Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will

Started by Justin Martyr, July 15, 2021, 08:44:29 PM

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Michael Wilson

#30
July 17, 2021, 04:23:59 PM
J.M. Be assured that Our Lord Jesus Christ did not suffer and die for us in order to pretend to desire all men to be saved, while really depriving them of the necessary means to do so (as the Banezians would have it); on the contrary, Pope Pius XII in "Haurietis Aquas" (On devotion to the Sacred Heart), assures us that God sends to men an "abundance of divine graces":
Fr. Most. Op.Cit. 32:
QuoteTherefore, unless God were to multiply miracles to an immense degree, it will be necessary to assign may humans to places with few if any sacraments. To those in such places, God does send many graces, for, as Pope Pius XII taught, it is certain that, the heavenly Father.....will at all times send down upon all men a rich abundance of divine graces." In assigning men to places in which they have the proximate opportunity of entering the Church, God does not let merits be the controlling principle. He acts according to other principles. He gives the faith and entrance into the Church in the full sense to all who receive the proximate opportunity of entry and who do not resist the graces offered. However, if they resist, at least ordinarily, God will not move them against their resistance.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

james03

#31
July 23, 2021, 10:08:42 AM
Condemned by Pius V:

Quote1027 27. Free will, without the help of God's grace, has only power for sin.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Justin Martyr

#32
July 23, 2021, 01:35:42 PM
Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 10:08:42 AM
Condemned by Pius V:

Quote1027 27. Free will, without the help of God's grace, has only power for sin.

Can I get the latin? I want to see if the word for power is the same word for potency.

Also, I never stated it has only power for sin. Free will in and of itself (as the name free means) is able to choose the good. Whether or not it actually does, in fact, without God's grace is another issue entirely. I have the power to saw my arm off, but I will never choose to do so.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

james03

#33
July 23, 2021, 05:42:25 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 05:49:55 PM by james03
See Pope St. Pius V: Ex omnibus afflictionibus

QuoteWhether or not it actually does,
St. Thomas addresses this.  Yes, the man in his natural state does good works.  It has no bearing on election, but it is reasonable to believe a peaceful hindoo who looks after his family will be better off in the place of the dead (hell) than an unrepentant Pelosi.  I'm guessing you are talking about acts pleasing to God, in which case Grace is the First Cause of the good work and also the First Cause of the merit.

Quotein fact, without God's grace is another issue entirely.
Sanctifying Grace, unless you believe in imputed justification, regenerates the man, brings the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, and infuses him with Charity, such that his acts are pleasing to God and are deserving of Congruent merit.  The actual grace is also the First Cause of the good act.  However, the decision to cooperate is Free.


"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

#34
July 23, 2021, 05:44:34 PM
Bears a repost:

Quote from: de veritateBut man, judging about his course of action by the power of reason, can also judge about his own decision inasmuch as he knows the meaning of an end and of a means to an end, and the relationship of the one with reference to the other. Thus he is his own cause not only in moving but also in judging. He is therefore endowed with free choice—that is to say, with a free judgment about acting or not acting.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Justin Martyr

#35
July 23, 2021, 06:15:56 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 06:17:47 PM by Justin Martyr
Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 05:42:25 PM
See Pope St. Pius V: Ex omnibus afflictionibus

QuoteWhether or not it actually does,
St. Thomas addresses this.  Yes, the man in his natural state does good works.  It has no bearing on election, but it is reasonable to believe a peaceful hindoo who looks after his family will be better off in the place of the dead (hell) than an unrepentant Pelosi.  I'm guessing you are talking about acts pleasing to God, in which case Grace is the First Cause of the good work and also the First Cause of the merit.

Quotein fact, without God's grace is another issue entirely.
Sanctifying Grace, unless you believe in imputed justification, regenerates the man, brings the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, and infuses him with Charity, such that his acts are pleasing to God and are deserving of Congruent merit.  The actual grace is also the First Cause of the good act.  However, the decision to cooperate is Free.

I affirm all of this. The only caveat I'd have is that, while man is able to do (non-salvific) good works and avoid any particular mortal sin unassisted by grace; in reality, God is so gracious that there is never a moment where he is not supporting us by his grace to do such things. The same would apply for those in a state of grace. The only time I would say God withholds sufficient grace is when a man is obstinate in his sins, and he only does this so that the man can see he is in error and repent.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Justin Martyr

#36
July 23, 2021, 06:21:16 PM
Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 05:44:34 PM
Bears a repost:

Quote from: de veritateBut man, judging about his course of action by the power of reason, can also judge about his own decision inasmuch as he knows the meaning of an end and of a means to an end, and the relationship of the one with reference to the other. Thus he is his own cause not only in moving but also in judging. He is therefore endowed with free choice—that is to say, with a free judgment about acting or not acting.

I affirm this as well. Free Will and God's efficient grace are not opposed, but always co-operate; and, the will co-operates freely. Likewise, Free Will and sufficient grace are not opposed either. Man simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace. Just like how, I hold it is possible for one to be saved outside the visible bounds of the Church, but that (aside from Catechumens prior to baptism who have perfect contrition), none are in fact saved outside the Church's visible bounds. The example of me sawing off my arm is illustrative to this point. What is possible is different from what actually occurs.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

james03

#37
July 23, 2021, 06:43:37 PM
This is the part that I don't understand.  What is the motivation for putting up such a convoluted system of insufficient grace/efficacious grace?  Every grace God gives is efficacious in that it accomplishes its purpose.  Put a consideration for hell in your imagination, you will have a consideration of hell.

The only possible, (and I'm stretching on "possible"), motivation is to avoid a situation where God is in our debt.  But let's review:  The reason you can have merit is because of the free gift of Sanctifying Grace (do I need to even continue?).  And this Grace itself was merited by the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus.  Your ability to do good works at a supernatural level is motivated by Charity, which again comes about due to your election, which is only due to God's Sovereign Will.  Furthermore, the reason you did the good act is because God gave you an Actual Grace.  So the "putting God in your debt" doesn't even get off the ground.

The only other motivations are a belief in imputed righteousness and the dung pile covered with snow.

And counter to this is the teaching of Trent, that you truly merit when you do good works. 

So what is the motivation for this convoluted system?  What is the perceived error that you are trying to avoid?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Justin Martyr

#38
July 23, 2021, 07:03:15 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 07:06:27 PM by Justin Martyr
Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 06:43:37 PM
This is the part that I don't understand.  What is the motivation for putting up such a convoluted system of insufficient grace/efficacious grace?  Every grace God gives is efficacious in that it accomplishes its purpose.  Put a consideration for hell in your imagination, you will have a consideration of hell.

The only possible, (and I'm stretching on "possible"), motivation is to avoid a situation where God is in our debt.  But let's review:  The reason you can have merit is because of the free gift of Sanctifying Grace (do I need to even continue?).  And this Grace itself was merited by the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus.  Your ability to do good works at a supernatural level is motivated by Charity, which again comes about due to your election, which is only due to God's Sovereign Will.  Furthermore, the reason you did the good act is because God gave you an Actual Grace.  So the "putting God in your debt" doesn't even get off the ground.

The only other motivations are a belief in imputed righteousness and the dung pile covered with snow.

And counter to this is the teaching of Trent, that you truly merit when you do good works. 

So what is the motivation for this convoluted system?  What is the perceived error that you are trying to avoid?

For myself, my motivation is because I find the distinction accords with Scripture, the Pre-Tridentine (really, Pre-Jesuit) tradition of the Church, Saint Augustine and (more importantly) Saint Thomas. Fr. Garrigou-Langrange lays out other theological reasons for it quite well in his "Reality: A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought". I affirm quite strongly that we truly merit when we do good works (along with the rest of the Council of Trent), and deny quite vehemently the errors of Calvin and Luther (such as man as snow covered dung, imputed righteousness, limited atonement, that the fall destroyed man's freewill, that in every act man sins, etc).

We should also keep in mind the following, as decreed by Pope Paul V in order to end the De Auxiliis Controversy:

"In the affair concerning the aids [of grace], the supreme pontiff granted to both the disputants and their consultants permission to return to their countries or houses: it is also added that His Holiness will promulgate, at an opportune time, the anticipated declaration and decision. Nevertheless, it is most strictly forbidden by the same Most Holy Lord that, in treating this subject, anyone should judge or censure in any way his opposing party... Rather, he wishes that [both sides] mutually abstain from harsh words expressing bitterness of spirit."

If I have violated this decree in any way, I sincerely apologize to y'all.

As a side note, I really wish Vatican I or II had given us a definitive answer to this issue.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Michael Wilson

#39
July 23, 2021, 07:15:29 PM
J.M.
Give Fr. Most's book "Grace, Predestination, and God's universal salvific will". He responds to a lot of questions you have.
you can read it online here:
Or buy it on Amazon pretty reasonably priced. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Justin Martyr

#40
July 23, 2021, 07:18:10 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on July 23, 2021, 07:15:29 PM
J.M.
Give Fr. Most's book "Grace, Predestination, and God's universal salvific will". He responds to a lot of questions you have.
you can read it online here:
Or buy it on Amazon pretty reasonably priced. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214

I'll have to check it out. I've been interested in Fr. Most's position for a while.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Michael Wilson

#41
July 24, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
J.M.
That link above is for his book online.
Also, I think you will like his approach; he does not argue against Banezians with Molinist arguments; he also argues against Molinists, but not with Banezian arguments (which both of us have heard); he has "a pox on both your houses" approach.
He is very convincing. His starting point as opposed to the "classical" approach is "God's universal salvific will"; he believes by attacking the problem from a purely philosophical angle, is what lead the aforementioned systems astray; he evokes the Father's of the Church, St. Thomas and the Magisterium to clear a lot of the "underbrush" that has built up around the question over the years. I really found the book very well written and argued.   
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

james03

#42
July 24, 2021, 10:35:38 AM
QuoteIf I have violated this decree in any way, I sincerely apologize to y'all.

Not at all.  Michael and I are on opposite sides on certain topics, but we always have respectful debates void of ad hominems.  I believe we both enjoy the discussion.

And we agree in our anti-communism. For example, both of us pre-ordered our tickets for helicopter rides so we can assist in throwing commies out.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

#43
July 24, 2021, 10:45:36 AM
QuoteMan simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace.
We're talking about regenerated man filled with Sanctifying Grace.  Why would he always refuse an Actual Grace?  This really comes across as dung pile covered with snow.

QuoteFor myself, my motivation is because I find the distinction accords with Scripture, the Pre-Tridentine (really, Pre-Jesuit) tradition of the Church, Saint Augustine and (more importantly) Saint Thomas.

Do you have any cite where St. Thomas distinguishes between sufficient grace and efficacious grace, or even where it can be implied?

One final question, you never answered what error you believe the sufficient/efficacious system opposes.  Go back and read my defense against the "God is in your debt" argument.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

truly-a-philosofan

#44
July 24, 2021, 01:09:35 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 01:35:42 PM
Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 10:08:42 AM
Condemned by Pius V:

Quote1027 27. Free will, without the help of God's grace, has only power for sin.

Can I get the latin? I want to see if the word for power is the same word for potency.

Also, I never stated it has only power for sin. Free will in and of itself (as the name free means) is able to choose the good. Whether or not it actually does, in fact, without God's grace is another issue entirely. I have the power to saw my arm off, but I will never choose to do so.

Here's from the Latin original:
Quote
Liberum arbitrium, sine gratiae Dei adiutorio,
nonnisi ad peccandum valet.
Christ as the Source of all beauty:
« What surprised him (Blessed Henry Suso) most was to see Eternal Wisdom now under the aspect of a young maiden, the prodigy of heavenly and earthly beauty; now under the form of a young man whose countenance reflected all the beauties to be found on earth. »
St. Louis de Monfort, The Love of Eternal Wisdom, Chapter 11, no. 132.
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