Does God give us more than we can bear

Started by Chestertonian, April 21, 2018, 11:22:42 PM

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Miriam_M

Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 25, 2018, 01:04:06 PM
I'm not trying to hop onto the "get tough with Chestertonian week" bandwagon,

That's rich -- referring to more than a dozen of us who have done nothing but spend sometimes hours of our days, for a period over two years, supporting, consoling, counseling, and praying for him, only to be told by him and now by you, what disappointing human beings and Catholics we are.  Thank you.

Quotebut I do appreciate how some posters might consider your take on this as scandalous. 

"Might." 

Mono no aware

Quote from: Miriam_M on April 25, 2018, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 25, 2018, 01:04:06 PM
I'm not trying to hop onto the "get tough with Chestertonian week" bandwagon,

That's rich -- referring to more than a dozen of us who have done nothing but spend sometimes hours of our days, for a period over two years, supporting, consoling, counseling, and praying for him, only to be told by him and now by you, what disappointing human beings and Catholics we are.  Thank you.

Where did I say or imply that you were a "disappointing human being and Catholic"?  I think I need Chestertonian's gif of the guy with all the question marks popping up around his confused face.  I was just noticing the "stop coddling" attitude over some of the more recent posts.  Who knows, maybe a change of tack to tough love and Jordan Peterson self-help directives is the way to go.  That's not for me to decide.  I just wanted him to know that in defending myself against his misuse of my former views, and in doing so perhaps stridently, I wasn't trying to heap it on in that same vein.  It was not a personal attack on anyone.

Chestertonian

#32
Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 25, 2018, 01:04:06 PM

The requirement of the Easter duty has been solemnly established.  You have one year, every year, to get it together and meet that minimum.  If your view is that it is not possible for you to meet that requirement, then you're saying that the Church is setting a bar for you that you cannot reach; you're effectively saying that God demands the impossible.  At that point you would no longer have a religion.  St. Augustine said the root words of religion were reeligere (to seek again) and religare (to bind again).  The stated point of the whole Catholic religion is for the believer to turn away from sin and "seek God again," and for the Church and the sacraments to "bind you back" to the state of grace.  If you think this can't be done by a given Catholic according to the terms in which the Church says it can, then you implicitly don't consider Catholicism the religion it claims to be.  You're just left with an abstract; a philosophy, really, concerning a God who hates you. 


hmm.  yeah...i seem to be having a hard time with basic christianity these days.  "seeking God" is scary to me because...God is frightening.  his wrath, his justice, and the torments that await the imperfect.  Sin is frightening.  failure is frightening.  I cannot think of anything worse in the world than failure--in small things and in big things.  many spiritual writers see it as a temporary setback but it is hard for me not to see it as a permanent state of being

thaks for clarifying your ideas here and elsewhere and i appreciate what you have to say. and alwaysso eloquently too

every day I am constantly worrying whether something I'm doing is mortaly sinful, or venial sinful, or an imperfection.  Either way, God's offended...all 3 of these things are offensive to God.  and He can't dwell in a place that is not perfect.  that is why we don't go straight to heaven, we have to go to purgatory for more punishment.  I can't let go of the idea that I failed.  God won't let go of it until purgatory.  there is nothing to look forward to and it all seems so hopeless.  nothing i offer up is good enough for God because it isn't perfect so the whole "offering up your suffering is its own Lent" thing is null and void for me because it has to be perfect  with no complaining in order for it to be valid.  suffering is only valuable if it's done in complete silence, like Tom Cruise's wife giving birth in complete silence....

i forgot who said "spirituality is about beginning and beginning again"( i am always remembering things people say but they're not connected to who/when/where

that isone of the hardesthings ihave found aboutspirituality these days...  chronic pain and everyday  i fail more and more, I'm not progressing, i'm deteriorating, spiritually, mentally, physically.  it's all failures, no successes and no growth in virtue, no virtue period, everything is just a string of failures leaves me worrying if God made me incapable of doing anything right. 

when people talk about god giving people more than they can bear some people see this as temptation....he won't allow us to be tempted beyond what is doable for us...which means everytime we fall it is 100%our fault

or they talk about it in the context of God not giving anyone more suffering than they can handle.  which...i dont think is true, at least for me.  I feel like He expects me to go through this with no release, no catharsis, just a smile and cheeriness and an bright sunny atttitude.  i'mnot reallly bearing it.  I'm like a pot of water at a rolling boil and the lid can't keep some steam from escaping. OR it can be said in the context of responsibilities...God doesn't give us more responsibilities than we can bear.  but i'm watching my wife collapse under the pressure of all her responsibilities.. 
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Mono no aware

As long as you're cognizant that you're personalizing things, I suppose.  The fact that you say things like, "for me it feels as if this-and-that" or, "as I see it, God is such-and-such," is at least admitting that you're eschewing the Church's theology for your own.  Others can help you try to find your way out of that dreadful rabbit hole better than I ever could; now I'm just stuck being regretful that I was any part of what got you into it.  Thanks for the kind words.  You, of course, are always one of my favorite posters here.  Even in your gloom you retain your wise-cracking sense of humor.  I liked this one:

Quote from: Chestertonian on April 25, 2018, 02:14:56 PMsuffering is only valuable if it's done in complete silence, like Tom Cruise's wife giving birth in complete silence....

  :lol:

Chestertonian

Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 25, 2018, 02:33:59 PM
As long as you're cognizant that you're personalizing things, I suppose.  The fact that you say things like, "for me it feels as if this-and-that" or, "as I see it, God is such-and-such," is at least admitting that you're eschewing the Church's theology for your own.  Others can help you try to find your way out of that dreadful rabbit hole better than I ever could; now I'm just stuck being regretful that I was any part of what got you into it.  Thanks for the kind words.  You, of course, are always one of my favorite posters here.  Even in your gloom you retain your wise-cracking sense of humor.  I liked this one:

Quote from: Chestertonian on April 25, 2018, 02:14:56 PMsuffering is only valuable if it's done in complete silence, like Tom Cruise's wife giving birth in complete silence....

  :lol:
we may not be crusaders, but at least we are not Scientologists
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Chestertonian

It's not really your fault... I think it's my brains fault.  The unhelpful thinking filter is broken and distortions abound.  You were, as you said about christilsa, "shootin' the sh*t"
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

james03

QuoteWhat is it Chess, 15 months?  Or 2 years since you received the Holy Eucharist?  Do you even know how long?

That's a big problem.  The first thing lost is Charity.  After that Hope.  Then Faith.  Seems like he is well on the way.

Straighten that crap out Ches, or don't.  Your choice.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

Quote@ james... i had to LOL at your talk about manliness and then being told that i should spend a week weeping, haha.  I didn't grow up with validation and I wasn't allowed to cry as a kid.  I think this is how most catholic dads raise their kids.  Not how I am raising mine--i think my son has a lot he can cry about and I don't begrudge him for it when he does.
There is a proper balance.  If your boy cries because he struck out in baseball, you'd tell him to knock it off and work on getting better.  If your boy cries because his Mom died, you encourage it and validate the loss.

QuoteI don't have type 2 diabetes I have type 1.  they're completely different things and you cannot reverse type 1.  the only thing I take is insulin for that.  I can't eat food anymore so "eating protein and cutting out carbs" makes me ???????
Fine.  I imagine you are taking nutritional food through the tube.  Scratch that off the to-do list.  However you have a responsibility (or your care giver) to look after your blood sugar level.
QuoteBeen on testosterone shots biweekly for years (around the same time they revoked my man card, haha).  been there done that.
That's good you have that covered.  Scratch that off the list as a possible cause for depression.  Go through the Self Authoring program and follow my advice on "Present", which is a rip off from JP anyway.  As you progress, work with the doctor to start slowly reducing any psychotropic meds.  Perhaps the docs think you are a burden (as opposed to Dignified Human Life), and have you drugged out, waiting for you to die.  As you improve by following the programs, work on tapering off the meds and that may improve you a lot.

QuoteI don't have that kind of mobility in my arms.  most of my PT is passive range of motion and handling being in a sitting/standing position without passing out.  working on retaining speech /communication has been my main focus.
Doesn't matter.  If you have a list of PT to do, then make it your goal to work up to doing 3 times as much (go slow, add a little daily).  Get savage with the PT.
Quotesome of your advice is great, like i will have to look into the thing about finding child abusers on the internet,
Purpose.  Add Vision of what that could look like (saving kids), then make the plan (investigate the movement.  Find their hang outs.  Get on their forums and let them know you are handicapped, but you can use the internet and would like to help.  They'll love it.  Let the Vision motivate you to work the Plan.
Quoteand i will have to look into that self authoring suite, have heard good things about it as well.  Unfortunately the 'future' part is completely uncertain and I think I have good reason to not be optimistic.
The whole premise of Future is that it is uncertain.  That is why you have to acknowledge the possible outcomes: it gets a lot worse.  It gets a lot better.  You then use push/pull to motivate you.  You just said you were interested in helping kids by busting up child trafficking organizations.  If you save 100 kids from getting abused, are you going to tell me that your life is a wasted life?  Give me a break.

One more thing, why did you say you have to "look into" the Self Authoring Suite?  Why haven't you already bought it, and are already working it?  Ask yourself that.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

PerEvangelicaDicta

I wince to mention this, Ches, because I hate to sound simplistic regarding your situation, but it doesn't sound like you have any priestly guidance.  If that is true, and that you have been separated from the sacraments, it's no wonder you can't escape this black hole, and that you have descended to "having a hard time with basic Christianity".   You desperately need serious spiritual counseling, whether it is via visits, phone calls, or emails, or combination.
James' suggestions are quite sound, and I especially like his advice to target a reduction or elimination in psychotropic drugs, but please make getting an "expert" to assist your Faith a priority. 

They shall not be confounded in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be filled
Psalms 36:19

Chestertonian

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta on April 25, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
I wince to mention this, Ches, because I hate to sound simplistic regarding your situation, but it doesn't sound like you have any priestly guidance.  If that is true, and that you have been separated from the sacraments, it's no wonder you can't escape this black hole, and that you have descended to "having a hard time with basic Christianity".   You desperately need serious spiritual counseling, whether it is via visits, phone calls, or emails, or combination.
James' suggestions are quite sound, and I especially like his advice to target a reduction or elimination in psychotropic drugs, but please make getting an "expert" to assist your Faith a priority.

I have a priest who visits but the only time I saw him was when he came to see my wife in the hospital.  He y confession but he got frustrated when I don't receive Communion. 
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Non Nobis

Quote from: Miriam_M on April 25, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on April 25, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
like what if complaining is a mortal sin for me?  What if crying becomes a mortal sin?  what if anxiety is a mortal sin?  what if I ask God forr graces and mercy and he says "no, I hate you, go away" God isnt a slot machine where we ask him for what we want and we're guaranteed to get it.  that's what so scary about relying on God--the uncertainty.

You should realize that in those questions you're asking if we believe that God is a monster, is hateful, or is some caricature of a tyrant.  No, we don't believe that because all of that is blasphemy.

Now let's come to heresy -- the heresy that suggests that God changes: He's loving to some (everyone but you), hateful to others.  Not possible because that would be a vengeful pagan God or a capricious God of antiquity, not the God who became man and died for you because He loved you so much even though He saw all of your sins in advance, and He can see right now that you are questioning His omnipotence and doubting His mercy and generosity.

So when you stop asking me to verify blasphemy and heresy, I'll have an adult and rational conversation with you, worthy of your intelligence and education.

Chestertonian is objectively committing blasphemy and heresy, there is no doubt of that. I'd like to think that he's not subjectively guilty, but it is hard to believe that based on what he says. I wish he would say something like this instead:

"I know that God is good, I believe He is good to ME, but I just can't feel it or understand it based on what is happening to me.  I do my best, I PRAY to love Him despite my lack of feeling and understanding"

Chestertonian, I can't tell that you are really trying or praying.... even just a little bit, now and then.

We can't judge you, but what are we to think?
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Chestertonian

#41
Quote from: Non Nobis on April 25, 2018, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 25, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on April 25, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
like what if complaining is a mortal sin for me?  What if crying becomes a mortal sin?  what if anxiety is a mortal sin?  what if I ask God forr graces and mercy and he says "no, I hate you, go away" God isnt a slot machine where we ask him for what we want and we're guaranteed to get it.  that's what so scary about relying on God--the uncertainty.

You should realize that in those questions you're asking if we believe that God is a monster, is hateful, or is some caricature of a tyrant.  No, we don't believe that because all of that is blasphemy.

Now let's come to heresy -- the heresy that suggests that God changes: He's loving to some (everyone but you), hateful to others.  Not possible because that would be a vengeful pagan God or a capricious God of antiquity, not the God who became man and died for you because He loved you so much even though He saw all of your sins in advance, and He can see right now that you are questioning His omnipotence and doubting His mercy and generosity.

So when you stop asking me to verify blasphemy and heresy, I'll have an adult and rational conversation with you, worthy of your intelligence and education.

Chestertonian is objectively committing blasphemy and heresy, there is no doubt of that. I'd like to think that he's not subjectively guilty, but it is hard to believe that based on what he says. I wish he would say something like this instead:

"I know that God is good, I believe He is good to ME, but I just can't feel it or understand it based on what is happening to me.  I do my best, I PRAY to love Him despite my lack of feeling and understanding"

Chestertonian, I can't tell that you are really trying or praying.... even just a little bit, now and then.

We can't judge you, but what are we to think?

i don't know.  ivw mostly given up on prayer because it means approaching God and if I am in mortal sin then He won't hear me anyway and I get this sense that He's so angry. Sometimes when my pain is bad and I think about divine providence it seems like He is the one kicking me in the chest! stomach, sending fire up my legs and up my back, it seems like He wants this to happen it's His will and I have to just accept it and it just seems like He's so angry and people say He chastises those He loves but I've never been able to have a loving relationship with someone who chastises me.  I don't get it.  Any attempt at tryingto believe that God could be both just and merciful.  It feels like mental gymnastics.  Watching people talk about how they trust in God's grace and mercy is like watching people do gymnastics.... There they are flipping around the high bar and spinning around on the horse but when I try I just can't do it

I can sense Gods justice and punishments.  Life is punishment.  I just... can't sense any goodness or warmth coning from Him.  His Mercy doesn't SEEM real to me even though others say they receive mercy.... I'm still haunted by things that happened to me in the past and it seems now like it was a test Good sent me and now I have to live with these recurring memories of the time I failed

This is why my son isn't getting his first communion this spring even though he's 7... I am not even capable of preparing him. 

It's hard to balance out that God loves sinners and the fact that he hates sinners. 
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Chestertonian

"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Chestertonian

Quote from: Non Nobis on April 25, 2018, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 25, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on April 25, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
like what if complaining is a mortal sin for me?  What if crying becomes a mortal sin?  what if anxiety is a mortal sin?  what if I ask God forr graces and mercy and he says "no, I hate you, go away" God isnt a slot machine where we ask him for what we want and we're guaranteed to get it.  that's what so scary about relying on God--the uncertainty.

You should realize that in those questions you're asking if we believe that God is a monster, is hateful, or is some caricature of a tyrant.  No, we don't believe that because all of that is blasphemy.

Now let's come to heresy -- the heresy that suggests that God changes: He's loving to some (everyone but you), hateful to others.  Not possible because that would be a vengeful pagan God or a capricious God of antiquity, not the God who became man and died for you because He loved you so much even though He saw all of your sins in advance, and He can see right now that you are questioning His omnipotence and doubting His mercy and generosity.

So when you stop asking me to verify blasphemy and heresy, I'll have an adult and rational conversation with you, worthy of your intelligence and education.

Chestertonian is objectively committing blasphemy and heresy, there is no doubt of that. I'd like to think that he's not subjectively guilty, but it is hard to believe that based on what he says. I wish he would say something like this instead:

"I know that God is good, I believe He is good to ME, but I just can't feel it or understand it based on what is happening to me.  I do my best, I PRAY to love Him despite my lack of feeling and understanding"

Chestertonian, I can't tell that you are really trying or praying.... even just a little bit, now and then.

We can't judge you, but what are we to think?
I am sorry for being a source of frustration for so many people here.  I don't want to say blasphemous scandalousthings and make God even more angry
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Carleendiane

I know this.  :grouphug: :grouphug: Love you regardless. Just do.
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.