Should we accept this wisdom of the Talmud?

Started by CatholicStudyAttempt, March 29, 2023, 04:14:44 PM

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Aethel

#15
Good afternoon CatholicStudyAttempt.

The problem with mocking superstitious attitudes like this is that these ancient religious writers didn't have the technology, medicine, cosmology, and general knowledge we have today. As such, it's not an effective apologetic argument because there are equally superstitious things found in early Catholic writings.

The immediate example that comes to mind are some of the examples found in Saint Gregory's Dialogues.

In one story, a nun got possessed by a demon after she ate a piece of lettuce because she did not bless the lettuce. In another story, a homeless Jew sleeps in a pagan temple and sees three demons who are plotting to cause a priest to lust after a nun. In yet another story, during Mass when the Priest announces for the unworthy of the Lamb to depart (which used to be a part of the Roman Rite and is still found in texts of the Eastern Rite and variations of the Early Latin Rite like the Sarum Rite), two dead nuns rise from their graves and walk away from the Church, so Saint Benedict has to come and bless them such that they are saved.

These are writings from a canonized Saint who laid some foundational ground for Western theology and praxis, including Masses for the Dead and even the theology of Purgatory.

There are other stories too - for example, Saint Patrick banishing the snakes from Ireland, Saint George slaying a dragon, and plenty more from the Golden Legend like Saint Agnes miraculously growing hair to cover her whole body to prevent sexual assault or Mary Magdalene visiting France to proselytize the pagans.

One could say that this proves that Catholic wisdom is faulty, superstitious, and outdated too.

Most religious Jews who are aware of these superstitions (at least that I've been exposed to) don't read these ideas literally and believe they have spiritual meaning deep within them. Not to mention, there's a great amount of cosmological contradiction between Kabbalistic and Talmudic sources which are often viewed as authoritative for the Jews. For example, Satan. The Talmud teaches that he is an archangel who is secretly a good guy working with God to test humanity, whereas Kabbalistic sources tend to teach that he was an aspect of God that rebelled against God's authority and was deprived of all divinity, now an empty "shell" of the void without personhood or life. Not to mention Jews will also look to Enoch for some historical authority which taught that Satan is an angel that rebelled against God's authority and fell from Grace (and it seems from a historical sense to be the first instance of Satan as this conception).

All of this is notwithstanding the fact that some Jewish Rabbis have a notorious cliche where they tell the reader that they are lying or concealing certain things in their writing so only the spiritually enlightened can parse what's true in their writing and what's false (particular the more mystical texts). The cynical side of me thinks this was used as a self-defense mechanism so their theological writings could never be viewed as wrong.

TradGranny

Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 03, 2023, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: TradGranny on April 03, 2023, 12:49:55 PM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 02, 2023, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: TradGranny on April 02, 2023, 06:02:17 PM
Quote from: benedicite on March 30, 2023, 03:07:01 AMWe can accept the Talmud in as much as it does not contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is more important to study your catechism and let that be the light which guides you.

Blasphemous attacks on Our Lord and Our Lady (too disgusting to repeat here) mean that Catholics should not read that digusting filth. Or do you like a little poison mixed in with your meal?

  To can read it to criticize the descendants of the Pharisees. As to the Zohar how anyone doesn't instantly laugh at it upon reading perplexes me.

In your OP you referred to that document which is a disgusting blasphemous attack on God, His Church, Our Lady and Our Lord the "Wisdom of the Talmud."

  I was being sarcastic

Sarcasm is a form of humor and it is never funny to mock God, His Church, Our Lady and Our Lord.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

Melkite

Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:14:44 PM"It has been taught: Abba Benjamin says, If the eye had the power to see them, no creature could endure the demons. Abaye says: They are more numerous than we are and they surround us like the ridge round a field. R. Huna says: Every one among us has a thousand on his left hand and ten thousand on his right hand. Raba says: The crushing in the Kallah lectures comes from them.
Fatigue in the knees comes from them. The wearing out of the clothes of the scholars is due to their rubbing against them. The bruising of the feet comes from them. If one wants to discover them, him take sifted ashes and sprinkle around his bed, and in the morning he will see something like the
footprints of a cock. If one wishes to see them, let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them. Let him also pour it into an
iron tube and seal it with an iron signet that they should not steal it from him. Let him also close his mouth, lest he come to harm. R. Bibi b. Abaye did so, saw them and came to harm. The scholars,however, prayed for him and he recovered."



Witchcraft.

CatholicStudyAttempt

Quote from: Melkite on April 12, 2023, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:14:44 PM"It has been taught: Abba Benjamin says, If the eye had the power to see them, no creature could endure the demons. Abaye says: They are more numerous than we are and they surround us like the ridge round a field. R. Huna says: Every one among us has a thousand on his left hand and ten thousand on his right hand. Raba says: The crushing in the Kallah lectures comes from them.
Fatigue in the knees comes from them. The wearing out of the clothes of the scholars is due to their rubbing against them. The bruising of the feet comes from them. If one wants to discover them, him take sifted ashes and sprinkle around his bed, and in the morning he will see something like the
footprints of a cock. If one wishes to see them, let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them. Let him also pour it into an
iron tube and seal it with an iron signet that they should not steal it from him. Let him also close his mouth, lest he come to harm. R. Bibi b. Abaye did so, saw them and came to harm. The scholars,however, prayed for him and he recovered."



Witchcraft.
If it worked, but mainly I'd just say bullshiting. The Talmud has a lot of stuff which is clearly just bullshiting, and I think that teaches bad values to the Jewish people, either to adopt poor reasoning or to actively lie. That's why many of the Jews with the most talent are atheist. It also frees them from the rabbis

Tennessean


awkward customer


Bonaventure

Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 03, 2023, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: TradGranny on April 03, 2023, 12:49:55 PM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on April 02, 2023, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: TradGranny on April 02, 2023, 06:02:17 PM
Quote from: benedicite on March 30, 2023, 03:07:01 AMWe can accept the Talmud in as much as it does not contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is more important to study your catechism and let that be the light which guides you.

Blasphemous attacks on Our Lord and Our Lady (too disgusting to repeat here) mean that Catholics should not read that digusting filth. Or do you like a little poison mixed in with your meal?

  To can read it to criticize the descendants of the Pharisees. As to the Zohar how anyone doesn't instantly laugh at it upon reading perplexes me.

In your OP you referred to that document which is a disgusting blasphemous attack on God, His Church, Our Lady and Our Lord the "Wisdom of the Talmud."

  I was being sarcastic

Certain things ought not to be joked about.

I understand the frustration with (((AEI))), or the depraved Jew (((Prager))) (who recently had an awful interview with Neo Cath Frad and defended pornography. Absolutely disgusting and almost as sickening as his loathsome praise of circumcision with his fellow Tribesman, the sodomite (((Dave Rubin))).

This place is likely one of the most woke on the JQ on the net.

Thus, some things do not need to be sarcastically posted about.
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation. When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

TradGranny

Quote from: Jmartyr on April 02, 2023, 04:46:30 PMDoesn't the Talmud call our Blessed Lady a harlot?

Actually, other passages are  much worse -- so offensive that I'd never quote them.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

LausTibiChriste

I didn't even realize the Talmud was that bad.

Not that I needed another reason for my (((bias))).

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

AlNg

Quote from: Joseph_3 on March 29, 2023, 05:30:00 PMI think it was Sanhedrin 54b that said that bestiality is acceptable as long as it is a young boy committing it.
My reading is that a man older than 9 years old  who commits bestiality is liable for the death penalty. If the person is less than 9 years old, he might not be liable for the death penalty. I don't see where it says that bestiality is acceptable if you are less than 9 years old only that he may not be liable for the death penalty as would be an older man.

benedicite

Quote from: AlNg on March 30, 2023, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:43:05 PMIf you believed the American Enterprise Institute you'd be told in fact these people are the smartest people on earth,
Jews win a lot of Nobel prizes and they excel in many areas. Even Catholics quote the Jewish historian Josephus. At one time some universities had quotas against Jews because there were too many of them qualifying for admission. Now though, American universities and colleges are using various methods to restrict the number of Asians that they admit.

Catholics who quoted Josephus, quoted him as a reference in relation to historical events. He is not a substitute for the Bible and the Catechism.   

TradGranny

#26
Quote from: benedicite on September 03, 2023, 12:26:58 AM
Quote from: AlNg on March 30, 2023, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:43:05 PMIf you believed the American Enterprise Institute you'd be told in fact these people are the smartest people on earth,
Jews win a lot of Nobel prizes and they excel in many areas. Even Catholics quote the Jewish historian Josephus. At one time some universities had quotas against Jews because there were too many of them qualifying for admission. Now though, American universities and colleges are using various methods to restrict the number of Asians that they admit.

Catholics who quoted Josephus, quoted him as a reference in relation to historical events. He is not a substitute for the Bible and the Catechism.   

He is obviously not a substitute for the Bible. Historians focus on examining the works of contemporanious writers. We often hear his name because he is a non-Christian source who corraborates the historical existence of Jesus, and he documents what the early Christians reported. He is often cited by atheist and other secular historians. One example is Will Durant's volume Caesar and Christ: A History of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from Their Beginnings to A.D. 325 from the multi-volume set called the Story of Civilization.

 Durant, who was not a Christian, wrote the following incisive statement in The Story of Civilization, Vol III: Caesar and Christ.

"The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.... The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies, for example Hammurabi, David, Socrates would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. BOLD That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature of the history of Western man." BOLD

bold not working
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

AlNg

Quote from: TradGranny on September 03, 2023, 02:00:59 PMDurant, who was not a Christian
Will Durant may have lost his Catholic faith, but " Born in North Adams, Massachusetts, in 1885, he studied in Catholic parochial schools there and in Kearny, New Jersey. His teachers were nuns, and he practiced his religion so fervently that no one doubted that he would become a priest. In 1900 he entered St. Peter's Academy and College in Jersey City, where his teachers were Jesuits, and, one of these, Father McLaughlin, urged him to enter the Jesuit Order following his graduation in 1907."
https://www.will-durant.com/bio.htm


benedicite

Quote from: TradGranny on September 03, 2023, 02:00:59 PM
Quote from: benedicite on September 03, 2023, 12:26:58 AM
Quote from: AlNg on March 30, 2023, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:43:05 PMIf you believed the American Enterprise Institute you'd be told in fact these people are the smartest people on earth,
Jews win a lot of Nobel prizes and they excel in many areas. Even Catholics quote the Jewish historian Josephus. At one time some universities had quotas against Jews because there were too many of them qualifying for admission. Now though, American universities and colleges are using various methods to restrict the number of Asians that they admit.

Catholics who quoted Josephus, quoted him as a reference in relation to historical events. He is not a substitute for the Bible and the Catechism.   

He is obviously not a substitute for the Bible. Historians focus on examining the works of contemporanious writers. We often hear his name because he is a non-Christian source who corraborates the historical existence of Jesus, and he documents what the early Christians reported. He is often cited by atheist and other secular historians. One example is Will Durant's volume Caesar and Christ: A History of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from Their Beginnings to A.D. 325 from the multi-volume set called the Story of Civilization.

 Durant, who was not a Christian, wrote the following incisive statement in The Story of Civilization, Vol III: Caesar and Christ.

"The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.... The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies, for example Hammurabi, David, Socrates would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. BOLD That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature of the history of Western man." BOLD

bold not working

For me the beginning of Christianity was when the Blessed Virgin said, "Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum" when the angel announced to her that God wanted her to be the Mother of God.

Melkite

Quote from: CatholicStudyAttempt on March 29, 2023, 04:14:44 PM"It has been taught: Abba Benjamin says, If the eye had the power to see them, no creature could endure the demons. Abaye says: They are more numerous than we are and they surround us like the ridge round a field. R. Huna says: Every one among us has a thousand on his left hand and ten thousand on his right hand. Raba says: The crushing in the Kallah lectures comes from them.
Fatigue in the knees comes from them. The wearing out of the clothes of the scholars is due to their rubbing against them. The bruising of the feet comes from them. If one wants to discover them, him take sifted ashes and sprinkle around his bed, and in the morning he will see something like the
footprints of a cock. If one wishes to see them, let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them. Let him also pour it into an
iron tube and seal it with an iron signet that they should not steal it from him. Let him also close his mouth, lest he come to harm. R. Bibi b. Abaye did so, saw them and came to harm. The scholars,however, prayed for him and he recovered."



Witchcraft.