What is the purpose of life?

Started by Irishcyclist, April 13, 2018, 03:08:41 PM

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Sojourn

Quote from: Gardener on April 16, 2018, 08:29:17 AM
Quote from: Sojourn on April 16, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2018, 02:36:43 AM
Quote from: Kirin on April 15, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
Here's the difference. I've enjoyed my life so far, and you essentially consider this to be a dress rehearsal.

All for naught it there wasn't ever going to be an opening night, and your time would have been better spent elsewhere.

Rejecting God implied I am rejecting an objective power. You might as well say I've rejected the Tooth Fairy (As I expect you have) for all the weight to it.

But here's the thing: if Kruezritter is wrong, he'll never know it. And he's living his life in a way that's satisfying to him, so he really isn't losing anything.

On the other hand, you're going to know for eternity that you were wrong. I'm not saying this in a vindictive way. I hope you're delighted to know you were wrong. But whatever happens, you'll know you were wrong forever. But the crazy thing is that, if you're right, you're never going to know either. That would frustrate the Hell out of me if I was an atheist.

Peace be with you Larry,

But if someone sincerely doesn't believe, either perhaps out of ignorance or sheet distortion of truth about god, it's unclear to me that they necessarily go to hell. Hell requires a conscious knowing and willing.

Willful ignorance of revelation (for example, Acts 3) and/or willful violation of natural law (of which it is impossible to be ignorant -- cf Romans 2) condemn a man since they transcend the mere privation of beatitude as in the case of Original Sin (which does not require willing on the part of the person). Further, it would be impossible for an adult in such a situation to lack mortal sin, assuming the condition of their arrival at reason, especially an atheist (Psalm 13/14 -- depending on numbering).

Such men are nabal -- a fool: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5036.htm

Respectfully Gardener, can you take a step back and see how someone may be inclined to not see the Catholic Religion as true? Consider the crisis we are in with no foreseeable end, if anything the prognosis is getting worse, and can therefore be used to atrack the veracity of the faith. And that's only one aspect. So it's easy to call on willful ignorance and violations of natural law, but we live in strangeneral times where our growing understanding of the uinverse only adds more questions to existentialism than andwers.
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem!

Kirin

#31
Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2018, 02:36:43 AM

But here's the thing: if Kruezritter is wrong, he'll never know it. And he's living his life in a way that's satisfying to him, so he really isn't losing anything.

On the other hand, you're going to know for eternity that you were wrong. I'm not saying this in a vindictive way. I hope you're delighted to know you were wrong. But whatever happens, you'll know you were wrong forever. But the crazy thing is that, if you're right, you're never going to know either. That would frustrate the Hell out of me if I was an atheist.

This is a prime case of the issue I observed where Traditionalists moreso than other religious believers are often centuries behind on developing thought, to such a far degree participation is almost impossible; you're holding up arguments that have been smashed down centuries if not sometimes millenia ago (The Epicurean Paradox for instance on the impossibility of being all good, all knowing and all powerful all at once). Simply because one hasn't read the objections to them does not mean others have have not and see them for the many flaws they do posses.

Pascal's Wager, the situation you post, has been floating around for several centuries and has been answered thousands of times in a variety of different forms. This is not a convincing argument and even Pascal himself conceded after a time it was very weak reasoning with several flaws.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager , the link further down does contain mild language; though nothing that wouldn't be acceptable on daytime television.

Not an academic overview, but a good broad overview of many of the more common objections in simple terms.

In any case, this is not the place for this argument; I initally posted to answer the raised point; Atheists and Non-Religious countries do tend to be more apathetic towards suicide or willing to do it; there's no fear of supernatural retribution, the secular schools of thought against it (such as "Slippery slope" theorists who fear it will lead to a Logan's Run style scenario) do not enjoy wide support and perhaps most of all; of the ones practicing it it tends to be those who've got terminal conditions from which there are no hopes of recovery and there is no benefit for them, or any proposed supernatural voyeurs.

Larry

Quote from: Sojourn on April 16, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2018, 02:36:43 AM
Quote from: Kirin on April 15, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
Here's the difference. I've enjoyed my life so far, and you essentially consider this to be a dress rehearsal.

All for naught it there wasn't ever going to be an opening night, and your time would have been better spent elsewhere.

Rejecting God implied I am rejecting an objective power. You might as well say I've rejected the Tooth Fairy (As I expect you have) for all the weight to it.

But here's the thing: if Kruezritter is wrong, he'll never know it. And he's living his life in a way that's satisfying to him, so he really isn't losing anything.

On the other hand, you're going to know for eternity that you were wrong. I'm not saying this in a vindictive way. I hope you're delighted to know you were wrong. But whatever happens, you'll know you were wrong forever. But the crazy thing is that, if you're right, you're never going to know either. That would frustrate the Hell out of me if I was an atheist.

Peace be with you Larry,

But if someone sincerely doesn't believe, either perhaps out of ignorance or sheet distortion of truth about god, it's unclear to me that they necessarily go to hell. Hell requires a conscious knowing and willing.

And you'll notice I never said he was going to Hell.
"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."-St. John of the Cross

Larry

Quote from: Kirin on April 16, 2018, 10:15:11 AM
Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2018, 02:36:43 AM

But here's the thing: if Kruezritter is wrong, he'll never know it. And he's living his life in a way that's satisfying to him, so he really isn't losing anything.

On the other hand, you're going to know for eternity that you were wrong. I'm not saying this in a vindictive way. I hope you're delighted to know you were wrong. But whatever happens, you'll know you were wrong forever. But the crazy thing is that, if you're right, you're never going to know either. That would frustrate the Hell out of me if I was an atheist.

This is a prime case of the issue I observed where Traditionalists moreso than other religious believers are often centuries behind on developing thought, to such a far degree participation is almost impossible; you're holding up arguments that have been smashed down centuries if not sometimes millenia ago (The Epicurean Paradox for instance on the impossibility of being all good, all knowing and all powerful all at once). Simply because one hasn't read the objections to them does not mean others have have not and see them for the many flaws they do posses.

Pascal's Wager, the situation you post, has been floating around for several centuries and has been answered thousands of times in a variety of different forms. This is not a convincing argument and even Pascal himself conceded after a time it was very weak reasoning with several flaws.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager , the link further down does contain mild language; though nothing that wouldn't be acceptable on daytime television.

Not an academic overview, but a good broad overview of many of the more common objections in simple terms.

In any case, this is not the place for this argument; I initally posted to answer the raised point; Atheists and Non-Religious countries do tend to be more apathetic towards suicide or willing to do it; there's no fear of supernatural retribution, the secular schools of thought against it (such as "Slippery slope" theorists who fear it will lead to a Logan's Run style scenario) do not enjoy wide support and perhaps most of all; of the ones practicing it it tends to be those who've got terminal conditions from which there are no hopes of recovery and there is no benefit for them, or any proposed supernatural voyeurs.

I didn't mention a thing about Pascal or his wager. I make a common sense observation. If you're
correct, you won't know. If a believer is wrong, he won't know. So what makes your situation so superior?
"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."-St. John of the Cross

Kirin

Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2018, 12:06:11 PM
I didn't mention a thing about Pascal or his wager. I make a common sense observation. If you're
correct, you won't know. If a believer is wrong, he won't know. So what makes your situation so superior?

Your observation is part of the same premise, you should believe because the payoff is better for believing and being right than it is for not believing and being right; something that is itself also addressed within that link.

A believer can't know he's right either with the framework he proposes, all comes back to the wager which itself is based around the idea of trying to deceive a potential deity with lip service.

I think my position is more consistent, after all let's work with your idea that a believer is wrong he won't know, if he's a muslim in life they might well spend time cutting off their daughters outlying genitalia, if he's a Hasidic jew he may well stone women who don't wear the mandatory powdered wig so on and so forth. Even if he's wrong, he may well be doing quite foul things to others who do not wish to accept his stance on the wager in the meantime.

Accepting the premise of the wager is putting in a lot of input into something with no pay off, and while I appreciate for one considering soley eternal concerns; for someone who has never accepted anything as eternal to begin with this idea is nonsensical and "worth" can be ascribed fairly to non-eternal things which cannot be enjoyed necessarily when one is trying to appease a potential outside supernatural presence (I say this because Christianity itself doesn't have a hold on this wager, it justifies belief in Islam and Shinto every bit as much).

The believer can't know he's correct; revealed though many faiths claim to be they are still faiths; that is to say claims without any backing and the virtue comes from accepting these unfounded claims.

Which kind of causes a problem for those who have beheld miracles or visions; because now it's impossible for them to have faith since they've had proof. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe, so the ones who have are in hot water for having no faith.


james03

Quote(The Epicurean Paradox for instance on the impossibility of being all good, all knowing and all powerful all at once).

I'll bite.  Why don't you spell that one out for us Kirin?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

mikemac

Quote from: Kirin on April 16, 2018, 12:39:13 PM
...
Which kind of causes a problem for those who have beheld miracles or visions; because now it's impossible for them to have faith since they've had proof. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe, so the ones who have are in hot water for having no faith.

You quoted the Bible properly, but then you added your own spin.  Those who have beheld miracles or visions are not in hot water for having no faith.  If anything their faith is enhanced from the miracles or visions.  Particularly their faith in eternal life.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

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Chestertonian

Quote from: GloriaPatri on April 14, 2018, 10:11:02 AM
It would be interesting to see if there's any correlation between religious belief (or lack thereof) and rate of suicides/suicide attempts.

i am not convinced that we are any better off than the general population.  yes it would be interesting to see statistics and maybe i am just a bad catholic but it's a temptation i have struggled with even though I don't plan on acting on it and I couldn't even if i had the intention because of my lack of physical mobility.  it would have to be "assisted" and thats not happening.  just a feeling like my wife & kids are better off without me and that my life is useless.  i couldnt do it even if I wanted to, it would have to be "assisted" and there's also the fear of hell that has kept me from acting on those thoughts, even when I was physically able to act on them.  back when I lived in baltimore, I used to deal with the suicidal thoughts a lot, and I used to walk over this highway overpass on my way home sometimes.  I had a lot of fatigue so often I'd have to stop in random places and wait for my energy to come back.  so I would sit down in the middle of it and think about jumping.  But every time I did, there was always this church steeple that nagged at me.  I knew it was the church that had perpetual adoration.  I just got this sense like Our Lord was saying, "I'm watching you."  And that always kept me from jumping.  i could see how fewer Catholics act on the thoughts, but I think even St. Therese struggled with suicidal thoughts, she chose not to listen to them.  fear of hell is a powerful thing

my wife has made multiple suicide attempts off and on and her struggle with it is much worse than mine.  So perhaps we are not "Good Catholics" but at the very least we are bad ones. 

it seems like the point of life is suffering and offering it up.  if God isn't giving you enough suffering through divine providence we're called to take on more penances and harsh fasting and whippig ourselves and beating ourselves.  i feel worthless all of the time and I get this sense that this is how God wants it to be.... the whole idea of "I am nothing, God is everything."  we are dust, we are nothing.  I go between wondering if being Catholic makes me more depressed or if it's the reason why I haven't completely given up. 

people make suicide attempts because they want the pain to end.  They just want it to be over.  they feel like the world would be a better place without them in it and that they're relieving their loved ones from the burden of having to deal with them.  I remember dealing with the thoughts as a kid, because it seemed like my parents were always angry at me and upset with me, so maybe if I ended it, they would finally be able to be happy.  I don't even remember how I got through those times.  I'm not convinced that God doesn't give us more than we can bear... sometimes you get to a point where you're overloaded.  people think that by ending it, they're going to end their pain and I can understand that and relate to it very much.  What gets me through it is telling myself that it actually isn't a way out and I'll just keep suffering for eternity, so it's not like there actually is an end.  Which is damn depressing, but makes it seem like less of an "escape route"  there really is no way off the existence train, as much as we might want out.  even if all i have to hope for is a less dreadful place in hell, at least by not committing suicide, the fire might not be as hot and I might still have a narrow, dismal shot at heaven?
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Jon Paul

Quote from: Kirin on April 16, 2018, 10:15:11 AMThis is a prime case of the issue I observed where Traditionalists moreso than other religious believers are often centuries behind on developing thought, to such a far degree participation is almost impossible; you're holding up arguments that have been smashed down centuries if not sometimes millenia ago (The Epicurean Paradox for instance on the impossibility of being all good, all knowing and all powerful all at once). Simply because one hasn't read the objections to them does not mean others have have not and see them for the many flaws they do posses.

Your  statement that scholastic philosophy and theology have been "smashed down" centuries and even milenia ago is ridiculous and unfounded. You blithely "name drop" the Epicurean paradox as if the greatest minds in Christendoms have not addressed it already. By all means, remain unconvinced of their arguments. But do not mount your pseudointellectual high horse and sniff at the Christian reaponse as if it were either non-existent or so lowbrow as to be unworthy of rational discourse. You come across as a teenager who's read Dawkins and think they actually understand the Argument from Motion.

Participation is very difficult, I grant. But not because the Christian position has been "smashed down." Rather modern discourse has wholly abandoned coherent and rational philosophy and theology.

You posted the above statements on a Catholic forum, casually dismissing 2000 years of Christian apologetics and then state "here's not the place to have this discussion." If you remain unconvinced, fair enough. But to let your statement stand unchallenged would be to give the impression that you're right. Either concede the existence of legitimate Christian responses which have personally failed to convince you or back up your claim that the Chriatian position has been "smashed down" by smashing it down for us here and now.

This is a discussion about the purpose of life. Evil is a reality we face in life. What better place to discuss this?

The provlem of evil.

Define your terms. Evil? Good?

nmoerbeek

Quote from: james03 on April 16, 2018, 01:50:02 PM
Quote(The Epicurean Paradox for instance on the impossibility of being all good, all knowing and all powerful all at once).

I'll bite.  Why don't you spell that one out for us Kirin?

Its a way of describing the problem of evil in the world, named after the Greek Philosopher Epicurus.  Epicurus did not write it, I have seen it attributed to David Hume the
18th century Scottish philosopher.

The paradox (which I have seen in different forms)
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

The paradox itself is based on a false dilemma.  It provides only two options.  It does not suggest ever that God brings a greater good out of allowing evil, which of course is part of the confession of our Christian faith.  It also places the problem of evil on God, not on man misuse of his free will.

"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
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james03

Yep, I was waiting for Kirin to state what he believe it was.  Heathens are usually normie IQ and completely ignorant of philosophy.  They don't even know the questions.  Next he'll prove Christianity is wrong when he "discovers" the Euthyphro dilemma.

While I agree that the Greater Good is the obvious objection to the Epicurean Paradox, my main objection is the misunderstanding of omnipotence, and to a lesser extent to category error of perception (inside/outside of time).  As I've said to the point of being a broken record, God can not make a circle a square at the same time -- He would deny Himself, Who is Truth Itself.  God has professed Free Will.  Period.  The End.

Furthermore, I think the heathens have the false belief that Catholics believe in Cartesian Dualism, where there are pre-fabbed ectoplasm spirits that God can put into any ole random body robot.  This is obviously false.  And as I've said before, if you remove a Hitler from history, I would never exist.  It is the Butterfly Effect writ large.  If you tamper with one part of the reality God is/has professed, then everything changes.

The reality God is professed (tense is correct) meets His Sovereign goals, whatever they are.  I speculate it is to maximize souls in heaven and minimize suffering in hell within the framework of Free Will, but don't insist on that belief.  I merely say it is a reasonable opinion.  And so I've come back to Greater Good.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Chestertonian

Quote from: james03 on April 19, 2018, 09:11:10 AM
The reality God is professed (tense is correct) meets His Sovereign goals, whatever they are.  I speculate it is to maximize souls in heaven and minimize suffering in hell within the framework of Free Will, but don't insist on that belief.  I merely say it is a reasonable opinion.  And so I've come back to Greater Good.

how do you square this with the fewness of the saved?  From what a lot of souls have said, the number of souls in heaven is very, very small compared to the number who go to hell.
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

james03

My personal belief is that hell is like Dante imagined it.  Probably most of those souls are in the upper layers.

It gets back to Free Will.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Non Nobis

#43
Quote from: Chestertonian on April 19, 2018, 09:55:55 AM
...
how do you square this with the fewness of the saved?  From what a lot of souls have said, the number of souls in heaven is very, very small compared to the number who go to hell.

Surely the number of Catholics who are saved is much, much greater compared to the rest of the world. Remember that even the most hardened Catholics we see in the world today have the Sacraments and the Last Rites.  You can't be presumptuous, but you must be hopeful.

And among those Catholics who truly are doing their best to serve God and accepting His gifts, the numbers are definitely very different!!

Chestertonian, I pray that you would begin trusting in God and going to Communion - by not doing so it seems you are TRYING to be among the many, and not the few! Wake up, Chestertonian! Believe in the power of the Sacraments.  God's power is immeasurably stronger than your sin. Have hope, not despair.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Sojourn

Quote from: Chestertonian on April 19, 2018, 09:55:55 AM
Quote from: james03 on April 19, 2018, 09:11:10 AM
The reality God is professed (tense is correct) meets His Sovereign goals, whatever they are.  I speculate it is to maximize souls in heaven and minimize suffering in hell within the framework of Free Will, but don't insist on that belief.  I merely say it is a reasonable opinion.  And so I've come back to Greater Good.

how do you square this with the fewness of the saved?  From what a lot of souls have said, the number of souls in heaven is very, very small compared to the number who go to hell.

It's mysterious that God would love man so much as to send his divine son to suffer and yet so few make it. I simply rest on there being a lot we don't know. I am thinking on aspects of things for academic reasons, like the transmigration of souls post partum, perhaps the afterlife also being another stage containing it's own movement. I suspect their may have been some censure by an ecclssiastical authority but I would not know to what degree.
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem!