To what are you currently listening?

[rbjmartin]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEyezu7G20[/yt]

[Mono no aware]

It's pretty clear that they distinctly held themselves apart from the world, and that they had a disdain for crass secular amusements.  Their faith was not purely creedal—it was not just some intellectual assent to a series of doctrines while their behaviors remained almost indistinguishable from their heathen neighbors.  No; their faith was thoroughly lived out in nearly every aspect of their lives.  "Pray without ceasing."  They had an approach to faith that we today can only stand in awe of. 

This is how we would like to imagine the days of the Christian martyrs under the Roman Empire.
But do we have much evidence to indicate that was really the case?

I was just reading "Callista" by John Henry Newman, and the picture that he paints is quite different. He depicts very lax Christians divided into sectarian camps who have almost forgotten their faith until the persecution comes along.

There were, of course, lax Christians from the very beginning.  Even the letters of St. Paul are not without the occasional lament that some self-professed followers of Christ are still clinging to a pharisaical model.  And many of the Early Church Fathers scolded their flocks for laxity.  So it must've persisted among them to some extent.  But the best evidence for how a majority of Early Christians behaved can be found in the accounts of their critics, the Romans who observed them: Pliny, Galen, Celsus, &c.  Almost to a one, they describe a religion whose followers stubbornly held themselves apart from the world.  Even the emperor Julian, who wrote relatively late in antiquity and was especially hostile to Christianity, nevertheless had to admit that "these godless Galileans," as he called them, surpassed the pagans in their selflessness, detachment, and compassion.  None of them really described a religion of partiers or worldlings.  And these writers had a prejudice.

[Mono no aware]

well what would of been the equivalent of rock music at the time? my money's on some kind of ethnic/folk music or something. of course they would of listened to it at times, when people were singing songs or wahtever.

It depends on whether those songs were of a crass nature, and whether they were heard incidentally or sought out deliberately.  But if you want, you can certainly look up what the Early Church Fathers had to say about secular amusements.  There's an excellent Catholic blogger who's making a compendium of Early Church teachings by subject.  I looked up the entry for entertainment and dancing.  St. Justin Martyr taught that Christians should avoid "flutes which provoke to lustful movements," which sounds like he's talking about the first century equivalent of rock n' roll (that is, music which appeals to the base passions).  St. Ambrose wondered "what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"  St. John Chrysostom said the righteous person "will never so much as allow the existence either of dances, or of immodest songs."  And St. Augustine, not surprisingly, offers a taut aphorism: "our rest is from evil works, theirs from good; it is better to plough than to dance."  So that's four major Church Fathers for you right there.  Nothing to sneeze at.

i don't get the absurdity.

Well, it's pretty basic.  It is absurd to belong to a religion in which you are called to "be not conformed to this world" and yet (at the same time) listen to music which is worldly in every respect.  That is frankly absurd.  I will grant you, of course, that absurdity is in the eye of the beholder.  Perhaps there are many people who would say that there is no incongruity in being "dead to sin, and alive unto God" and meanwhile listening to "when I'm pimpin' you know I'm pimpin'."  Personally, I find it ridiculous.  (And comical, I should add.  It is not without comedic value).  To each their own, though.

[Mono no aware]

you also can't have "youth cultire" in a time when many teens where getting married and starting families.  teenagers were needed to care for siblings do heavy chores and learn trades. hard to be fanatical about the latrs dance craze when you're trying to survive even when the martyrdom threat level is green or yellow

And yet somehow, the Early Church Fathers still found it necessary to address the topic of wanton dancing, and music which appealed to the base passions.  "There is nothing new under the sun."

[Arun]

well what would of been the equivalent of rock music at the time? my money's on some kind of ethnic/folk music or something. of course they would of listened to it at times, when people were singing songs or wahtever.

It depends on whether those songs were of a crass nature, and whether they were heard incidentally or sought out deliberately.  But if you want, you can certainly look up what the Early Church Fathers had to say about secular amusements.  There's an excellent Catholic blogger who's making a compendium of Early Church teachings by subject.  I looked up the entry for entertainment and dancing.  St. Justin Martyr taught that Christians should avoid "flutes which provoke to lustful movements," which sounds like he's talking about the first century equivalent of rock n' roll (that is, music which appeals to the base passions).  St. Ambrose wondered "what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"  St. John Chrysostom said the righteous person "will never so much as allow the existence either of dances, or of immodest songs."  And St. Augustine, not surprisingly, offers a taut aphorism: "our rest is from evil works, theirs from good; it is better to plough than to dance."  So that's four major Church Fathers for you right there.  Nothing to sneeze at.

i don't get the absurdity.

Well, it's pretty basic.  It is absurd to belong to a religion in which you are called to "be not conformed to this world" and yet (at the same time) listen to music which is worldly in every respect.  That is frankly absurd.  I will grant you, of course, that absurdity is in the eye of the beholder.  Perhaps there are many people who would say that there is no incongruity in being "dead to sin, and alive unto God" and meanwhile listening to "when I'm pimpin' you know I'm pimpin'."  Personally, I find it ridiculous.  (And comical, I should add.  It is not without comedic value).  To each their own, though.

You don't even know the context in which that's being said for starters. But OK whatever man, shall I cancel my Catholic membership card now? Ffs..

sent from a cheap Asian phone using Crapatalk

[Mono no aware]

You don't even know the context in which that's being said for starters.

I listened to the song.  It was torture, but I did it.  That line doesn't appear to be in the context of regret.  He claims he's still "pimpin" and drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon ("no sippin"), present tense.  It could, I concede, be something else entirely.  Maybe it's even some kind of clever satire, and his whole schtick is to poke fun at Southern white-boy hip-hoppers.  It wouldn't matter.  It's still crass.

But OK whatever man, shall I cancel my Catholic membership card now? Ffs..

No, of course not.  You could just admit that you've been appealing to your own authority on this thread.  I've cited, so far, a pair of pre-Vatican II bishops (from the 1950s who were specifically addressing rock n' roll), as well as St. Francis de Sales, St. Thomas Aquinas, and several Early Church Fathers.  As far as I can tell, the only serious argument in favor of rock n' roll is simply a negative one: the fact that it hasn't yet been magisterially condemned.

[Arun]

You... You know he's not referring to literal pimping, right?? Like he's not running a stable of whores lol.

Song is about how we keep connect to our roots all through life but we change and grow too. Is that a bad message, is it? OK then.

I have an idea though, let's all climb up on high horses and sneer at people for not doing religion right according to you... Hahaha.


ETA: I once knew this guy at my parish, was mates with him in fact, and he was obsessive over what kind of music was in my home. He'd come around and go through our CD's up on the rack and prattle on and on about what we should and shouldn't listen to. That same man was spending half his time trying to convince teenaged boys in the schola to let him perform oral sex on them.

I'm not saying your a faggot or anything, but the point i'm making is that guy outwardly conformed completelty to what people's idea of an ideal Trad Catholic man was, dressed the right way, spoke and acted the right way, listened to the right music... and all the while he was committing a sin which cries to Heaven for vengeance. but yeah, yeah me listening to music is way more worser bro... um, no.

sent from a cheap Asian phone using Crapatalk

[Mono no aware]

You... You know he's not referring to literal pimping, right?? Like he's not running a stable of whores lol.

Song is about how we keep connect to our roots all through life but we change and grow too. Is that a bad message, is it? OK then.

As I said, I could not tell for sure what he was talking about, since he employs a "wigger" patois with which I am unfamiliar.  For all I know, the song might indeed have a positive message.  "When I'm pimpin you know I'm pimpin" nevertheless seems to be an expression falling short of Christian decorum.  It's like that rapping Franciscan friar guy, Fr. Stan Fortuna.  I'm sure his songs have positive (and possibly even Christocentric) themes.  The problem is with the delivery and the wording.  It just makes him look like an ass, lamely appropriating a crass and worldly musical form.

I have an idea though, let's all climb up on high horses and sneer at people for not doing religion right according to you... Hahaha.

That's not what I'm doing.  I'm wondering if there are any good arguments in favor of rock n' roll.  (It would be nice if there were).  But everyone here seems to think rock n' roll is okay on the grounds that they find rock n' roll to be okay, and that is a circuitous argument.  So I must play the devil's advocate (or is it the other way around?).  And again, I'm not appealing to my own authority here ("sneering at people for not doing religion right according to me").  I have been citing other authorities.  If you take exception to St. Thomas Aquinas or St. John Chrysostom or any of the others I've mentioned, that's up to you.

[Chestertonian]

being in the world and not of the world is a messy thing sometimes

when icome into contact with secular people, i am a class-A religious nutter-butter, who wants to control womens bodies and force them to birth babies theydont want...an intolerant bigot who hates gay people, a delusional fruit loop who talks to an invisible deity and attends mass in a dead language i dont understand.  i am the religious fanatic who insists on attending mass every day and wants you to transport him there too.  i am a compassionless monster who thinks couples who want to manufacture children in a lab shouldnt be allowed do that, and i am a judgy meaniepants who thinks terminally ill people should not be allowed to be killed off by their relatives or allowed to kill themselves.  i am the weirdo who wants his child homeschooled because the public schools are a spiritual health hazard.  i am the school dance chaperone who thinks you should leave some room for the holy spirit, and the patriarchal sexist teacher in the hall that reports you for violating the dress code because your tank top reveals your bare shoulders

but when i come into contact with trads, I am the pagan who likes Dream Theater, and playing guitar.  i am the wishy washy one who thinks that when someone admits to having same sex attraction, maybe chasing them away with pitchforks and yelling "out, damn sodomite!" is notthe best course of action.  i am the neo-cath who is perfectly fine with the fact that my wife has short hair, because she is not a "free and leisured mother".  i am the worldling who has not shunned every non-catholic relative, because they are the ones who love me enough to give me sponge baths and do all sorts of unmentionable activities of daily living...

so if challenged to a trad-cred pissing contest i will likely lose. in the end, the only judge i have is our lord, may He be merciful

[Arun]

You... You know he's not referring to literal pimping, right?? Like he's not running a stable of whores lol.

Song is about how we keep connect to our roots all through life but we change and grow too. Is that a bad message, is it? OK then.

As I said, I could not tell for sure what he was talking about, since he employs a "wigger" patois with which I am unfamiliar.  For all I know, the song might indeed have a positive message.  "When I'm pimpin you know I'm pimpin" nevertheless seems to be an expression falling short of Christian decorum.  It's like that rapping Franciscan friar guy, Fr. Stan Fortuna.  I'm sure his songs have positive (and possibly even Christocentric) themes.  The problem is with the delivery and the wording.  It just makes him look like an ass, lamely appropriating a crass and worldly musical form.

I have an idea though, let's all climb up on high horses and sneer at people for not doing religion right according to you... Hahaha.

That's not what I'm doing.  I'm wondering if there are any good arguments in favor of rock n' roll.  (It would be nice if there were).  But everyone here seems to think rock n' roll is okay on the grounds that they find rock n' roll to be okay, and that is a circuitous argument.  So I must play the devil's advocate.  And again, I'm not appealing to my own authority here ("sneering at people for not doing religion right according to me").  I have been citing other authorities.  If you take exception to St. Thomas Aquinas or St. John Chrysostom or any of the other I've mentioned, that's up to you.

i don't take exception but i'm going to need to look at those sources myself and view them in context, not in somebody else's quote which they've made in support of their opinion. and that's going to take awhile because i don't read real good.

fwiw, Yelawolf isn't exactly the "wigger" type man. and if you listened to the whole song, what did you think about that last part? also this music isn't rock and roll. i don't even think i listen to any rock and roll, no chuck berry in my collection. metal, maybe a bit of dubstep/metalstep, little bit of hip hop, some classical spanish guitar stuff, blues, bluegrass, that's mostly it. no rock and roll.

[Mono no aware]

ETA: I once knew this guy at my parish, was mates with him in fact, and he was obsessive over what kind of music was in my home. He'd come around and go through our CD's up on the rack and prattle on and on about what we should and shouldn't listen to. That same man was spending half his time trying to convince teenaged boys in the schola to let him perform oral sex on them.

I'm not saying your a faggot or anything, but the point i'm making is that guy outwardly conformed completelty to what people's idea of an ideal Trad Catholic man was, dressed the right way, spoke and acted the right way, listened to the right music... and all the while he was committing a sin which cries to Heaven for vengeance. but yeah, yeah me listening to music is way more worser bro... um, no.

Well, I guess it's good to know that you're "not saying I'm a faggot or anything."   

The story itself proves nothing, however, except that people can be hypocritical.  (That person probably would've taken exception to my own CD collection, which is 90% rock).  But the argument in favor of rock n' roll cannot rest on whether some pedophile had an opinion.  That's fallacious.

[Arun]

ETA: I once knew this guy at my parish, was mates with him in fact, and he was obsessive over what kind of music was in my home. He'd come around and go through our CD's up on the rack and prattle on and on about what we should and shouldn't listen to. That same man was spending half his time trying to convince teenaged boys in the schola to let him perform oral sex on them.

I'm not saying your a faggot or anything, but the point i'm making is that guy outwardly conformed completelty to what people's idea of an ideal Trad Catholic man was, dressed the right way, spoke and acted the right way, listened to the right music... and all the while he was committing a sin which cries to Heaven for vengeance. but yeah, yeah me listening to music is way more worser bro... um, no.

Well, I guess it's good to know that you're "not saying I'm a faggot or anything."   

The story itself proves nothing, however, except that people can be hypocritical.  (That person probably would've taken exception to my own CD collection, which is 90% rock).  But the argument in favor of rock n' roll cannot rest on whether some pedophile had an opinion.  That's fallacious.

yeah, nah, that's not my point at all. my point, although i didn't really make it i guess - my kids are sparring right now so i need to keep an eye on them as i type and i wrapped up the post too quick - is that the critical aspect is the internal things not so much the external things. for me, myself personally, my "argument" in favour of the music that i listen to is summed in that we are supposed to use the things of this world inasmuch as they contribute to our salvation. well, funnily enough, the music i listen to actually helps me to keep grounded and keep running in the right direction as opposed to living like i have done in the past. but that's a subjective issue, it may be different for other people. i can't comment on that.

[Lynne]

It's pretty clear that they distinctly held themselves apart from the world, and that they had a disdain for crass secular amusements.  Their faith was not purely creedal—it was not just some intellectual assent to a series of doctrines while their behaviors remained almost indistinguishable from their heathen neighbors.  No; their faith was thoroughly lived out in nearly every aspect of their lives.  "Pray without ceasing."  They had an approach to faith that we today can only stand in awe of. 

This is how we would like to imagine the days of the Christian martyrs under the Roman Empire.
But do we have much evidence to indicate that was really the case?

I was just reading "Callista" by John Henry Newman, and the picture that he paints is quite different. He depicts very lax Christians divided into sectarian camps who have almost forgotten their faith until the persecution comes along.

You could read/listen to Fabiola or the Church of the Catacombs. Wonderful book!

http://librivox.org/fabiola-or-the-church-of-the-catacombs-by-cardinal-nicholas-patrick-wiseman/

From wikipedia:

Wiseman wrote Fabiola in part as an answer to the vigorously anti-Catholic book Hypatia (1853) by Charles Kingsley.[1][2] The novel was mainly aimed at the embattled Catholic minority in England, who had recently emerged from a half-illegal status (the Catholic hierarchy in England had been re-established only in 1850).

The story thus constantly stresses the close-knit community of the early Christians, their love for each other, their solidarity strong sense of communion. At the same time, direct references to the present situation of Catholics in England are relatively rare, especially when compared to John Henry Newman's Callista (1855), which was commissioned as a sort of "prequel" to Fabiola. Still, the heroic language in which the tales of the martyrs are told obviously aims at strengthening the courage and determination of Catholics in England. The educational side of the book is also important: several chapters digress on historical information about worship and burial in the catacombs.

[Rose]

Just adding my (admittedly uneducated as regards the Faith in this area) opinion...

I consider myself to be a fair "middle-grounder", and my ideas about music have changed a lot since I was a teenager (which wasn't that long ago). I was happy to listen to just about anything (including Eminem and his like) when I was in my first, non-trad school, and I decided the vulgar content wasn't really in keeping with a Catholic outlook so stopped listening to the rap side of things. Then when I was at trad school I had a complete break from all the pop, rock and rap music I used to listen to (it wasn't allowed) and going back to it made me see (hear?) it in a different light. I could see where the arguments against "base rhythms" made sense. You can just sense it somehow. I'm not saying that everything remotely "modern" is bad, or that I don't like a great many "popular" groups/artists around today. I just think that there are a great many areas in modern, media-promoted music (as with everything else) that we have to be really careful about as Catholics. It's obvious that many/most MTV/Vevo promoted music "pop" videos rely on the "eye candy" factor and play heavily on impure themes/images. But there's also the more subtle elements which PdR mentioned (and which I completely admit I can't argue from a musician's perspective) which are playing on the senses with the music itself.

Case in point: Muse. My favourite band, actually, I love their stuff, but I choose not to listen to them now, because some of their songs don't quite feel right. I don't know how to explain it exactly, except that there's something a little unsavory about them.

And yes, Chestertonian, I know exactly where you're coming from

[piabee]

Case in point: Muse. My favourite band, actually, I love their stuff, but I choose not to listen to them now, because some of their songs don't quite feel right. I don't know how to explain it exactly, except that there's something a little unsavory about them.

They do have anti-religious sentiments in a few songs.