Where is Heaven?

[St.Justin]

Since God created the Universe it seems obvious to me that he must exist somewhere else.

[Carleendiane]

Chris, I did not read the whole thread, but I got to thinking about the woman at the well who had been married many times. Jesus asked her, who, after the ressurection, her husband will be. Does that speak to your question?

[christulsa]

Chris, I did not read the whole thread, but I got to thinking about the woman at the well who had been married many times. Jesus asked her, who, after the ressurection, her husband will be. Does that speak to your question?

Maybe.  That story seems to be one of the Scriptural proofs marriage does not continue after heaven, but maybe there's something like marriage in heaven.  I hope so.  I also have a good argument our pets will be in heaven which a friend with a doctorate in Thomistic theology said convinced him!     There is no question the Beatific Vision itself will fulfill all our desires, but when I think of heaven I tend to think about many physical and social realities of this life possibly continuing.  Heaven has always fascinated me.  I tend to think when God recreates heaven and Earth, heaven will be on Earth itself.  A perfect civilization with cities, occupations (without the sweat of the brow), friendships, families, arts and entertainment, food, travel, outdoor adventure.  Not sure if there'll be sex though.  Maybe some kind of quasi-romantic forms of affection.  All this is based on my theory that most peoples of the world have always had natural desires for these "earthly" things in the afterlife because God Himself planted those desires in us, because that is part of His plan.  And that when Scripture says God will grant all our desires in heaven, it seems to mean the desires we have in this life.  But then all these material realities will be drawn into the supernatural life of the Bleased Trinity in the Beatific Vision, just as the body and soul will be reunited in a glorified way, and how God will create a New Earth and the New Heaven.

[Obrien]

Maybe the book "In Heaven We Know Our Own" by Fr. Blot would answer some of your questions.

[Carleendiane]

So....heaven is where God is.  I think we will have special relationships in heaven. Our children and spouse. One thing I know but have a hard time grasping is that there will be relatives we are close to that won't make it due to their own choices. There is no sorrow, disappointment, no more burdens or sufferings. So...what about those that do not make it? We won't be sad? Won't miss them? We will understand God's justice, which may have been very mysterious to us in this life. But still, no sadness, no sorrow or pain?

Plus, in heaven can we pray and beg mercy for family member for a quick release from purgatory?  We will certainly rejoice in the fact that they made it to purgatory because we know that means they will sometime make heaven, but will we be able to pray for them? In heaven there is no fasting and sacrifice for the poor souls, but what about those special souls? Will we be powerless to help? Or did that end upon our death?

[Carleendiane]

Chris, I did not read the whole thread, but I got to thinking about the woman at the well who had been married many times. Jesus asked her, who, after the ressurection, her husband will be. Does that speak to your question?

Maybe.  That story seems to be one of the Scriptural proofs marriage does not continue after heaven, but maybe there's something like marriage in heaven.  I hope so.  I also have a good argument our pets will be in heaven which a friend with a doctorate in Thomistic theology said convinced him!     There is no question the Beatific Vision itself will fulfill all our desires, but when I think of heaven I tend to think about many physical and social realities of this life possibly continuing.  Heaven has always fascinated me.  I tend to think when God recreates heaven and Earth, heaven will be on Earth itself.  A perfect civilization with cities, occupations (without the sweat of the brow), friendships, families, arts and entertainment, food, travel, outdoor adventure.  Not sure if there'll be sex though.  Maybe some kind of quasi-romantic forms of affection.  All this is based on my theory that most peoples of the world have always had natural desires for these "earthly" things in the afterlife because God Himself planted those desires in us, because that is part of His plan.  And that when Scripture says God will grant all our desires in heaven, it seems to mean the desires we have in this life.  But then all these material realities will be drawn into the supernatural life of the Bleased Trinity in the Beatific Vision, just as the body and soul will be reunited in a glorified way, and how God will create a New Earth and the New Heaven.

That's funny, because He asked who would be her husband, making me think the WILL be husband's and wives in heaven.

[christulsa]

So....heaven is where God is. 

I like that...and would add that place where God is present to the saints in a special, sacred way different than He is present in nature or within Himself.  Like in a church or the holy of holies. 

I think we will have special relationships in heaven. Our children and spouse. One thing I know but have a hard time grasping is that there will be relatives we are close to that won't make it due to their own choices. There is no sorrow, disappointment, no more burdens or sufferings. So...what about those that do not make it? We won't be sad? Won't miss them? We will understand God's justice, which may have been very mysterious to us in this life. But still, no sadness, no sorrow or pain?

Lol.  We might be the ones who dont make it.  Just joshing.  I know.  I cant imagine my mom or dad or wife in hell and me in heaven.  Growing up my dad was the practicing Catholic and my mom a non practicing Lutheran.  He (and me) would try to get her to go to Mass and be Catholic.  She did go sometimes but hasn't converted (yet).  And Id have this fear of me in heaven looking down on her descending into hell.  It could end up the other way around....I guess the fear and sorrow about our loved ones at risk of going to hell is something we're suppose to experience in this life to help save their soul, and ours.

Plus, in heaven can we pray and beg mercy for family member for a quick release from purgatory?  We will certainly rejoice in the fact that they made it to purgatory because we know that means they will sometime make heaven, but will we be able to pray for them? In heaven there is no fasting and sacrifice for the poor souls, but what about those special souls? Will we be powerless to help? Or did that end upon our death?

Im almost done with the purgatory book based on the lives of the saints.  It says the saints in heaven pray for the souls in purgatory to give them consolation and strength, but only us here can remit their temporal punishment due to sin. 

[Daniel]

Chris, I did not read the whole thread, but I got to thinking about the woman at the well who had been married many times. Jesus asked her, who, after the ressurection, her husband will be. Does that speak to your question?

I might be missing something, but I don't remember that ever happening.
In John's gospel, there is a woman who has had five "husbands," and she is currently living with a man who is not truly her husband. Christ, knowing this, tells her to summon her husband. The woman replies, "I can't do that because I have no husband". Christ then says, "You're right, you have no husband, for the man you live with is not your husband". (I don't have a source, but I believe Christ said this primarily to prove that he was a prophet with supernatural knowledge, and secondarily as a condemnation of adultery and/or polygamy.) But nowhere in this passage does Christ say anything about how things will be "after the resurrection."
In an unrelated passage, the Sadducees asked Christ "if a woman is widowed several times and remarries each time, who will her husband be after the resurrection?" (they asked that because they did not believe in the resurrection, and were trying to disprove it by presenting a contradiction), but Christ answered with "after the resurrection no one will marry or be married, but everyone will be like the angels." (Again, I don't have a source, but I believe the correct in interpretation of this is basically, "There's no contradiction. Nobody's going to be married after the resurrection.").

One thing I know but have a hard time grasping is that there will be relatives we are close to that won't make it due to their own choices. There is no sorrow, disappointment, no more burdens or sufferings. So...what about those that do not make it? We won't be sad? Won't miss them? We will understand God's justice, which may have been very mysterious to us in this life. But still, no sadness, no sorrow or pain?

Regardless of whether you were close to them in this life, you will hate the damned with a divine hatred. Their punishment will bring you joy, just as revenge here on earth brings us a passing joy. (The difference being, the hatred and revenge experienced in heaven is perfectly conformed to the will of God. It is perfectly ordered and non-sinful.)

I also have a good argument our pets will be in heaven which a friend with a doctorate in Thomistic theology said convinced him!     There is no question the Beatific Vision itself will fulfill all our desires, but when I think of heaven I tend to think about many physical and social realities of this life possibly continuing.  Heaven has always fascinated me.  I tend to think when God recreates heaven and Earth, heaven will be on Earth itself.  A perfect civilization with cities, occupations (without the sweat of the brow), friendships, families, arts and entertainment, food, travel, outdoor adventure.  Not sure if there'll be sex though.  Maybe some kind of quasi-romantic forms of affection.  All this is based on my theory that most peoples of the world have always had natural desires for these "earthly" things in the afterlife because God Himself planted those desires in us, because that is part of His plan.  And that when Scripture says God will grant all our desires in heaven, it seems to mean the desires we have in this life.  But then all these material realities will be drawn into the supernatural life of the Bleased Trinity in the Beatific Vision, just as the body and soul will be reunited in a glorified way, and how God will create a New Earth and the New Heaven.

I acknowledge that heaven is a physical place, and perhaps a social place, but I don't think it's going to be as you described.
Suppose I hate dogs and never want to see another dog again. But my best friend loves dogs and he never wants to be without his dog. And I want to see my best friend at times, and my best friend wants to see me at times. And the two of us are in heaven.
So, how would that go down? Either I see my best friend who has his dog with him and I'm not happy, or I see my best friend who doesn't have his dog with him and he's not happy, or neither of us ever see each other and neither of us are happy. There's no way to make everyone happy.
I think the simple answer is, since the only thing that really matters is God, then once we attain God we won't care about anything else.

[Carleendiane]

Thank y8u, Daniel. wow, did I have that screwed up! Now I get it!

[aquinas138]

The Eastern Churches certainly have the tradition of marriages continuing into eternity.

Are we talking eastern Catholic, eastern Orthodox, or both? Because to hold that marriage continues after death seems to directly contradict the teaching that marriage ends upon death. If marriage did not end with death then a widow or a widower who remarries would be committing adultery. Besides that, I'm pretty sure that Christ was talking about marriage in itself, not romance. After the resurrection there will be no need for marriage anyway.

Both, at least traditionally. The problem, I think, is that marriage theology developed very differently in East and West. The whole theological method is different, and since East and West began living in a certain isolation from each other towards the end of the first millennium, it's not surprising that this turned into differences. The East thinks of marriage in the way it thinks about resurrected humans - there is certainly a continuity with pre-resurrection life (we still remain who we are, and our glorified bodies are our bodies), but certainly there is a discontinuity as well (Christ's resurrected body, for instance, passed through locked doors). The Eastern idea with respect to marriage is that certain aspects of marriage (union of bodies, procreation) belong to earthly life, but in the resurrection, there are aspects that continue into eternity (a certain union of souls). This is why the Eastern tradition continues to discourage (but not forbid) remarriage after a spouse's death, and one reason why married clergy are not permitted to remarry. The Latin tradition focused on the earthly "stuff" of marriage as marriage, and so Latins reasonably say that marriage (thought of in this way) ends with the death of a spouse. St. John Chrysostom's Letter to a Young Widow is interesting reading in connection with the Eastern idea.

Related to this idea is that in the Orthodox Churches the canonical number of permitted marriages includes marrying after the death of a spouse, not just divorce. So in the Roman Church, there is no limit to the number of times a person may marry after the death of a spouse — a man could have had two marriages declared null and also be a widower four times over and still be permitted to marry again. In the Orthodox Church, a layman can marry three times, no matter whether marriages ended with death or an ecclesiastically-tolerated divorce; a fourth marriage is forbidden. Not arguing at all for their praxis, just passing along an interesting fact.

[christulsa]

Chris, I did not read the whole thread, but I got to thinking about the woman at the well who had been married many times. Jesus asked her, who, after the ressurection, her husband will be. Does that speak to your question?

I might be missing something, but I don't remember that ever happening.
In John's gospel, there is a woman who has had five "husbands," and she is currently living with a man who is not truly her husband. Christ, knowing this, tells her to summon her husband. The woman replies, "I can't do that because I have no husband". Christ then says, "You're right, you have no husband, for the man you live with is not your husband". (I don't have a source, but I believe Christ said this primarily to prove that he was a prophet with supernatural knowledge, and secondarily as a condemnation of adultery and/or polygamy.) But nowhere in this passage does Christ say anything about how things will be "after the resurrection."
In an unrelated passage, the Sadducees asked Christ "if a woman is widowed several times and remarries each time, who will her husband be after the resurrection?" (they asked that because they did not believe in the resurrection, and were trying to disprove it by presenting a contradiction), but Christ answered with "after the resurrection no one will marry or be married, but everyone will be like the angels." (Again, I don't have a source, but I believe the correct in interpretation of this is basically, "There's no contradiction. Nobody's going to be married after the resurrection.").

One thing I know but have a hard time grasping is that there will be relatives we are close to that won't make it due to their own choices. There is no sorrow, disappointment, no more burdens or sufferings. So...what about those that do not make it? We won't be sad? Won't miss them? We will understand God's justice, which may have been very mysterious to us in this life. But still, no sadness, no sorrow or pain?

Regardless of whether you were close to them in this life, you will hate the damned with a divine hatred. Their punishment will bring you joy, just as revenge here on earth brings us a passing joy. (The difference being, the hatred and revenge experienced in heaven is perfectly conformed to the will of God. It is perfectly ordered and non-sinful.)

I also have a good argument our pets will be in heaven which a friend with a doctorate in Thomistic theology said convinced him!     There is no question the Beatific Vision itself will fulfill all our desires, but when I think of heaven I tend to think about many physical and social realities of this life possibly continuing.  Heaven has always fascinated me.  I tend to think when God recreates heaven and Earth, heaven will be on Earth itself.  A perfect civilization with cities, occupations (without the sweat of the brow), friendships, families, arts and entertainment, food, travel, outdoor adventure.  Not sure if there'll be sex though.  Maybe some kind of quasi-romantic forms of affection.  All this is based on my theory that most peoples of the world have always had natural desires for these "earthly" things in the afterlife because God Himself planted those desires in us, because that is part of His plan.  And that when Scripture says God will grant all our desires in heaven, it seems to mean the desires we have in this life.  But then all these material realities will be drawn into the supernatural life of the Bleased Trinity in the Beatific Vision, just as the body and soul will be reunited in a glorified way, and how God will create a New Earth and the New Heaven.

I acknowledge that heaven is a physical place, and perhaps a social place, but I don't think it's going to be as you described.
Suppose I hate dogs and never want to see another dog again. But my best friend loves dogs and he never wants to be without his dog. And I want to see my best friend at times, and my best friend wants to see me at times. And the two of us are in heaven.
So, how would that go down? Either I see my best friend who has his dog with him and I'm not happy, or I see my best friend who doesn't have his dog with him and he's not happy, or neither of us ever see each other and neither of us are happy. There's no way to make everyone happy.
I think the simple answer is, since the only thing that really matters is God, then once we attain God we won't care about anything else.

Well not liking dogs seems like something that would disappear in heaven because dogs are Gods creation.  The perfected person would enjoy all created things.

Call me a materialist (I consider myself very Aristotelean) but the supernatural reward of heaven by itself, being completely fulfilled by God alone, still doesn't satisfy my desires for created, physical things.  Because God put those desires in us as part of our nature.  Theologians have solved this saying we only absolutely need God, but accidentally created things.  We would be fulfilled just being absorbed in the spirit into the inner divine life of the Holy Trinity and nothing else.  But we know heaven is a physical place and there is communion among the saints and angels so we will care about other things besides God.  And since the Bible says God will recreate Earth, and our social nature is to build and organize things into a community, it makes more sense to me that heaven will be a somewhat Earth-like civilization than like a mystical place in the heavens where we spend all our time in ecstasy, which seems like the common visual image.

[aquinas138]

christulsa,

I understand where you're coming from about physicality in heaven. I think we sometimes don't do justice to how beyond our comprehension heaven is. There must be some place for bliss in the body; otherwise, why is it resurrected? Though heavenly bliss may primarily consist of the Beatific Vision, still, it seems the joy of the saints is complete after the General Judgment, when their psychosomatic unity is restored. Of course, I don't want to press the linearity of time in heaven too much.

[Carleendiane]

Chris, husband and I have discussed this. If there will only be one dog in heaven, it will be my dog, Logan. He is practically perfect in every way. Just sayin....Don't be too hopeful. We heard God loves Australian shepherd the best. So we remain hopeful.

[christulsa]

Chris, husband and I have discussed this. If there will only be one dog in heaven, it will be my dog, Logan. He is practically perfect in every way. Just sayin....Don't be too hopeful. We heard God loves Australian shepherd the best. So we remain hopeful.

"My" dog is a Dauchshund named Peanut and "the wife's" dog is a white Japanese Spitz named Snowy.  I brought them to the SSPX chapel once for a blessing.  I think some people thought that was kind of weird.   
I figure if I make it to heaven God will grant my desire to take Peanut with me, by recreating her in heaven.  She'll be lucky to get to go to heaven even though she doesnt have a soul. 

[christulsa]

christulsa,

I understand where you're coming from about physicality in heaven. I think we sometimes don't do justice to how beyond our comprehension heaven is. There must be some place for bliss in the body; otherwise, why is it resurrected? Though heavenly bliss may primarily consist of the Beatific Vision, still, it seems the joy of the saints is complete after the General Judgment, when their psychosomatic unity is restored. Of course, I don't want to press the linearity of time in heaven too much.

I wonder how physical heaven is like right now with saints not having their resurrected bodies yet?  In purgatory they have the experience of having a body with five senses in a physical place, so Id imagine the saints right now do too.  A mystery how spirit bodies would work so to speak.