[20] Postmodernism rejects the possibility of unmediated reality or objectively-rational knowledge, asserting that all interpretations are contingent on the perspective from which they are made;[5] claims to objective fact are dismissed as naive realism.[4]

Postmodernism and critical theory (jewish Fankfurt School) commonly criticize universalist ideas of objective reality, morality, truth, human nature, reason, language, and social progress.[4]

The inability to make distinctions is not sophistication.  Trads are COUNTER Modernist and most definitely counter post-modernist.

What this definition of post-modernism describes is the world view of heresiarch Bergoglio, hater of Christ and His people.  After the modernist assault launched at the wicked Vat II by modernists, the post-modernists were born who asked a very reasonable question of the modernists: If the Church was wrong for 2,000 years, and that is exactly what your council claims despite the flowery language, then how do we know that YOU are correct today?

As far as Slavoj Zizek, he must be a soyboy, internally threatened by the site of men actually standing up and fighting for their beliefs.  That is the only explanation for saying Trump is the "ultimate" post-modernist.  A post modernist doesn't say, "Abortion is wrong and Roe V. Wade needs to be overturned".  No, that's a hero, and Trump was a hero, objectively speaking.

The greatest evil to inflict mankind since the jews sacrificed their babies to demons is abortion.  That is what Trump ended and that objectively makes him a hero.

And why did we need a rather loud and sometimes boorish man to deliver us?  Because our effete wimpy bishops did nothing, with few exceptions.  Here is what God rubbed our nose in by raising up Trump to finally deliver us from abortion:



I will never let Catholics forget that day.  The filthy marxist Kenyan given Catholic honors while an 80 year old pro-life priest is tagged like a dog just outside.  And what did the bishops do?  What did the pope do?  Failures.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Aethel

#11
Quote from: james03 on April 11, 2023, 02:20:54 PM
QuotePostmodernism is associated with relativism and a focus on the role of ideology in the maintenance of economic and political power.[4] Postmodernists are "skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person".[20] It considers "reality" to be a mental construct.[20] Postmodernism rejects the possibility of unmediated reality or objectively-rational knowledge, asserting that all interpretations are contingent on the perspective from which they are made;[5] claims to objective fact are dismissed as naive realism.[4]

Postmodernism and critical theory (jewish Fankfurt School) commonly criticize universalist ideas of objective reality, morality, truth, human nature, reason, language, and social progress.[4]

The inability to make distinctions is not sophistication.  Trads are COUNTER Modernist and most definitely counter post-modernist.

What this definition of post-modernism describes is the world view of heresiarch Bergoglio, hater of Christ and His people.  After the modernist assault launched at the wicked Vat II by modernists, the post-modernists were born who asked a very reasonable question of the modernists: If the Church was wrong for 2,000 years, and that is exactly what your council claims despite the flowery language, then how do we know that YOU are correct today?

As far as Slavoj Zizek, he must be a soyboy, internally threatened by the site of men actually standing up and fighting for their beliefs.  That is the only explanation for saying Trump is the "ultimate" post-modernist.  A post modernist doesn't say, "Abortion is wrong and Roe V. Wade needs to be overturned".  No, that's a hero, and Trump was a hero, objectively speaking.

The greatest evil to inflict mankind since the jews sacrificed their babies to demons is abortion.  That is what Trump ended and that objectively makes him a hero.

And why did we need a rather loud and sometimes boorish man to deliver us?  Because our effete wimpy bishops did nothing, with few exceptions.  Here is what God rubbed our nose in by raising up Trump to finally deliver us from abortion:



I will never let Catholics forget that day.  The filthy marxist Kenyan given Catholic honors while an 80 year old pro-life priest is tagged like a dog just outside.  And what did the bishops do?  What did the pope do?  Failures.

Good evening James,

I think my point of "Traditional Catholicism" being post-modern is this: Per the definition which you cited, it becomes difficult to access or ascertain certain truths because all interpretations are filtered through subjective, personal experience (including the desire for power and status), making the idea of an objective ideology an impossibility; identifying something as "post-modern" means something that, per se, demonstrates a personal, self-beneficial intent with people holding onto inherently contradictory paradigms.

My main point here is that Traditional Catholicism has, socially, become synonymous with MAGA and Trumpism, or with similar ideological crowds. However, Traditional Catholicism parades itself around as synonymous with the Catholicism of the 1950s and before.

The post-modernism is that there are many aspects of Trumpism and MAGA that strictly clash with political and moral values from the 1950s and before, such that it almost, per se, demonstrates Traditional Catholicism as something subjectively, personally motivated. Rather than its followers wanting a genuine return to Catholicism as it existed in the 1950s and before, it's used as a tool for political purposes and power - namely, the ideologies  of Trump and MAGA.

QuoteWhat this definition of post-modernism describes is the world view of heresiarch Bergoglio, hater of Christ and His people.  After the modernist assault launched at the wicked Vat II by modernists, the post-modernists were born who asked a very reasonable question of the modernists: If the Church was wrong for 2,000 years, and that is exactly what your council claims despite the flowery language, then how do we know that YOU are correct today?

This is a fair point too; maybe generic, mainstream Catholicism is itself post-modern; it's very clear that Catholicism from the time of Vatican II was used by the West to promote American Enlightenment, as well as Capitalistic, ideals against the Soviets during the Cold War, in a way ideologically that was contradictory to its past. However, that was then; the problem with mainstream Catholicism is that it's really an undefinable thing which anyone from James Martin and Stephen Colbert to Jordan Peterson and Bishop Barron can use to advance their own ideological agenda. That may show it to be contradictory, but I don't think that as easily shows itself to be subjectively, personally motivated.
 
Quote from: james03As far as Slavoj Zizek, he must be a soyboy, internally threatened by the site of men actually standing up and fighting for their beliefs.  That is the only explanation for saying Trump is the "ultimate" post-modernist.  A post modernist doesn't say, "Abortion is wrong and Roe V. Wade needs to be overturned".  No, that's a hero, and Trump was a hero, objectively speaking.

Slavoj Zizek, as a philosopher, is not a "soy boy". He's an older Slovenian man.
He's an interesting figure; he went into academia during the time of Communist Yugoslavia, and as such, focused much of his political studies on Marxist political theory. But unlike many Marxists today, he loves Thomas Aquinas and G.K. Chesterton and respects the Western cultural and philosophical tradition.

Unlike contemporary Frankfurt School type Marxists, he rejects the Marxist egalitarian narratives of a gradual progression towards an equilibrium, and he has been very outspoken against political correctness ideology, particularly as it concerns cultural issues and LGBT issues (which he views more as a product of our consumerist culture). He has disavowed contemporary Leftist self-hatred of Western-culture (believing it to be kind of a bourgeoise faux victim-complex virtue signaling), and readily embraces many traditional Western thinkers unabashedly - he has repeatedly stated his love of G.K. Chesterton's work, as well as Thomas Aquinas, and stated that while he is an atheist himself, Christianity as a philosophical system has great independent, secular value. He's even gone so far as to state that Christianity, as a religious structure, was far superior philosophically in Western Europe compared to Zen Buddhism in China and Japan (which he believes can be too escapist and the idea of "everything being an illusion" and "karma" readily enables governments to commit atrocities).

While I am not a Marxist myself, he has many great ideas that make him a compelling figure to me. For example, and these aren't his words - he has stated that Neoliberal ideas are all rooted in a goal towards an undefinable negative, "selflessness", and that this "negative" is a convenient way to prevent any real agreed upon solutions to problems, while allowing parasites to move the goal-posts because everyone can falsely claim selflessness in their goals, as nobody can really define what "selflessness" is in an honest way.

Rather, we should be more egoistic in our search for solutions to socio-political problems, and be honest - "what is good for me, us, our society, our children," etc.

He also has some unique ideas about theology (although he applies these things in secular senses). He repeats Chesterton in the claim that when Jesus had his symbolic doubt of atheism, God Himself, even if symbolically, doubted his own existence due to the trials that human life often creates for us, and to engage in such struggle means to be as the Divine itself, because it's a part of God's experience Himself.

Another idea of his is that Christ's death is a strict abdication and even death of God as a purely mysterious, transcendental thing; with the elevation of human nature into the heavens as God Himself (through Christ having both natures) God now relies on our nature just as much as we rely on His nature; God gives the Church divine authority and delegates himself to humanity, allowing humanity to control God's Will, by virtue of God's dependence on human nature for his own continued existence.


He did a three hour debate with Jordan Peterson, and, in my opinion, whopped him. It's a video worth checking out.

james03

QuoteHe's an interesting figure; he went into academia during the time of Communist Yugoslavia, and as such, focused much of his political studies on Marxist political theory.

You are basing your critique of Trads on a marxist?

QuoteMy main point here is that Traditional Catholicism has, socially, become synonymous with MAGA and Trumpism, or with similar ideological crowds. However, Traditional Catholicism parades itself around as synonymous with the Catholicism of the 1950s and before.

Communists and fascists both breath air.  Trads and MAGA are both reactionary movements against the current jewish bolshevik revolution.  The inability to make distinctions is not sophistication.  Trump is friendly to sodomites and pushed the vax.  Trads and MAGA are not synonymous.  They have overlap, again being reactionary movements that fight against the imposition of the jewish terror state, but distinctions are important.

Neither can be classified as post-modern however.

"Postmodernism and critical theory (jewish Fankfurt School) commonly criticize universalist ideas of objective reality, morality..."

Catholics obviously reject this and want to kill it with fire.  MAGA also appears to reject this as seen with the school board revolts, but not as strongly as Trads.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Aethel

#13
Quote from: james03 on April 12, 2023, 07:30:27 AMYou are basing your critique of Trads on a marxist?
Yes and no. The main reasons I find Marxism pathological (it's skewed anthropology, constructionism, and naively optimistic outlook on human nature, as well as its resentment based morality where higher hierarchical status is viewed pathologically) he avoids, and while there is much I disagree with him on, there's much I agree with him on too. It's very hard to call him a Marxist because much of his ideology clashes with traditional notions of Marxism, a lot of it is a product of circumstances - where he was born, when, etc. Even Jordan Peterson in that famous debate called him a "strange Marxist" and asked him why he identifies with that label, to which he responded that he was more of a Hegelian than a Marxist.

I find labels less important than ideas. I think Zizek is more Catholic than Fr. James Martin, a Catholic priest (at least more traditional forms of Catholicism). Bernie Sanders may have been far left for some, but I agreed with him more than Hilary Clinton, and found her more radical on other ideas.

TradGranny

Aethel is a sophist.

noun, plural soph·ist·ries.
a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.

The Church has always taught God, Truth and Objective Reality exist regardless of anyone's subjective opinion (as explained in Plato's Allergory of the Cave.)

Satanists, Communists, Fascists and other Revolutionaries reject Objective Reality and rely on the use of the erroneous notion of subjective opinon or Subjective Reality in order to manipulate and control populations.

Aethel writes like a smart bot, his primary weakness being that his fallback unstated basic assumption is Subjective Reality -- the polar opposite of Objective Reality as taught by the Church.

To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila