Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

[awkwardcustomer]

JP II wanted to mention Russia in the 1984 consecration but his advisors said that it would upset Russia ...

This is hardly a ringing endorsement of Fatima though.  JPII wanted to mention Russia, despite the clear instructions of the apparition.  Did he truly believe in Fatima?

And all his advisors had to do was warn him that merely mentioning Russia would upset the ecumenical apple-cart.

There's nothing like putting earthly considerations before heavenly imperatives to reveal a lack of committment to the cause.

[awkwardcustomer]

or marching around the walls of Jericho...(veggie tails does a great job at getting you to see how crazy that sounded to Joshua and his men)

Moses was supposed to speak to the rock and thought he knew better than God so he hit the rock instead and was not allowed to enter the promised land.

How about Adam and Eve, specific instructions not followed with pretty terrible consequences......

No one of these individuals was a Pope.

I was just chiming in on more "ridiculous" requests from God in scripture.

Yes, but none of the "ridiculous" requests from God in Scripture were made to a Pope.

The Pope is the Supreme Pontiff.  Moses wasn't.

[Gardener]

Moreover, they were made directly by God to the individual and did not prima facie, or even essentially, contradict that which God had already said to do or had given authority therein.

[Gerard]

... I have yet to see anyone actually point out exactly how I'm wrong on the coercion of the Pope in Fatima.  I'm open to it, it simply has to be something more substantial than, "you're wrong!"
...

Oh come on Gerard.  Nobody is just saying "you're wrong" about this.  You have been told time and time again that if the Popes thought Our Lady of Fatima's request for a consecration of Russia undermined the papacy then the Popes would not have attempted the consecration.  So clearly the Popes did not and do not think the request to consecrate Russia undermines the papacy.  You have not addressed this, so you are the one that is simply saying "you're wrong".  We are in an endless circle simply because you are not listening.  And because you are not listening that is why I suggested that you go talk to a priest about it.  It's just all in your mind Gerard.

Not so. I've demonstrated numerous times that the "carrot" and "stick" coercive tactic is baked into the consecration part of the Fatima message.  People simply denying that aspect and refusing to prove me wrong.

I'm also saying that the "attempted" consecrations by the Popes were ultimately prevented by the Holy Ghost, either through a movement of grace or illumination or simply the fact that the liberal Popes are too wilely about personal power and they recognize an attempt to co-opt papal power more readily than a "conservative" pope would. 

[Gerard]

Moreover, they were made directly by God to the individual and did not prima facie, or even essentially, contradict that which God had already said to do or had given authority therein.

They were also direct warnings about something inevitable or they addressed problems that manifested themselves already.  They didn't make conditional threats based on how a particular person would react to their demands. 

[mikemac]

or marching around the walls of Jericho...(veggie tails does a great job at getting you to see how crazy that sounded to Joshua and his men)

Moses was supposed to speak to the rock and thought he knew better than God so he hit the rock instead and was not allowed to enter the promised land.

How about Adam and Eve, specific instructions not followed with pretty terrible consequences......

No one of these individuals was a Pope.

I was just chiming in on more "ridiculous" requests from God in scripture.

Yes, but none of the "ridiculous" requests from God in Scripture were made to a Pope.

The Pope is the Supreme Pontiff.  Moses wasn't.

I don't know how to break it to you, but there were no popes back in those days.  Although Moses and the other leaders that Traditionallyruralmom mentions were the leaders in their time of the Church to come, you know like a Pope.

[awkwardcustomer]

or marching around the walls of Jericho...(veggie tails does a great job at getting you to see how crazy that sounded to Joshua and his men)

Moses was supposed to speak to the rock and thought he knew better than God so he hit the rock instead and was not allowed to enter the promised land.

How about Adam and Eve, specific instructions not followed with pretty terrible consequences......

No one of these individuals was a Pope.

I was just chiming in on more "ridiculous" requests from God in scripture.

Yes, but none of the "ridiculous" requests from God in Scripture were made to a Pope.

The Pope is the Supreme Pontiff.  Moses wasn't.

I don't know how to break it to you, but there were no popes back in those days.  Although Moses and the other leaders that Traditionallyruralmom mentions were the leaders in their time of the Church to come, you know like a Pope.

That's the point I'm making.  The Pope, as Supreme Pontiff, as Christ's Vicar on Earth, as the holder of the Keys, has a Divinely appointed authority that Moses and the other leaders didn't, couldn't, posess.

Therefore the comparisons don't work. 

[Michael Wilson]

But Moses' authority was as great as the Pope's; he was not only the vicar of God, and ruled the people of God; he spoke directly with God (which no Pope has claimed); so the comparison does hold.

[Gerard]

But Moses' authority was as great as the Pope's; he was not only the vicar of God, and ruled the people of God; he spoke directly with God (which no Pope has claimed); so the comparison does hold.

So, did someone come up to Moses with a deal concerning an event like Fatima did? 

A shepherd boy tells Moses that he's seen an apparition of St. Michael that says that God wants Moses to do X to avoid a calamity that is not present but only the apparition is predicting?  And if Moses doesn't do what the boy says the apparition wants, nations will fall and Moses himself with suffer greatly?  But if Moses does do what the apparition wants, everyone gets a fast car and a day at the spa?

[awkwardcustomer]

But Moses' authority was as great as the Pope's; he was not only the vicar of God, and ruled the people of God; he spoke directly with God (which no Pope has claimed); so the comparison does hold.

Was Moses the 'vicar of God'?  I've never heard that before.

[Michael Wilson]

But Moses' authority was as great as the Pope's; he was not only the vicar of God, and ruled the people of God; he spoke directly with God (which no Pope has claimed); so the comparison does hold.

Was Moses the 'vicar of God'?  I've never heard that before.

It wasn't his official title, I just decided to call him that for the effect. Ha! But seriously, he interviews God all the time and gets personal messages from Him, and he is the "go to guy" if you want to have God answer any question, such as: "How come there isn't any water?" or "How do we cure snake bite?" etc.

[Gardener]

I would agree with Michael that Moses was a prototype of the Pope. However, the comparison fails once one looks at the particulars of the chain of custody in Fatima for the information vs how Moses was dealt with by God: directly.

[awkwardcustomer]

Sr Lucy deceived the Church into approving the 1917 apparitions at Fatima.

An absurdity. A poor uneducated shepherdess is not likely to trick trained theologians, Priests and exorcists. If she was misled by the devil, the signs of that would be evident. Instead theologians soon and quite unanimously pronounced it of supernatural origin; many Popes confirmed the judgment. It is irreformable, safe and morally certain.

Sr Lucy was under oath when she withheld both the Secrets and the Angel apparitions from the Canonical Enquiry into Fatima.   

The Fatima approval only covers the apparitions that took place in the Cova da Iria in 1917.   It doesn't include the Secrets or the Angel apparitions because Sr Lucy didn't reveal these until after the approval had been given in 1930

She explains all this in her third and fourth memoirs.  Have you read them?

Her reason for not revealing everything she knew about Fatima during the enquiry was that she was acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Can you name one other visionary who has withheld vital information from the Church on the instructions of the Holy Spirit?

Incidentally, Sr Lucy's family was not poor.  And I think you underestimate the intelligence of those who live off the land.

[awkwardcustomer]

I would agree with Michael that Moses was a prototype of the Pope. However, the comparison fails once one looks at the particulars of the chain of custody in Fatima for the information vs how Moses was dealt with by God: directly.

A prototype of the Pope, okay, but did Moses have the authority of a Pope, or the charism of infallibility.

I don't think the comparison holds, and besides it's a favourite tactic of the madman/cult leader/ fanatic to point to well known scriptural examples of prophets who have been disbelieved.  You know how it goes.

I am the son of god.  You don't believe me.  They didn't believe Jesus Christ either.

I am a prophet of the most high.  You don't believe me.  Prophets are never believed.

That kind of thing.   

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.