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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Non Nobis on Today at 02:08:30 AM »
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How could you possibly know with certainty that Charity is dead in his soul?  Are you his God?

Mortal Sin.  What dies when you sin mortally?

The Easter Duty was instituted to combat the very heresy he espouses.

No can know if a soul is spiritually alive or dead without a direct revelation from God. That's the teaching of Trent.

Indeed.

I have the impulse to thank posts on both sides of the disagreement here. God alone knows the best way to reach Ches.  Maybe Ches does need the stern admonishments of some more then anything to trigger him to act.  Maybe they will turn the trick. But are we telling God that, look, because WE ARE JUST TIRED OF THIS, You can't possibly be working through a combination of human means, severity from some, untiring patience, consolation, and advice from others,  medication - in addition to priests; all driven by Your grace.

We just don't KNOW what is going on in Ches subjectively even though his objective sin is very clear.  We do know he suffers, and should know that the mind can be affected psychiatrically by suffering, and by medication.  Even if this were not the case, who do we think we are judging his soul by his external behavior?  Talk about his objective sin, not the lack of charity in his heart. Perhaps charity may exist in someone's heart even if his suffering drives him to say things he would never say in his right mind - we don't know these things.

Maybe one day before he dies he'll turn to Christ and say "Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom", and be forgiven for his sins.  We don't know exactly how God would have reached Ches, but we can't restrict God.

Obviously, if you just don't have time and disagree with all this, we do know that prayer will bring God to use the best means (human, medical, or grace alone) to help Ches.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Gardener on Today at 01:46:10 AM »
Surely Ches remembers his Torah training as a young boy preparing for his bar mitzvah, and later on until he converted.

Exodus 34:

Quote
[5] And when the Lord was come down in a cloud, Moses stood with him, calling upon the name of the Lord.

[6] And when he passed before him, he said: O the Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, patient and of much compassion, and true, [7] Who keepest mercy unto thousands: who takest away iniquity, and wickedness, and sin, and no man of himself is innocent before thee. Who renderest the iniquity of the fathers to the children, and to the grandchildren, unto the third and fourth generation.

Moses had previously come down from Mt. Sinai with the original tablets. The Hebrews were worshiping the golden calf. He goes back up the mountain. Keep in mind, God had just led these people out of the bondage of Egypt and they were now committing idolatry. This would be like catching your new bride in bed with someone else on your honeymoon -- no one would fault a man for a crime of passion. God had every reason to rain down fire, open the earth, and send the whole wretched lot to Hell. But instead, we see God's mercy and gentle nature in dealing with sinners. Merciful, gracious, patient, compassionate (suffers with), true. Mercy unto a thousand generations, takes away iniquity, wickedness, and sin. Yet, He does this not on the merit of a man, because no man of himself is innocent before God. He necessarily punishes generations until the sin is gone by the taking away of the influencing parties, and then is merciful. 

11 attributes are noted:
3 essence
6 mercy
2 justice

I find the 6 merciful attributes interesting because there are 6 Sacraments which an unordained man may partake of as well:
Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Eucharist, Marriage, Extreme Unction

In Baptism, we see God's mercy towards Original Sin and actual sin if a person of the age of reason
In Confirmation, mercy towards our continued weakness such that we may fight as soldiers of Christ
In Penance, mercy towards transgressions
In Eucharist, mercy and condescending to us to be united to Christ
In Marriage, mercy towards our loneliness, concupiscence, etc
In Extreme Unction, a final mercy as we lay dying, to assure one's passage through the door of death is provided for with much grace.

Now, Ches cannot take back Baptism, Confirmation, or Marriage. Nor can he take back all the times he received Holy Communion or Absolution. He can deny himself further the last two, and in the future, the final one.

But that's stupid.

It's stupid because the God who gave him the grace to convert did so out of mercy and love. And He continues to offer Himself in and with the priests who have and will visit Ches. When they offer to hear his confession, it is Christ acting through and in the priest. When the priest offers him Holy Communion, it is Christ offering Himself. When a priest comes to give him Extreme Unction, it is Christ pleading with a soul to come home to Him.

If the Hebrews could trust God, if Moses could trust God, if Abraham could trust God, if Job could trust God, if any man in history can trust God, then so too can Ches.

Is he worthy of himself? Of course not. To try to be so, frankly, is one of the most wretched lies that Jansenism has tried to foist upon the world whilst couched in Catholic phrasing.

The Hebrews were inveterate idolators.
Moses was a murderer
Abraham made the mistake of Adam in listening to his wife's bad ideas, and then screwed an Egyptian, leading to an ignominious relationship between the offspring of Isaac and Ishmael which continues to this day
Job lost everything and had it worse than Ches or any of us can ever imagine

Ches... dig down in your memory, if you can, and read this in Hebrew, and tell me that there isn't a small voice crying out somewhere inside you pleading, "mercy, mercy!"

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וַיַּעֲבֹ֨ר יְהוָ֥ה׀ עַל־פָּנָיו֮ וַיִּקְרָא֒ יְהוָ֣ה׀ יְהוָ֔ה אֵ֥ל רַח֖וּם וְחַנּ֑וּן אֶ֥רֶךְ אַפַּ֖יִם וְרַב־חֶ֥סֶד וֶאֱמֶֽת׃6

7נֹצֵ֥ר חֶ֨סֶד֙ לָאֲלָפִ֔ים נֹשֵׂ֥א עָוֹ֛ן וָפֶ֖שַׁע וְחַטָּאָ֑ה וְנַקֵּה֙ לֹ֣א יְנַקֶּ֔ה פֹּקֵ֣ד׀ עֲוֹ֣ן אָבֹ֗ות עַל־בָּנִים֙ וְעַל־בְּנֵ֣י בָנִ֔ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֖ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִֽים׃

And if that doesn't work, read it again in English:

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[6] And when he passed before him, he said: O the Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, patient and of much compassion, and true, [7] Who keepest mercy unto thousands: who takest away iniquity, and wickedness, and sin, and no man of himself is innocent before thee. Who renderest the iniquity of the fathers to the children, and to the grandchildren, unto the third and fourth generation.
Exodus 34

Can ya please just have a priest come by, hear your confession, give you Holy Communion in whatever way you can, and share your heart with him?
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Larry on Today at 12:46:51 AM »
Quote
How could you possibly know with certainty that Charity is dead in his soul?  Are you his God?

Mortal Sin.  What dies when you sin mortally?

The Easter Duty was instituted to combat the very heresy he espouses.

No can know if a soul is spiritually alive or dead without a direct revelation from God. That's the teaching of Trent.
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General Catholic Discussion / Re: Paul VI and the new Mass
« Last post by martin88nyc on Today at 12:13:58 AM »
This is one of the first things I noticed after returning to the NOM for the first time after some years. There was no confiteor, sin and hell were vaguely referenced if at all, and justice was only mentioned in the context of social justice of the secular variety. It was a big lovebomb. "God loves you, we love you, you should love you, we're all OK!"

What I don't understand is why people are getting up at 8:00 AM to listen to the same sort of crap they can hear on TV. What's the point?
I would say the Holy Communion is why people are there.

Sure, but I have to wonder if no one addresses sin or hell then shouldn't they be wondering what the Holy Eucharist is for?
Don't forget that there are still many pious souls who understand the faith very well but have no easy access to daily TLM but want to grow spiritually and become saints.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by james03 on Today at 12:03:30 AM »
Quote
How could you possibly know with certainty that Charity is dead in his soul?  Are you his God?

Mortal Sin.  What dies when you sin mortally?

The Easter Duty was instituted to combat the very heresy he espouses.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Gardener on April 26, 2018, 11:33:25 PM »
At the end of the day he needs to remember God loves him and to frequent, as much as possible in whatever way possible, the Sacraments.

If he won't do that, or refuses to do so, there's no amount of rational argument which will sway him.

It's frustrating though when you have said those things over and over and he comes up with excuse after excuse.

At some point he must simply trust.

Today is the feast of Our Lady of Good Counsel. She is a patron for enlightenment. Ches should pray to her for guidance, trust a priest will come to him, listen to the priest with perfect obedience, and trust.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Larry on April 26, 2018, 11:27:19 PM »
Been tried for years.

He's not going to confession or receiving communion.  He is spouting Jansenist (I'd even call it gnostic) heresies.  He just said he's not on psychotropics.  But if you want to post some more "group hug" emoticons, have at it.

For me, I'm done with him, and I've been trying to help him for years.  I took the time to give him a lot of advice in this thread that is solid.  He won't follow it.  That's his choice.  Charity is dead in his soul.

Psychotropic's aren't the only thing that affects the brain. I wasn't on them either, but it didn't stop the near madness I felt while on other drugs, some of which Ches takes(I know because we PMed about it a few years ago).
I doubt you have any knowledge at all about medical conditions that Ches suffers with, but you diagnose him as having a soul devoid of charity and spouting heresies. This can come from a confused mind, not someone who is deliberately trying to offend God. The Man is suffering so much, but what was your advice? I saw some of it. Change your diet. Do exercise. You obviously don't have a clue.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Larry on April 26, 2018, 11:16:50 PM »
So everyone should stop with the tough love crap for at least a little while.

Larry, there was a period of time -- it seems a long time -- when you didn't visit SD much, or at least didn't post much.  I don't know if that time happened to coincide with the two years that more than a dozen of us offered him this:

He's not angry with you. He loves you. He's not out to get you.

and this:

He needs to be hit over the head with the reality that, even if he was the only person in the whole world Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would have died for him alone.

And we did it in spades.

So what you post is really not fair to the many of us who have already done that for two years.  There's a context for the remarks of James and others here.

For example, I know it had occurred to me, and I think it had occurred to Carleen and maybe some others, that medication and/or pain could be causing a major distortion of reality on Ches' part.  We posted such speculation ourselves, giving examples.  But whatever, whenever, however we have posted, the reaction has always been on his part to ignore us and, overall, to reject all of our suggestions.

So, one of two things is happening:

a. He is unable to benefit from our advice, suggestions, support, and prayers, due to physical situations beyond his control

or

b. He is not actually interested in solving the problem.


If it's "a," then he should stop posting until such time that he feels very different than how he currently feels, due to medical relief.

If it's "b," then he should stop "teasing" posters into assuming that he is in fact interested in solving the problem.

Inevitably, however, lay posters on a discussion forum are not nearly in the position to persuade him of the love of Jesus Christ as is Jesus Christ Himself, or one of His ordained representatives.  That's why we have recommended preferring prayer to the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity over analysis from forum members, which is not a "solution" but merely explanations and suggestions, flawed and indirect as all of them are.  Secondly, we have repeatedly suggested home visits by priests, which he admits he has tried and partly rejected. 

Just as God does not force any of us to accept grace, neither can a priest force Ches to accept Holy Communion immediately after Confession.

We have given him support and practical suggestions.  So I repeat:  What you say is not really fair to those of us who have spent many, many hours in this effort, individually and collectively.

I think between the meds and the fact that he's so terrified, it's almost impossible to get through to him. This isn't a rejection of God "full consent of the will" thing. This is almost equivalent to a devout Catholic who gets Alzheimer's and then starts acting out because he no longer has the use of his faculties.

I wasn't attacking you at all, Miriam, but the post by James was not called for. And I've been reading  SD consistently, but there was a long period when I was too ill to post much. I'm very aware of Ches's problems.
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by Lydia Purpuraria on April 26, 2018, 10:26:29 PM »
Been tried for years.

He's not going to confession or receiving communion.  He is spouting Jansenist (I'd even call it gnostic) heresies.  He just said he's not on psychotropics.  But if you want to post some more "group hug" emoticons, have at it.

For me, I'm done with him, and I've been trying to help him for years.  I took the time to give him a lot of advice in this thread that is solid.  He won't follow it.  That's his choice.  Charity is dead in his soul.

 :grouphug:

How could you possibly know with certainty that Charity is dead in his soul?  Are you his God? 

And you just said (what, yesterday?) something like men don't leave men behind.  What happened to that part of your plan?
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Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Does God give us more than we can bear
« Last post by james03 on April 26, 2018, 10:15:19 PM »
Been tried for years.

He's not going to confession or receiving communion.  He is spouting Jansenist (I'd even call it gnostic) heresies.  He just said he's not on psychotropics.  But if you want to post some more "group hug" emoticons, have at it.

For me, I'm done with him, and I've been trying to help him for years.  I took the time to give him a lot of advice in this thread that is solid.  He won't follow it.  That's his choice.  Charity is dead in his soul.
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