More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)

[Gerard]

I noticed another article on the Remnant concerning Fatima as a way to condemn the practice of taking communion under both species of bread and wine.

Fatima seems to be the reference point for some traditionalists as if all of the faith and the Church begins with Fatima.  I can see the parallel with the Novus Ordo fans who believe the Church started with Vatican II. 

The gist of the article is to make reference to the Angel of Fatima giving communion to the children in different  forms but not both forms for any.  The wine to the younger children and the bread to Lucia. 

http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3234-communion-under-both-kinds

The first red flag for me is the fact of the Angel giving communion at all.  Not specifically for a doctrinal reason, but from the point of view of someone condemning modern practices, its hardly useful to cite an "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion" in a pre-Vatican II event.  The doctrinal issue would be...since the ordained alone should be the distributers of Holy Communion and that means men alone should be
distributing Holy Communion, why is a genderless Angel non-ordained giving Holy Communion? 


"As the Angel gave Holy Communion to the three Children, only the eldest, Lucia (age 10), received the Sacred Host as she had already made her First Holy Communion.   But the younger children, Francisco (age and Jacinta (age 7), having never made their First Holy Communion, drank the Precious Blood of Christ from the Chalice.  Unlike the Protestant practice of eating bread along with drinking grape juice or wine, the Angel did not give both the Sacred Host and the Precious Blood to any of the children.  Lucia, and only Lucia, received the Host.   Francisco and Jacinta, and only them, received from the Chalice.

As the Angel gave the Chalice to Jacinta and Francisco, he said: "Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men.  Repair their crimes and console your God."  The Angel was directly and correctly indicating that both the Body and Blood of Christ were contained in the Chalice."

Someone help me out here.  Lucia has already received her first Holy Communion, so she take the Eucharist in the form of bread. 

But since the younger kids haven't yet had their Holy Communion (and we can presume their first Confession)  an ANGEL is going give them their FIRST HOLY COMMUNIONin the form of WINE  without their parents' or Godparents' consent

And further on we read the kids automatically have scruples about the incident due to the mercurial decision of the Angel to refuse them the same thing in one form because they haven't yet had their first Holy Communion so, the Angel will give them their first Holy Communion in the other form.   

"When the Angel disappeared, along with the Chalice, Francisco asked his older cousin, Lucia, whether he and his sister had received Holy Communion since they did not receive a Host. Lucia affirmed that they did indeed receive Holy Communion.  Lucia responded correctly since in either the Sacred Host or in the Precious Blood, Jesus is really and truly entirely Present.  This confirms the centuries-old practice of receiving only the Consecrated Host at a Traditional Latin Mass.  It confirms that our Eucharistic Lord is really and truly Present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Host alone.  One does not have to "drink from the cup," as they now say, in order to receive the Precious Blood of Christ, as it is contained in the Sacred Host."


One of the comments in the discussion after the article sums up the problem for me regarding glaring problems with Fatima. 

"There is so much symbolism in the Angel of Portugal's giving Holy Communion to the three children of Fatima in form and in the children's age and in species that I dare not attempt to analyze the event. This revelation, coming from the Blessed Trinity, is too sublime not to take very seriously."

Throughout the article it's a relentless reference to "what Fatima is teaching us today."  It's become its own religion within traditional and conservative Catholic circles.  Trads and conservatives of a certain mind are talking of Fatima the way John Paul II would squeeze  Gaudium et Spes into any conversation he could squeeze it into.  It's the same way the Charismatics have the Holy Ghost saving their toast from landing jam-side down if it gets dropped. 

The whole article is really a train wreck of lopsided thinking, trying to rationalize what, if it were being reported from Medjugorje would be zeroed in on by trads like a smart bomb.  But "Fatima" gives it cover.  Whether this is another "tall tale" that really has nothing to do with Fatima or whether it is an authentic record of the event, in either case, this is problematic and should raise severe doubts regarding the orthodoxy and integrity of the alleged events and the faith. 

[Gerard]

My post on the Remnant for archival purposes.

So, let me get this straight.  The claim here is, the Angel doesn't give Francisco and Jacinta the Holy Eucharist in the form of bread, because they haven't yet received their first Holy Communion.  And this genderless, non-ordained "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion"  then gives these children their First Holy Communion (without first Penance) and he gives it to them in the form of Wine???? And without the consent or knowledge of the parents or Godparents if need be?  And the kids have scruples and doubts a minute after the "Angel" departs?  All to teach a small minority of Catholics a hundred years later that Latin Rite Catholics should not do what Latin Rite Catholics did centuries before and intinction is out the door for Latin Rite Catholics anyway? (what was sacred then is not sacred now?)   Are we also to draw from this that Extraordinaray Ministers of Holy Communion are okay and First Communion without First Penance preceding it is also okay?  And parents and priests are not to be the authorities on when and how the Firsts of Communion and Penance are to be given?   But if the parents and parish are to be involved, you simply override it by giving the kids the same consubstantial God in the form of Wine.  Sorry, it didn't happen, not if the Catholic Church is true.  If this had been Medjugorje, trads would have been all over these problems in the narrative.  But if you put "Fatima" in front of it, the whole Deposit of Faith can be up for grabs and "understood through the lens of Fatima" the way John Paul II viewed the whole deposit of Faith "through Vatican II."   Have the courage to hold onto the unadulterated doctrine of the Church and view Fatima as if you or you parents or grandparents had never heard about it, or if it was a modern apparition and the serious doctrinal problems with it will suddenly sprint into high relief.   I wonder if this time, this post will be allowed to stand and not be marked as spam like my previous posts.  I'm double posting this on Suscipe Domine for safe keeping. 

 

[Clare]

Interesting.

It doesn't make sense. "This child has received communion before, so I'll give her the Host; these two haven't, so I'll give them the Precious Blood." What is the reasoning behind that??

Maybe the angel thought that the younger two might be gluten-intolerant! 

[awkwardcustomer]

At last.  Someone is analysing Fatima from a theological standpoint - and finding Fatima wanting.

Take a bow, Gerard.

Why has it taken so many decades for these points to be raised?  An angel giving Holy Communion to 3 peasant children?  As a convert, when first told this I assumed that since it was Trads saying it, it had to be good and true!!!

Someone needs to compile all these arguments into a book. It would sell. Prople would buy it just to refute it.

[Quaremerepulisti]

Besides the theological problems the whole article is just really, REALLY stupid.  Example: Communion under both kinds for the laity is a Protestant practice except when it isn't (Eastern Catholic rites).

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

As a convert, when first told this I assumed that since it was Trads saying it, it had to be good and true!!!

I'm a cradle Catholic and thought the same, through my novus ordo days and especially after finding the TLM and traditional practice, since so many traditional Catholics do indeed hold Fatima as a kind of revelation. 

I believe this is why I'm struggling with the rejection of F1 (F2 just doesn't stand up to scrutiny).  The tales of the apparitions, wording of the prayers conveyed, courage of the children, secular accounts of the Miracle of the Sun, incorruptible bodies, etc., seem authentic.  However, I'm utilizing faith with gut feeling, which is fallible.  To this end, I straddle skepticism with an objective eye, open to persuasion against rejection.

While OLOL has always been my treasured apparition, what Catholic has not been saturated in Fatima?  We love the BVM, and are spiritually and emotionally attached to OLOF, so naturally we cringe at the idea that any of it is false, not to mention, good Heavens, the ramifications!  Surely this is why we are scandalized at any doubts directed at the official story?

Gerard, I read this late last night, when you posted it, and went to sleep praying about Fatima. My auto signature is consolation of my most dire worry in these diabolical days, and  my most heartfelt prayer not to be deceived. 

[martin88nyc]

Everything is possible

[Innocent Smith]

I've been a critic of Fatima for over 10 years now. And I think I have even raised the Angel as "extraordinary minister of the Eucharist" problem as well. Either way, good job, Gerard.

Allow me to be blunt. Since I've said it all before and since Gerard is taking the time point it out a specific event in a very precise, if not, lawyerly fashion.

This religion of Fatima, for all intents and purposes, is used by cowards to cling to the Faith by blaming the Church for not consecrating Russia properly. It's always the Church's fault, Folks. And why are they so quick to blame the Church and have been doing so for who knows how long?

Because Fatima as promoted by Father Gruener, and Michael Matt, and Chris Ferrara, which criticizes the Church and enthrones the Blessed Virgin Mary as a type of Super-Pope, is the Last Refuge for those who are afraid to criticize the Jews. Because that would be the next step. And they can't go there. I would include Masons in this, but you can criticize Masons. Even Alex Jones does that quite regularly.

The time for debate is over. It's time to start ridiculing these people.

At least Father Gruener, and Michael Matt, and Chris Ferrara make, or made, a living off of this nonsense. What do you followers have to show for it outside of frustration and a possible loss of the Faith? 

[mikemac]

http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3234-communion-under-both-kinds

This Remnant article by Fr. Ladis J. Cizik also says this below.  You would think that it was written directly for you.

But then, why did the Angel give the Precious Blood to Jacinta and Francisco?   The teaching in the Fatima Message was not just for Latin Rite Catholics but for Eastern Rite Catholics as well, especially those in what would become the Soviet Union, who would soon find their Holy Catholic Faith threatened by the errors of Russia – as Our Lady would foretell on July 13, 1917.  In the Eastern Rites, young children make their First Holy Communion as infants at the time of their Baptism by receiving a drop of the Precious Blood in the form of Wine.  After that, as they are growing up and are too young to receive Jesus in the form of Bread, the Priest gives them a drop of the Precious Blood with the tiny spoon used to administer Holy Communion under both species to those who are of age, as is the custom in the Byzantine Catholic Rite.

There is nothing wrong with the Eastern-Rite Catholic tradition of the Priest giving the Consecrated Bread mingled with Consecrated Wine on a small spoon directly into the mouth of the Communicant.  In his classic booklet, Communion Under Both Kinds: An Ecumenical Surrender, Michael Davies begins by saying:  "There is no theological objection to the laity receiving Holy Communion under both kinds (sub utraque specie).  The controversy on this topic was initiated by those who claimed that there is a theological objection to the reception of Holy Communion under one kind only."  It should be noted that the misguided insistence on the necessity of the laity receiving Holy Communion under both species was a basis for the 15th century Hussite Heresy.

For our times, the Fatima Message's possible reference to the Eastern Rites could also bring comfort to those tradition-minded Catholics who felt abandoned by the Protestantized man-centered Novus Ordo Mass. Like Eastern Rite refugees fleeing from Communist Russia, many Latin Rite Catholics fled for a safe haven to the Byzantine or other Eastern Rite Catholic Churches where their centuries-old beautiful God-centered Traditional Divine Liturgies were still being offered after Vatican II.

At Fatima, there is a landmark 'Onion Dome,' marking the exact location of an Eastern-Rite Chapel. This Onion Dome, a traditional Eastern-Rite church feature, can be seen rising just behind Fatima's venerable Basilica of Our Lady of the Rosary.  This Eastern Rite Chapel is on the second floor of Domus Pacis, the International Headquarters of the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima (World Apostolate of Fatima), which was constructed in the years 1953-58. Domus Pacis also is home to a Latin-Rite Chapel on the first floor.  The Eastern-Rite Chapel has a traditional wall of Icons (an Iconostasis) and is dedicated to Our Lady of the Dormition.  It was intended, along with the distinctive Onion Dome, to symbolize and to pray for the conversion of Russia, as promised by Our Lady of Fatima on July 13, 1917.  Cardinal Eugene Tisserant, Head of the Congregation for the Oriental Church, blessed Domus Pacis on October 12, 1956, as a Papal Legate for Pope Pius XII.

But ultimately, we are Latin Rite Catholics and we are not at home without our Traditional Latin Mass.  We thank God and Our Lady of Fatima for the few opportunities that we have to publicly attend the Immemorial Mass of the Ages.  It may seem that we have a long way to go before the Traditional Latin Mass is fully restored and available to Catholics everywhere and on an everyday basis without restrictions.  But, Our Lady of Fatima gives us hope, as She said at Fatima on July 13, 1917:  "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph."

By the way, every Remnant article ends with their 'Comment Guidelines'.  You would also think that it was written directly for you. 

The Remnant values the comments and input of our visitors. It's no secret, however, that trolls exist, and trolls can do a lot of damage to a brand. Therefore, our comments are heavily monitored 24/7 by Remnant moderators around the country.  They have been instructed to remove demeaning, hostile, needlessly combative, racist, Christophobic comments, and streams not related to the storyline. Multiple comments from one person under a story are also discouraged. Capitalized sentences or comments will be removed (Internet shouting).

The Remnant comments sections are not designed for frequent personal blogging, on-going debates or theological or other disputes between commenters. Please understand that we pay our writers to defend The Remnant's editorial positions. We thus acknowledge no moral obligation whatsoever to allow anyone and everyone to try to undermine our editorial policy and create a general nuisance on our website.  Therefore, Remnant moderators reserve the right to edit or remove comments, and comments do not necessarily represent the views of The Remnant.

[Kaesekopf]

Ah, yes, Fatima was scandalous to 98.5% of Catholics worldwide just to teach a lesson to the statistically-insignificant Eastern Catholics.

By the way, every Remnant article ends with their 'Comment Guidelines'.  You would also think that it was written directly for you. 

It's no secret, however, that trolls exist

The old "you don't agree with what I say therefore you are a troll" attack.

Go learn how to post with substance, Mikemac.

[Quaremerepulisti]

At last.  Someone is analysing Fatima from a theological standpoint - and finding Fatima wanting.

Take a bow, Gerard.

Why has it taken so many decades for these points to be raised?  An angel giving Holy Communion to 3 peasant children?  As a convert, when first told this I assumed that since it was Trads saying it, it had to be good and true!!!

And 2 of them before they made their first Holy Communion, overriding the plans of their parents and pastor.

[Matamoros]

I've been a critic of Fatima for over 10 years now. And I think I have even raised the Angel as "extraordinary minister of the Eucharist" problem as well. Either way, good job, Gerard.

Allow me to be blunt. Since I've said it all before and since Gerard is taking the time point it out a specific event in a very precise, if not, lawyerly fashion.

This religion of Fatima, for all intents and purposes, is used by cowards to cling to the Faith by blaming the Church for not consecrating Russia properly. It's always the Church's fault, Folks. And why are they so quick to blame the Church and have been doing so for who knows how long?

Because Fatima as promoted by Father Gruener, and Michael Matt, and Chris Ferrara, which criticizes the Church and enthrones the Blessed Virgin Mary as a type of Super-Pope, is the Last Refuge for those who are afraid to criticize the Jews. Because that would be the next step. And they can't go there. I would include Masons in this, but you can criticize Masons. Even Alex Jones does that quite regularly.

The time for debate is over. It's time to start ridiculing these people.

At least Father Gruener, and Michael Matt, and Chris Ferrara make, or made, a living off of this nonsense. What do you followers have to show for it outside of frustration and a possible loss of the Faith?

Could you elaborate on this, Innocent Smith?

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

...which criticizes the Church and enthrones the Blessed Virgin Mary as a type of Super-Pope, is the Last Refuge for those who are afraid to criticize the Jews.

The Faith and intellectual honesty brings one to the bigger picture.

There are other excellent references, but this is a good summary:
The Plot Against The Church
https://christogenea.org/system/files/resources/PlotAgainstTheChurchComplete.pdf

Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked - The War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization
https://archive.org/stream/GrandOrientFreemasonryUnmasked/Grand.Orient.Freemasonry.Unmasked#page/n0/mode/2up

[Matamoros]

...which criticizes the Church and enthrones the Blessed Virgin Mary as a type of Super-Pope, is the Last Refuge for those who are afraid to criticize the Jews.

The Faith and intellectual honesty brings one to the bigger picture.

There are other excellent references, but this is a good summary:
The Plot Against The Church
https://christogenea.org/system/files/resources/PlotAgainstTheChurchComplete.pdf

Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked - The War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization
https://archive.org/stream/GrandOrientFreemasonryUnmasked/Grand.Orient.Freemasonry.Unmasked#page/n0/mode/2up

A "summary" of 600 pages!  Thank you very much for providing these links, PerEvangelicaDicta. Perhaps someday I will get around to reading them. For now I was hoping for a summary of about a paragraph, not of the history of the Jews' perfidy, with which I'm well familiar, but specifically how it relates to Fatima. I've not heard such a claim before, and the connection is not immediately clear to me.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

sorry, my last post was a little OT.  Feed free to delete, Kaes.

Mikemac, it's so unfair to characterize Gerard as a troll!
He's our brother, and he represents a number of good, solid Catholics who have questions about things that don't reconcile properly, or at all.  Why are those with doubts mocked or attacked, with an underlying vein that our faith and/or love for our dear BVM is deficient for having these doubts?  The attitude is akin to you have the high ground and those who have honest concerns do not.  That's pretty divisive.

In fairness, you too have been swiped at for your blind faith in Fatima, which I think is endearing, but blind faith is for dogma, not apparitions.