The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon

Started by Vetus Ordo, November 17, 2017, 08:04:31 PM

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Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Gardener on December 05, 2017, 07:17:25 PM
Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 05, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Frank on December 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

Given the various scandals of false research, fabricated results, and peer "reviewed" papers which aren't worth the paper they're printed on, why would you expect us to believe scientists are objective?

Objectivity is a nice buzzword, but let's not kid ourselves -- no one, and I mean no one, is truly objective.

Not only that, but true objectivity is in fact impossible in many cases.

There are serious problems today with many things in the way science is currently done, in many fields of research.  The temptation to "cheat" is sometimes just too strong for some; and, moreover, some scientists lack the necessary training for what they do (e.g. publishing neuroimaging papers without understanding the relevant statistics).  All this is in theory fixable of course.  But scientists are not machines, but human, and have subjective attachments and aversions.  The best scientists can do is realize that these biases are there, but they can't make them go away.  The good scientists do realize this and say that the most important thing is not to be fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.

Over and above the human failings of scientists, no one has come up with a really good philosophical grounding for science (one would need to solve the problem of induction to do that).  There's no absolutely solid philosophical basis for the claim that, tomorrow morning, when you think you are backing your car out of the garage, you will not actually move forward and crash into the garage wall.  Science categorizes regularities in nature, true, but there is always a possibility, however slight, that an error is made.  True, the regularities in nature derive from the nature of things (e.g. if the nature of things were different so would be the regularities) but there isn't a neat one-to-one correspondence so that one can deduce the nature of things from regularities in nature.  Now philosophers and epistemologists will claim "physical certainty" for the case of the car but there is no real basis for the claim.  Nevertheless, in fact our cars do always go backwards when we put the gear in reverse, every single time.

That being said, a young earth is simply massively inconsistent with the evidence we have.  Make of it what you will.

Greg

Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 05, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Frank on December 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Gardener

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on December 06, 2017, 07:08:54 AM
Quote from: Gardener on December 05, 2017, 07:17:25 PM
Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 05, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Frank on December 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

Given the various scandals of false research, fabricated results, and peer "reviewed" papers which aren't worth the paper they're printed on, why would you expect us to believe scientists are objective?

Objectivity is a nice buzzword, but let's not kid ourselves -- no one, and I mean no one, is truly objective.

Not only that, but true objectivity is in fact impossible in many cases.

There are serious problems today with many things in the way science is currently done, in many fields of research.  The temptation to "cheat" is sometimes just too strong for some; and, moreover, some scientists lack the necessary training for what they do (e.g. publishing neuroimaging papers without understanding the relevant statistics).  All this is in theory fixable of course.  But scientists are not machines, but human, and have subjective attachments and aversions.  The best scientists can do is realize that these biases are there, but they can't make them go away.  The good scientists do realize this and say that the most important thing is not to be fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.

Over and above the human failings of scientists, no one has come up with a really good philosophical grounding for science (one would need to solve the problem of induction to do that).  There's no absolutely solid philosophical basis for the claim that, tomorrow morning, when you think you are backing your car out of the garage, you will not actually move forward and crash into the garage wall.  Science categorizes regularities in nature, true, but there is always a possibility, however slight, that an error is made.  True, the regularities in nature derive from the nature of things (e.g. if the nature of things were different so would be the regularities) but there isn't a neat one-to-one correspondence so that one can deduce the nature of things from regularities in nature.  Now philosophers and epistemologists will claim "physical certainty" for the case of the car but there is no real basis for the claim.  Nevertheless, in fact our cars do always go backwards when we put the gear in reverse, every single time.

That being said, a young earth is simply massively inconsistent with the evidence we have.  Make of it what you will.

Until our IoT trajectory sees us computerizing the currently manual gear selection and some AI decides it's had enough of our crap.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

GloriaPatri

Quote from: Greg on December 06, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 05, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Frank on December 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous. Literally every modern convenience is built upon scientific principles. Hell, the computer I'm typing this on is built upon such principles. To say that you don't trust scientists when it comes to science means that you can't even trust modern engineering. Which, I think we can all agree, is not the case.

That's not to say that there aren't problems within the scientific communities. The peer review process is far from perfect, and there are definitely journals that publish less than stellar papers and articles. But that hardly implies that all of modern science is bollocks.

Greg

Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 06, 2017, 09:40:26 AM

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous.

Not a ludicrous as not understanding a literary device.

Are you autistic?
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

james03

The problem for evolution is on the micro scale.  Selection is plausible.  Man does this with cross breeding.  The problems comes with new mutations.  We are talking about proteins.

Proteins emerge as linear chains.  They then auto-assemble via folding into nano-machines.  What is more there are three separate folds, with the tertiary fold the final one.  The folding comes about due to electrical attraction, so sequencing is extremely critical.  You can not just zap out an atom as this would bust the fold and produce garbage.

The problems is compounded by orders of magnitude when you realize macro level changes would require numerous protein changes all at once, due to the fact that nano-machines contain multiple proteins.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Heinrich

Quote from: Greg on December 06, 2017, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 06, 2017, 09:40:26 AM

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous.

Not a ludicrous as not understanding a literary device.

Are you autistic?

Is hyperbole lying?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Greg

Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Michael Wilson

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Carleendiane

To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

The Curt Jester

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 10, 2017, 06:32:07 PM
Quote from: Greg on December 10, 2017, 05:56:41 PM
When he claims he scored 300 yes.
I've bowled a 140.

I've hit 300 twice.   Had witnesses both times who were more excited than I was.  So, yes, it is possible.

Or were you speaking of IQ scores?
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

Heinrich

Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Greg

There are lies and there are lies.

There are circumstances where you can justifiably kill or steal and neither are sins.  So, logically, there should be circumstances where you can lie.  The act is not ALL important.  It depends on the intention.

I am saying there are occasions where telling the truth would cause anger, jealously, fear, uncertainty, a huge waste of time and negative outcomes and where lying is necessary.

The end does not usually justify the means.  But sometimes it does.  Like War, self-defence or stealing food from a government storage warehouse in Venezuela today to feed your family.

I would think, for example, that it is morally justified to lie in war to deceive the enemy and thus win the war.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Frank

Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 06, 2017, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: Greg on December 06, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
Quote from: GloriaPatri on December 05, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Frank on December 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous. Literally every modern convenience is built upon scientific principles. Hell, the computer I'm typing this on is built upon such principles. To say that you don't trust scientists when it comes to science means that you can't even trust modern engineering. Which, I think we can all agree, is not the case.

That's not to say that there aren't problems within the scientific communities. The peer review process is far from perfect, and there are definitely journals that publish less than stellar papers and articles. But that hardly implies that all of modern science is bollocks.

The devil often speaks the truth but I don't trust anything he says.
in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
hoc erat in principio apud Deum
omnia per ipsum facta sunt et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est