I need a source on this

Started by Daniel, July 21, 2017, 07:30:56 PM

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christulsa

Quote from: Daniel on July 22, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
All right, new question. Does anyone have any advice on how I can learn the natural law without asking specific questions to a priest and without reading any books on the subject? Because I really don't have access to a priest, and books don't seem to help me (in fact, they often make things worse).

Are you asking how to better form your conscience about morality?  Or you want to understand natural law ethics?

If the former, frequent confession and communion.  Use a good traditional, simple guide to examining your conscience.  More prayer. Especially the daily rosary.  Just living a better Catholic life should help you understand morals better.

If the latter, maybe some online videos or audios explaining the natural law.  Not so much academically but the principles and how to apply them in your daily life.  But the best source of natural law are the Ten Commandments, so at least know the basic catechism teachings on them, like from the Baltimore catechism which is online.

Does this help?

Gardener

Quote from: Matto on July 22, 2017, 11:29:22 AM
So the priest says you can only confess four mortal sins? But what would happen if you committed five mortal sins?

Edit: I think Daniel got bad advice unless there is a misunderstanding. I would not be comfortable going to confession and not confessing all the mortal sins I was aware of. The Baltimore Catechism says we must confess all our mortal sins and if we knowingly leave one out, none of our sins are forgiven and we commit another mortal sin of sacrilege. It does not say that with the priest's permission we can only confess four and leave out all the others.

I can understand a priest telling you that something is not a mortal sin so you shouldn't confess it in the future but to limit you to the number of mortal sins you can confess, as if it wasn't possible to commit more than four seems dangerous to me.

You have admitted before that you have a history of scrupulosity, which frankly makes me think your "advice" is like a crackhead telling another crackhead how to get clean. Your "advice" is exactly the sort of thing which perpetuates the scruples in a person. Stop it.

The Baltimore Catechism is hardly the source to go to on this sort of thing, particularly because it's a basic manual of religion and doesn't get into the nitty gritty of particular cases as concerns someone w/ scruples and all the in depth moral theology of it.

One would assume that Daniel's priest knows him well, having to hear his confessions every week, and he probably knows Daniel isn't even committing mortal sins, or if so they are few and far between.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Non Nobis

#17
Daniel,

The Baltimore Catechism on scruples (first as it applies to a general confession):

http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson20.htm
QuoteQ. 830. When should a General Confession be made?

A. A general confession:
   1. Is necessary when we are certain that our past confessions were bad;
   2. It is useful on special occasions in our lives when some change in our way of living is about to take place;
   3. It is hurtful and must not be made when persons are scrupulous.
[note this is an EXCEPTION to 1.]

Q. 831. What are the signs of scruples and the remedy against them?

A. The signs of scruples are chiefly:
   1. To be always dissatisfied with our confessions;
   2. To be self-willed in deciding what is sinful and what is not. The chief remedy against them is to follow exactly the advice of the confessor without questioning the reason or utility of his advice.

When general requirements are given, they might not apply exactly in ABSOLUTELY EVERY CASE.  The exceptions may not be pointed out explicitly everywhere. The rules for confession of sins by one with scruples are an exception to the general rules you are reading about and falsely assuming must apply exactly to you.

Note the catechism doesn't say "you PERSONALLY must go into the nitty gritty of your sins, and study the natural law, and ask questions about sin", it says the opposite:  FOLLOW EXACTLY THE ADVICE OF THE CONFESSOR.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Matto

#18
Quote from: Gardener on July 22, 2017, 02:48:46 PMYou have admitted before that you have a history of scrupulosity, which frankly makes me think your "advice" is like a crackhead telling another crackhead how to get clean. Your "advice" is exactly the sort of thing which perpetuates the scruples in a person. Stop it.
Stop it? I see what I thought was the encouragement of making bad confessions so I gave my opinion. If you disagree, go ahead, I won't stop you. And yes, when I first converted I was strict about the books I read and the movies I watched.
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

Non Nobis

#19
Quote from: Matto on July 22, 2017, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 22, 2017, 02:48:46 PMYou have admitted before that you have a history of scrupulosity, which frankly makes me think your "advice" is like a crackhead telling another crackhead how to get clean. Your "advice" is exactly the sort of thing which perpetuates the scruples in a person. Stop it.
Stop it? I see what I thought was the encouragement of making bad confessions so I gave my opinion. If you disagree, go ahead, I won't stop you. And yes, when I first converted I was strict about the books I read and the movies I watched.

See my post prior to yours. Do you think the Baltimore Catechism is encouraging bad confessions when it says that people with scruples should not make a general confession?

You're not given free reign to sin when you have scruples, you're given orders not to WORRY, in particular about confessing everything - as if God won't forgive you unless you give the priest an exact list (or unless you have a complete list in your own mind).  Trust in the priest and in God's mercy.  When you are honestly trying to be good (which doesn't mean analyzing every last thing), worry is always a bad sign.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Daniel

#20
Quote from: christulsa on July 22, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
Quote from: Daniel on July 22, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
All right, new question. Does anyone have any advice on how I can learn the natural law without asking specific questions to a priest and without reading any books on the subject? Because I really don't have access to a priest, and books don't seem to help me (in fact, they often make things worse).

Are you asking how to better form your conscience about morality?  Or you want to understand natural law ethics?

If the former, frequent confession and communion.  Use a good traditional, simple guide to examining your conscience.  More prayer. Especially the daily rosary.  Just living a better Catholic life should help you understand morals better.

If the latter, maybe some online videos or audios explaining the natural law.  Not so much academically but the principles and how to apply them in your daily life.  But the best source of natural law are the Ten Commandments, so at least know the basic catechism teachings on them, like from the Baltimore catechism which is online.

Does this help?
Well, there's two things:
1) Some stuff that keeps coming up in my everyday life, and it is not explained anywhere in the catechism whether it is sinful or not. It seems like it could be sinful. But there's no solid proof one way or the other. So I have no idea what to do.
and
2) Some stuff is stated outright (in the catechism or in other books, or things that priests have stated in the past), but what's stated sounds absurd. And the Church's teachings are not absurd. So, there's a problem: I can't tell whether I'm simply reading these things incorrectly (and am free to ignore them), or whether I am in fact reading them correctly (and must submit to them even though they don't seem to make much sense).
It would really help if the reasoning behind the teachings was explained as well, but that's often not the case (especially with the catechism, since it's just an overview without depth...)

One priest told me that if I have a question, I should seek out my priest's advice in confession. But that's usually not an option. (Due to time constraints, my confessions are always rushed enough as it is. I get in, confess my sins, receive absolution, and get out. No time for additional questions.) The other thing I could do is ask the priest outside confession. And I do that sometimes, but again, this isn't always an option. I am far too ignorant, and it's not the priest's job to be my personal tutor who can extensively teach me everything I need to know about the Church's teachings.

But the bigger problem is, at this point I don't even think I can go to confession. Because my resolve to stop sinning is unclear. There are many things that I do all the time that I think are sinful, yet I do them anyway, because I do not know that they are sinful. If I was convinced that they were in fact sinful then I could simply resolve to stop. But I do not know that they are sinful, and they are pleasing to me, and I'm pretty sure I am not supposed to uproot my entire life out of fear that everything in my life is a sin. Still, a lot of it probably IS sinful. So if I go to confession without the intention to stop these things then I will most likely invalidate the confession and commit sacrilege, by having insufficient contrition.

Non Nobis

Quote from: Daniel on July 22, 2017, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: christulsa on July 22, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
Quote from: Daniel on July 22, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
All right, new question. Does anyone have any advice on how I can learn the natural law without asking specific questions to a priest and without reading any books on the subject? Because I really don't have access to a priest, and books don't seem to help me (in fact, they often make things worse).

Are you asking how to better form your conscience about morality?  Or you want to understand natural law ethics?

If the former, frequent confession and communion.  Use a good traditional, simple guide to examining your conscience.  More prayer. Especially the daily rosary.  Just living a better Catholic life should help you understand morals better.

If the latter, maybe some online videos or audios explaining the natural law.  Not so much academically but the principles and how to apply them in your daily life.  But the best source of natural law are the Ten Commandments, so at least know the basic catechism teachings on them, like from the Baltimore catechism which is online.

Does this help?
Well, there's two things:
1) Some stuff that keeps coming up in my everyday life, and it is not explained anywhere in the catechism whether it is sinful or not. It seems like it could be sinful. But there's no solid proof one way or the other. So I have no idea what to do.
and
2) Some stuff is stated outright (in the catechism or in other books, or things that priests have stated in the past), but what's stated sounds absurd. And the Church's teachings are not absurd. So, there's a problem: I can't tell whether I'm simply reading these things incorrectly (and am free to ignore them), or whether I am in fact reading them correctly (and must submit to them even though they don't seem to make much sense).
It would really help if the reasoning behind the teachings was explained as well, but that's often not the case (especially with the catechism, since it's just an overview without depth...)

One priest told me that if I have a question, I should seek out my priest's advice in confession. But that's usually not an option. (Due to time constraints, my confessions are always rushed enough as it is. I get in, confess my sins, receive absolution, and get out. No time for additional questions.) The other thing I could do is ask the priest outside confession. And I do that sometimes, but again, this isn't always an option. I am far too ignorant, and it's not the priest's job to be my personal tutor who can extensively teach me everything I need to know about the Church's teachings.

But the bigger problem is, at this point I don't even think I can go to confession. Because my resolve to stop sinning is unclear. There are many things that I do all the time that I think are sinful, yet I do them anyway, because I do not know that they are sinful. If I did know that they were in fact sinful then I could simply resolve to stop. But I do not know that they are sinful, and they are pleasing to me, and I'm pretty sure I am not supposed to uproot my entire life out of fear that everything in my life is a sin. Still, a lot of it probably IS sinful. So if I go to confession without the intention to stop these things then I will most likely invalidate the confession and commit sacrilege, by having insufficient contrition.

You are putting following your own thinking to the Nth degree above humility and trust and obedience, and not seeing that your own thinking may not only false but diseased (OCD).  I can't tell that you have read what we have posted or other writings on scrupulosity, let alone your priest.

I'm sorry if I am being harsh.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Daniel

Quote from: Non Nobis on July 22, 2017, 03:50:50 PM
You are putting following your own thinking to the Nth degree above humility and trust and obedience, and not seeing that your own thinking may not only false but diseased (OCD).  I can't tell that you have read what we have posted or other writings on scrupulosity, let alone your priest.

I'm sorry if I am being harsh.
I'll trust my priest from now on, but so far he has only been advising me in regard to scrupulosity. Not in regard to the moral law. Most of the questions in my mind are things which I have never even had the opportunity to ask him about...

Non Nobis

#23
Quote from: Daniel on July 22, 2017, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Non Nobis on July 22, 2017, 03:50:50 PM
You are putting following your own thinking to the Nth degree above humility and trust and obedience, and not seeing that your own thinking may not only false but diseased (OCD).  I can't tell that you have read what we have posted or other writings on scrupulosity, let alone your priest.

I'm sorry if I am being harsh.
I'll trust my priest from now on, but so far he has only been advising me in regard to scrupulosity. Not in regard to the moral law. Most of the questions in my mind are things which I have never even had the opportunity to ask him about...

The problem is that while you are in fact still scrupulous thinking about the moral law so much may be (probably is) something that your priest would advise against.  Such thinking is unlikely to be done in the abstract in your case, but with your own possible subjective guilt in mind. It comes out of and feeds right into scruples.

But ask your priest about this too!
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Mono no aware

Quote from: Gardener on July 22, 2017, 10:24:49 AMYes, yes, that doesn't mean the priest is some oracle who knows all.

Honest question.  There are ten commandments.  How does the priest know in advance that a person will not break more than four of them?

christulsa

Quote from: Pon de Replay on July 22, 2017, 05:21:02 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 22, 2017, 10:24:49 AMYes, yes, that doesn't mean the priest is some oracle who knows all.

Honest question.  There are ten commandments.  How does the priest know in advance that a person will not break more than four of them?

But I dont think it is an absolute rule for a valid confession that the penitent tell all mortal sins and number and kind.  Like if there is a circumstance beyond the persons control that prevents them.  A dying person who cant talk.  A field of soldiers about to go into battle.  Canon law and moral theology does give priests certain leeway for confessions in extraordinary circumstances.  Perhaps Daniel's confessor knows he tends to confess a long list of sins worried they are mortal sins, when in reality it's never been more than a few.  I could imagine how him mentioning more than four mortal sins is in practice listing more sins he is uncertain about.  So Daniel is not fully in control of his scrupulosity in the confessional which prevents him from being able to objectively mention all possible mortal sins, according to the judgment of his confessor.  Again Id clarify his 4 mortal sin rule.  He may say just to confess mortal sins that he already knows certainly are mortal sins (like using the Lord's name in vein).  If you're worried glancing at the girl was a mortal sin, don't confess it.

My last thought is, check out how saints who suffered from scruples overcame it and do what they did.  Pray to them for help.  Maybe St Therese of Liseaux or St Alphonsus Liguori (I think). And just whatever you do, dont follow Martin Luther whose scruples drove him crazy about the Catholic Faith.

Mono no aware

I appreciate the dimension of a person being scrupulous.  But a scrupulous person is still human, and presumably capable of committing more than four mortal sins in a period of weeks.

Matto

Quote from: christulsa on July 22, 2017, 06:02:35 PMMy last thought is, check out how saints who suffered from scruples overcame it and do what they did.  Pray to them for help.  Maybe St Therese of Liseaux or St Alphonsus Liguori (I think).
Why would anyone do that? That would be like a crackhead asking another crackhead for advice on how to get clean. Or so I am told.
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

Lydia Purpuraria

#28
Quote from: Matto on July 22, 2017, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 22, 2017, 02:48:46 PMYou have admitted before that you have a history of scrupulosity, which frankly makes me think your "advice" is like a crackhead telling another crackhead how to get clean. Your "advice" is exactly the sort of thing which perpetuates the scruples in a person. Stop it.
Stop it? I see what I thought was the encouragement of making bad confessions so I gave my opinion. If you disagree, go ahead, I won't stop you. And yes, when I first converted I was strict about the books I read and the movies I watched.

Is this what he's considering a "history of scrupulosity"?  Being strict about books and movies?  Sounds more like a sincere conversion to me.

Matto

#29
Quote from: Lydia Purpuraria on July 22, 2017, 06:27:40 PMIs this what he's considering a "history of scrupulosity"?  Being strict about books and movies?  Sounds more like a sincere conversion to me.
On this forum I specifically talked about how I had  a "scrupulous phase" where I threw out a lot of "bad" books and movies and that now I am less strict so I would not have thrown all of them away. And I also talked about how when I was a new convert I was very strict about those things, like no rock and roll music and that now I am more lax about it. I believe this is what he is talking about because I mentioned it recently on this forum. Unless I made other posts about it on other forums that I don't remember right now that he remembers. I have had some problems with scruples in my life, but not as bad as many cases I have heard about, and I have had no problems of that kind recently.
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..