Traditional Catholics and secular culture

[MundaCorMeum]

Time and time again I have seen families take such a harsh stance on the outside world who end up in a worse state than the first. One lady I have known ended up leaving Tradition, starting wearing pants, and eventually leaving the Faith. She was super-staunch and dictated what all the young women should wear. Well, a person can only act this way for such a time. Stretch a rubber band too much and tell me what happens.

You can't do such violence to nature. I am not talking about coddling our fallen human nature. Penance is necessary, prayer is necessary, but so is (true) charity, and so is healthy recreation.

We live in society and we must learn to deal with the outside world with intelligence and humor. What was that famous saying of Chesterton? "The secret of life is laughter and humility". I work with people who are far from the Faith and while I lament that I can't have an intelligent conversation with them about the mystery of the Trinity and the Crisis in the Church, I have to cooperate with them by not putting on some pious front. I can't be a loner at work. If I was not confident in the truth of the Faith, I simply would have joined the hedonism of my peers.

Are we really convinced of the Faith? I am but I need to be humble about it.

the woman started wearing pants?!?!?!?!  *GASPS AND CLUTCHES PEARLS*  oh wait....no......

[Lydia Purpuraria]

If the things you did back when you were a "Jansenist" helped you to detach more from the world, that's great, but detachment from the world means NOTHING if we're not attaching ourselves to God.  We all have things we need to detach from in order to have union with God, but detachment is the means, not the end.  It makes perfect sense to me that the modes of detachment would vary according to time, place, and person, but the end goal is always the same throughout the ages.

In reference to your point that the end goal is the same for all (union with God), from a Catholic perspective, the knowledge of who or what exactly the God is that one is supposed to be "attaching" to is already basically predetermined and set forth by the Church.

So all Catholics then should have the same concept of who God (the "end goal") is, etc. But do they? 

The predestination and theodicy debates within the Church in particular, but not exclusively, make it pretty clear to me anyway that it's not really so cut and dry.  And perhaps this is also part of the reason that there isn't much agreement among traditional Catholics about what is necessary to detach from, and what doesn't matter so much. 

So I suppose the concept of what God even is, is more the question for me these days rather than whatever practices one chooses to engage in or not engage in.  Not that you asked or were even addressing me in your post, or that I've articulated my thoughts very well here (I'm pretty sure I haven't) but just something I was thinking of when I read your post.

What if you could accept that the Church is big enough to accomodate the spirituality you've cultivated for yourself alongside many other ways of living the Gospel?

Weelll, as long as the women are wearing makeup then the Church is big enough to accommodate most any spirituality, right?   

[Greg]

Turns out this thread is superbly popular. Like it's on fire.

"Women in pants" and derivative topics are time-honored and beloved here at SD and its predecessor fora.

Liar liar.

Pants

On fire.

[obscurus]

Time and time again I have seen families take such a harsh stance on the outside world who end up in a worse state than the first. One lady I have known ended up leaving Tradition, starting wearing pants, and eventually leaving the Faith. She was super-staunch and dictated what all the young women should wear. Well, a person can only act this way for such a time. Stretch a rubber band too much and tell me what happens.

You can't do such violence to nature. I am not talking about coddling our fallen human nature. Penance is necessary, prayer is necessary, but so is (true) charity, and so is healthy recreation.

We live in society and we must learn to deal with the outside world with intelligence and humor. What was that famous saying of Chesterton? "The secret of life is laughter and humility". I work with people who are far from the Faith and while I lament that I can't have an intelligent conversation with them about the mystery of the Trinity and the Crisis in the Church, I have to cooperate with them by not putting on some pious front. I can't be a loner at work. If I was not confident in the truth of the Faith, I simply would have joined the hedonism of my peers.

Are we really convinced of the Faith? I am but I need to be humble about it.

the woman started wearing pants?!?!?!?!  *GASPS AND CLUTCHES PEARLS*  oh wait....no......

Haha. I made sure to include that, lol.

[Greg]

Time and time again I have seen families take such a harsh stance on the outside world who end up in a worse state than the first. One lady I have known ended up leaving Tradition, starting wearing pants, and eventually leaving the Faith. She was super-staunch and dictated what all the young women should wear. Well, a person can only act this way for such a time.

No Trad should be taken seriously until they have done at least 10 years without a break in the Trad world.  There's a lot of comers and goers and Johnny Come Latelys.

One should have to serve their time in Tradland before they get a credibility pass.  That would avoid a lot of angst and give the power to people who had, a least, been around the circuit and seen the best laid plans of mice and men fail.  Those people make better judgements and decisions.

[MundaCorMeum]

Time and time again I have seen families take such a harsh stance on the outside world who end up in a worse state than the first. One lady I have known ended up leaving Tradition, starting wearing pants, and eventually leaving the Faith. She was super-staunch and dictated what all the young women should wear. Well, a person can only act this way for such a time.

No Trad should be taken seriously until they have done at least 10 years without a break in the Trad world.  There's a lot of comers and goers and Johnny Come Latelys.

One should have to serve their time in Tradland before they get a credibility pass.  That would avoid a lot of angst and give the power to people who had, a least, been around the circuit and seen the best laid plans of mice and men fail.  Those people make better judgements and decisions.

We will have been "trads" for 9 years this coming June.  So, in a about a year and a half, I'm going to remind you of this, and you will have to start taking me seriously then!  Enjoy your next 17 months....it will pass all too quickly

[Greg]

My novena for the Comet of Chastisement starts tonight.

[MundaCorMeum]

To which saint is that novena said?  Perhaps I'll get my kids on board....they are novena ninjas!

[Mono no aware]

If the things you did back when you were a "Jansenist" helped you to detach more from the world, that's great, but detachment from the world means NOTHING if we're not attaching ourselves to God.  We all have things we need to detach from in order to have union with God, but detachment is the means, not the end.  It makes perfect sense to me that the modes of detachment would vary according to time, place, and person, but the end goal is always the same throughout the ages.  What if you could accept that the Church is big enough to accomodate the spirituality you've cultivated for yourself alongside many other ways of living the Gospel?

I could easily accept that.  I currently accept something even broader: that all things return to their source, and that all souls will return to the Soul.  I was insufficiently clear if I gave the impression that detachment was the end and not the means.  Although it's true that detachment can be aesthetically beautiful in its execution, from a young Quaker girl meditatively peeling potatoes in a barn, to an elderly Buddhist monk calmly sweeping the stone floor of a temple, it is absolutely not the end in and of itself.  I am not an atheist, and I know full well that there are spiritual fruits to contemplation.  That is what I meant when I spoke of having a "mental clarity and focus"—not that I was somehow sharper or intellectually boss, but that I had a keen sense of the ephemeral nature of the world and a kind of "consolation of the spirit," an assurance that there was more to things than just the material.  It was a clarity that caused me not to worry about pointless things so much (which I think probably has something to do with why someone like St. John Chrysostom was perplexed over why Christians could be so fond of vain and useless endeavors).  Anyway, it was probably the closest I ever came to mysticism outside of some mystical experiences I had when I was much younger.

I realize that most traditional Catholics here will probably conclude that my so-called "Jansenism," which they will consider prideful and perverse, opened me up to demonic influence, and that the consolations I received were diabolic trickery.  I understand that.  There is nothing I could possibly say to dissuade anyone from that view, and we will just have to end it at that impasse.  I just wanted to say that it was not the demands of rigorism, or a disordered mind resulting from those demands, that caused me to give it (rigorism) up.  It was just a calm and rational realization that traditional Catholicism was not what I thought it was.  (There were other factors besides just the "Jansenist" issues, of course, but they're not germane to this discussion).  I actually agree with you that a Catholic should not expect their religion to be similar to how it was in the third century.  It is clearly one that changes and evolves over time.  QMR is deadly right about that much, even if no one else sees it.  At any rate, I'm sorry to have sidetracked the discussion, but I have, as I am wont to do, mucked things up as usual.  It wasn't my intention to make this about me and my issues with Catholicism; I just wanted to contribute to an objective discussion of "be not conformed to this world," since I see Early Christianity as probably the most sublime expression of that notion.  So I will bow out at this point—and none too soon, either, as I notice that Jerome himself has returned to the forum, his ban having been lifted.  The thread can now go one of two ways if he decides to weigh in: either Jerome's opponents will rise to the challenge and refute him on his arguments, or things will devolve into a terrible chorus of snark and detraction.

[Kaesekopf]

Pon,

"Results matter" means this.

I am not going to take advice about fatherhood or leading a family from a single man or a bad father.  I will take it from a father who raised 12 children and made them socially well adjusted, happily married people who can pay a mortgage and balance a checkbook.

I am not going to encourage my daughter to marry a man and who cannot provide for her, especially since she is going to have to have a bunch of children.  I don't want her back here.  I don't care how holy he pretends to be.  I want to see a work ethic not some tweed wearing fantasist.  Because families cost money to raise and my daughter is going to be pregnant and dealing with their children for the next 20 years so he's going to be the only breadwinner competing economically against two income households.

A priest or Bishop can say what he likes, but talk is cheap.  Show me fuller churches, a more active parish life, a flourishing youth group, inspiring sermons.  Then I will open my wallet and throw in my support.  I am very reticent to support Father X just because he is Father X and makes the right sounds.

I don't take medical advice from people on the internet.  Give me a double blind clinical trial and a panel of experts telling me the pill works and I will take it.  I am not going to entertain fad diets or other alternative medicine quackery.  If there are statistically significant results then show those to me.

The Catholic Church is failing the world over.  The Muslim religion has delivered nothing for 1000 years.

Delivering positive results today are medicine, technology, sensible Trads who possess good judgement, Russians, Hungarians, Trump etc.

I couldn't give a rats what a bunch of anonymous people say on an Internet forum.  Some of you are massive tossers with screwed up past lives or still living in your mum's basement.  Why should I care what you think about how to live a good Catholic life?

Or Bishop Williamson who for all his tough talk, when the resistance actually broke away and needed him to lead and unite them, decided to retire to the Kentish seaside.

"Results matter" essentially means. Piss or get off the pot.

I have had a lifetime of Trads proffering advice and criticism, telling people how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but who are very poor at supporting practical events to improve the lot of fellow Trads.  The priests are usually weak men who latch onto the carnival barkers and self-promoters and fail the large families who are going to be providing the next generation of parishioners.  Mum and Dad can't spend hours with the priest discussing modesty of dress or the rubrics of 62, because they are raising 11 children.

When do the Jansenist types ever arrange for a really fun day out where young people can socialise in a way that competes with what the secular world can offer?  They never do, because that would expose them to risk and criticism.  They criticise, condemn and complain, but they never construct.

A few pages on, but this is still a good post.  I want it to be seen again. 

[trentcath]

Pon,

"Results matter" means this.

I am not going to take advice about fatherhood or leading a family from a single man or a bad father.  I will take it from a father who raised 12 children and made them socially well adjusted, happily married people who can pay a mortgage and balance a checkbook.

I am not going to encourage my daughter to marry a man and who cannot provide for her, especially since she is going to have to have a bunch of children.  I don't want her back here.  I don't care how holy he pretends to be.  I want to see a work ethic not some tweed wearing fantasist.  Because families cost money to raise and my daughter is going to be pregnant and dealing with their children for the next 20 years so he's going to be the only breadwinner competing economically against two income households.

A priest or Bishop can say what he likes, but talk is cheap.  Show me fuller churches, a more active parish life, a flourishing youth group, inspiring sermons.  Then I will open my wallet and throw in my support.  I am very reticent to support Father X just because he is Father X and makes the right sounds.

I don't take medical advice from people on the internet.  Give me a double blind clinical trial and a panel of experts telling me the pill works and I will take it.  I am not going to entertain fad diets or other alternative medicine quackery.  If there are statistically significant results then show those to me.

The Catholic Church is failing the world over.  The Muslim religion has delivered nothing for 1000 years.

Delivering positive results today are medicine, technology, sensible Trads who possess good judgement, Russians, Hungarians, Trump etc.

I couldn't give a rats what a bunch of anonymous people say on an Internet forum.  Some of you are massive tossers with screwed up past lives or still living in your mum's basement.  Why should I care what you think about how to live a good Catholic life?

Or Bishop Williamson who for all his tough talk, when the resistance actually broke away and needed him to lead and unite them, decided to retire to the Kentish seaside.

"Results matter" essentially means. Piss or get off the pot.

I have had a lifetime of Trads proffering advice and criticism, telling people how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but who are very poor at supporting practical events to improve the lot of fellow Trads.  The priests are usually weak men who latch onto the carnival barkers and self-promoters and fail the large families who are going to be providing the next generation of parishioners.  Mum and Dad can't spend hours with the priest discussing modesty of dress or the rubrics of 62, because they are raising 11 children.

When do the Jansenist types ever arrange for a really fun day out where young people can socialise in a way that competes with what the secular world can offer?  They never do, because that would expose them to risk and criticism.  They criticise, condemn and complain, but they never construct.

A few pages on, but this is still a good post.  I want it to be seen again.

Really? I mean, really...

[james03]

A few pages on, but this is still a good post.  I want it to be seen again.

A close second, but my vote is for "The Comet of Chastisement"^(TM).

[Kaesekopf]

Really? I mean, really...

[Bonaventure]

Pon,

"Results matter" means this.

I am not going to take advice about fatherhood or leading a family from a single man or a bad father.  I will take it from a father who raised 12 children and made them socially well adjusted, happily married people who can pay a mortgage and balance a checkbook.

I am not going to encourage my daughter to marry a man and who cannot provide for her, especially since she is going to have to have a bunch of children.  I don't want her back here.  I don't care how holy he pretends to be.  I want to see a work ethic not some tweed wearing fantasist.  Because families cost money to raise and my daughter is going to be pregnant and dealing with their children for the next 20 years so he's going to be the only breadwinner competing economically against two income households.

A priest or Bishop can say what he likes, but talk is cheap.  Show me fuller churches, a more active parish life, a flourishing youth group, inspiring sermons.  Then I will open my wallet and throw in my support.  I am very reticent to support Father X just because he is Father X and makes the right sounds.

I don't take medical advice from people on the internet.  Give me a double blind clinical trial and a panel of experts telling me the pill works and I will take it.  I am not going to entertain fad diets or other alternative medicine quackery.  If there are statistically significant results then show those to me.

The Catholic Church is failing the world over.  The Muslim religion has delivered nothing for 1000 years.

Delivering positive results today are medicine, technology, sensible Trads who possess good judgement, Russians, Hungarians, Trump etc.

I couldn't give a rats what a bunch of anonymous people say on an Internet forum.  Some of you are massive tossers with screwed up past lives or still living in your mum's basement.  Why should I care what you think about how to live a good Catholic life?

Or Bishop Williamson who for all his tough talk, when the resistance actually broke away and needed him to lead and unite them, decided to retire to the Kentish seaside.

"Results matter" essentially means. Piss or get off the pot.

I have had a lifetime of Trads proffering advice and criticism, telling people how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but who are very poor at supporting practical events to improve the lot of fellow Trads.  The priests are usually weak men who latch onto the carnival barkers and self-promoters and fail the large families who are going to be providing the next generation of parishioners.  Mum and Dad can't spend hours with the priest discussing modesty of dress or the rubrics of 62, because they are raising 11 children.

When do the Jansenist types ever arrange for a really fun day out where young people can socialise in a way that competes with what the secular world can offer?  They never do, because that would expose them to risk and criticism.  They criticise, condemn and complain, but they never construct.

A few pages on, but this is still a good post.  I want it to be seen again.

Really? I mean, really...

Unless you or someone else can substantially refute what he's saying, yeah.

[Bonaventure]

Time and time again I have seen families take such a harsh stance on the outside world who end up in a worse state than the first. One lady I have known ended up leaving Tradition, starting wearing pants, and eventually leaving the Faith. She was super-staunch and dictated what all the young women should wear. Well, a person can only act this way for such a time.

No Trad should be taken seriously until they have done at least 10 years without a break in the Trad world.  There's a lot of comers and goers and Johnny Come Latelys.

One should have to serve their time in Tradland before they get a credibility pass.  That would avoid a lot of angst and give the power to people who had, a least, been around the circuit and seen the best laid plans of mice and men fail.  Those people make better judgements and decisions.

Yep. I vividly recall many people who burned out, are now orthodox, home alone, weirdo everyone is damned sede, or lost the Faith entirely. For many, I don't blame them.