Author Topic: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start  (Read 563 times)

Offline Kirin

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Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« on: April 19, 2017, 06:33:52 PM »
The history of Catholicism right from the get go is littered with depictions of hell. From the scriptures to private revelations we know, perhaps most recently in explicitly vivid terms from Fatima we know (presuming Catholic doctrine is correct) that the vast majority of humanity is going to Hell. The church may be more reluctant today to announce who is going or who may be there already but this seems pretty set in stone.

So to be it begs the question, what's the point of the salvation plan?

God has proven on several occasions that he can forgive people of original sin (as he did with the Virgin Mary prior to or at conception) without any act or faith on their part, and has also shown several times throughout the bible, such as when he hardened Pharaoh's heart, he can and will compel humans (with no regard to their free will) to either serve him or as was in the case of Pharaoh act against his chosen holy agents. The scriptures are littered with accounts where God darkened or made hard a heart, or either he or his chosen prophets have deliberatley deceived otherwise innocent people (As Abraham did when he claimed his wife was his sister, and handed her over for adulterous liaisons to a man who would have refused otherwise) for what seems to be no other reason than amusement.

With the knowledge that God does and at one time frequently did disregard mens free will, if not actively deceiving them, why bother with this grand divine piece of theater? Everything since the fall has demonstrably been shown to be utterly unnecessary since God has "cured" original sin without being asked, and compelled men to act in ways they would not have without his influence.

More than that, if God desires all men to be united with him for an omniscient and omnipotent being (who again, has no regard for free will) his plan seems woefully inefficient. He knew from the outset his plan was doomed to failure, and so countless billions of human babies have been born for no other purpose to provide the elect with a certain smug pleasure as they roast for all eternity.

I've been told previously on here I align pieces of Catholic teaching together incorrectly, what would be a better frame to explain this from. I am left with two conclusions at the present.


1.The Catholic God is neither Omniscient or Omnipotent, his poor plan stems not from malice but from incompetence and the inability to modify his plan as he must have surely observed it to be failing as most of humanity, both Catholics and non, are still all going to the hell he formed not quite understanding the consequences.

2. The Catholic God is a Sadist who especially enjoys developing Stockholm syndrome in his crreations/victims, not vastly unlike those children who play life simulators like the Sims and spend their entire time torturing their virtual creations to insanity or death. He knows his plan isn't working and deigns not to change it despite being able to, or to view it from an even darker perspective paying more heed to divine perfection and omniscience the damnation of most of his creations was his intention to begin with.

I'd appreciate your thinking on this matter.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 06:37:05 PM by Kirin »
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 07:48:14 PM »
God has proven on several occasions that he can forgive people of original sin (as he did with the Virgin Mary prior to or at conception) without any act or faith on their part,
It's also the case that people contract original sin without any act on their part. The only act necessary for original sin was Adam's disobedience. Likewise, the only act necessary for the forgiveness of original sin was Christ's obedience. And though Christ acted in time, he was destined to act from all eternity, which is how God was able to apply those merits and forgive our Lady (and the Jews) even before the time of Christ.

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and has also shown several times throughout the bible, such as when he hardened Pharaoh's heart, he can and will compel humans (with no regard to their free will) to either serve him or as was in the case of Pharaoh act against his chosen holy agents. The scriptures are littered with accounts where God darkened or made hard a heart,
When Scripture says that God "hardened Pharao's heart" it doesn't mean that God made Pharao sin. What it means is that God withdrew his grace from Pharao, and Pharao (who was now deprived of grace) by his own choice chose to persecute the Church. The way this works is, we are always free to serve God. But at the same time, we are incapable of living a good life / of serving God unless God himself gives us the grace to do so AND we choose to cooperate. Yet God is under no obligation to give us grace. (So in the case of Pharao, God did no evil.) Yet God often does give us grace because he wills that we be good.
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 09:04:31 PM »
The history of Catholicism right from the get go is littered with depictions of hell. From the scriptures to private revelations we know, perhaps most recently in explicitly vivid terms from Fatima we know (presuming Catholic doctrine is correct) that the vast majority of humanity is going to Hell. The church may be more reluctant today to announce who is going or who may be there already but this seems pretty set in stone.

So to be it begs the question, what's the point of the salvation plan?

It is understandable that this would be your reaction.

This assumes you reject the Thomistic/Augustinian predestination line or not, since if you do not, there simply is no "salvation plan" for those who are damned.  If you do, the salvation plan is thwarted by humans, yes, but there clearly is a plan and a point.

A man builds a house and provides food for those who would otherwise freeze and starve to death, and yet many either choose to remain outside and die or enter the house but use it to distribute drugs.  Does his action therefore have no point?  Is there no point to his housing and feeding plan?

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God has proven on several occasions that he can forgive people of original sin (as he did with the Virgin Mary prior to or at conception) without any act or faith on their part, and has also shown several times throughout the bible, such as when he hardened Pharaoh's heart, he can and will compel humans (with no regard to their free will) to either serve him or as was in the case of Pharaoh act against his chosen holy agents.

Well, God moves their free will to serve Him, but this is dependent on a willingness to have it so moved.

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With the knowledge that God does and at one time frequently did disregard mens free will, if not actively deceiving them, why bother with this grand divine piece of theater? Everything since the fall has demonstrably been shown to be utterly unnecessary since God has "cured" original sin without being asked, and compelled men to act in ways they would not have without his influence.

Because God does not only do what is strictly necessary, but also what is fitting.

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More than that, if God desires all men to be united with him for an omniscient and omnipotent being (who again, has no regard for free will) his plan seems woefully inefficient. He knew from the outset his plan was doomed to failure, and so countless billions of human babies have been born for no other purpose to provide the elect with a certain smug pleasure as they roast for all eternity.

Only if you accept Thomist/Augustianian predestination. 


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1.The Catholic God is neither Omniscient or Omnipotent, his poor plan stems not from malice but from incompetence and the inability to modify his plan as he must have surely observed it to be failing as most of humanity, both Catholics and non, are still all going to the hell he formed not quite understanding the consequences.

2. The Catholic God is a Sadist who especially enjoys developing Stockholm syndrome in his crreations/victims, not vastly unlike those children who play life simulators like the Sims and spend their entire time torturing their virtual creations to insanity or death. He knows his plan isn't working and deigns not to change it despite being able to, or to view it from an even darker perspective paying more heed to divine perfection and omniscience the damnation of most of his creations was his intention to begin with.

Are you quite sure these are all the options?

3) The Catholic God is Love Who became man and died in order to free man from the slavery of sin and enable man not to only be "with God" but even, in a certain real sense, become one with God.  Yes, some of His creatures reject Him and choose an eternity in hell.  He cannot force His creatures to love Him, for the very nature of love demands it be given freely.  Nevertheless, His plan of salvation for them was real and lacking in nothing; something was lacking from them.


 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 09:51:13 AM »
if you do not, there simply is no "salvation plan" for those who are damned.
Maybe I'm not fully understanding your argument, but it seems that you're ignoring the fact that God, who wills that all men be saved, gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. It's not as if there are some people who enter into life and receive no grace whatsoever during life and are more or less damned from the start.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 10:10:44 AM »
if you do not, there simply is no "salvation plan" for those who are damned.
Maybe I'm not fully understanding your argument, but it seems that you're ignoring the fact that God, who wills that all men be saved, gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. It's not as if there are some people who enter into life and receive no grace whatsoever during life and are more or less damned from the start.

This assumes you are using sufficient in the accepted sense of the word and not the sophistry employed in Banezian Thomism.
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Offline james03

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 11:41:49 AM »
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Only if you accept Thomist/Augustianian predestination. 

Q., there you go again.  Please put "Banez" in front of Thomist. 

Augustine is more complex.  It depends on what "Augustine" you are referring to.

Maybe I'll get a chance to argue for predestination.  I was on the Free Will side for a long time in recent posts.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 11:52:11 AM »
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I've been told previously on here I align pieces of Catholic teaching together incorrectly, what would be a better frame to explain this from. I am left with two conclusions at the present.

False dichotomy.  No where do you consider God giving us Free Will.  Factor that in and tell us the possible conclusions.


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So to be it begs the question, what's the point of the salvation plan?

From whose perspective?  A common error is to mix human/God perspectives.  It appears you are considering God's perspective.  In that case, there is no "plan".  God is outside of time.  Reality just "is" to Him with no before or after.  He doesn't plan then execute.  That introduces time and is a grave error.

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such as when he hardened Pharaoh's heart, he can and will compel humans (with no regard to their free will) to either serve him or as was in the case of Pharaoh act against his chosen holy agents.
  Try this scenario out:  "God saw Pharaoh enslave people and slaughter babies in pagan sacrifice, so He struck him down with lightning."  Do you recoil from that?  Of course not, you cheer on the lightning.  So why is it wrong to show forbearance and use Pharaoh to show His might to the jews?

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More than that, if God desires all men to be united with him for an omniscient and omnipotent being (who again, has no regard for free will) his plan seems woefully inefficient.
  Stated that way, you are correct.  But see above, you leave out Free Will.  God professes the reality of Free Will.

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so countless billions of human babies have been born for no other purpose to provide the elect with a certain smug pleasure as they roast for all eternity.
  Is this willful deception or just ignorance?  Catholics don't teach that babies roast in hell.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 

Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 01:21:41 PM »
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Only if you accept Thomist/Augustianian predestination. 

Q., there you go again.  Please put "Banez" in front of Thomist. 

Augustine is more complex.  It depends on what "Augustine" you are referring to.

Maybe I'll get a chance to argue for predestination.  I was on the Free Will side for a long time in recent posts.

That would make for a very profitable thread on it's own.
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Offline james03

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 02:48:01 PM »
There's already 50 such threads to choose from.

I'm in an interesting position being a Congruentist.  The more extreme molinists cheer me on over Free Will, however this theology is more extreme on predestination than Thomists in that we don't give any explanation for predestination, since none has been revealed.  To prove the point I often joke that God could have a quota for blonds, brunettes, etc.... in heaven.  If, per impossibile, this were the case, it would be perfectly just.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 
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Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 02:56:35 PM »
There's already 50 such threads to choose from.

I'm in an interesting position being a Congruentist.  The more extreme molinists cheer me on over Free Will, however this theology is more extreme on predestination than Thomists in that we don't give any explanation for predestination, since none has been revealed.  To prove the point I often joke that God could have a quota for blonds, brunettes, etc.... in heaven.  If, per impossibile, this were the case, it would be perfectly just.

I get lost in deep meditation on these kinds of topics and spend countless hours pursuing.  Come, Holy Ghost, right?  :)

Regarding the multiple threads, I'll search.  Thank you.
They shall not be confounded in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be filled
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Offline james03

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 04:35:59 PM »
The starting point for both sides is to fully accept this Truth:

"If no one is saved, it is perfectly just."  (Ignoring Mary, saints, etc.... for the purpose of argument).

If you can't accept this, first you must state the injustice, and second, you can't move on.  This is a fundamental premise.

I harp on this a lot, but the inability of some Catholics to understand what justice is has led to many problems in soteriology and economics.

Yes, people are saved, but it is not out of justice, it is out of Charity and Mercy.  Justice is present, but it is the justice of Faith in Christ.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 10:12:18 AM »
The starting point for both sides is to fully accept this Truth:

"If no one is saved, it is perfectly just."  (Ignoring Mary, saints, etc.... for the purpose of argument).

Fine.  I just don't see where anyone is denying this truth, which is pretty close to self-evident.

 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 04:31:42 PM »
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Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

The sanctity of the saints is only more brilliant because it shone in the midst of so much evil & darkness.
In order for the saints to prosper so much in grace, they needed to be surrounded by so many sinners, so that their faith could be proved, "like gold in the fire".
The lives of sinners are not wasted, because they serve to glorify the saints, and to give God the opportunity to show His perfect justice.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 

Offline james03

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 05:08:40 PM »
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Fine.  I just don't see where anyone is denying this truth, which is pretty close to self-evident.

I'd say 99% of neo Catholics probably deny it, and would not be surprised if half of Trads.

Case 1:  Babu the naked savage toddler is killed when the neighboring tribe throws him into their cook pot.  Antonio, the baptized toddler is killed when a natural gas pipeline blows up.  Antonio goes to heaven, Babu does not.  I don't know if many Catholics would accept this.

Case 2:  I doubt most Catholics could say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed today and accept it.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Hell: The divine salvation plan doomed from the start
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 05:23:15 PM »
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Fine.  I just don't see where anyone is denying this truth, which is pretty close to self-evident.

I'd say 99% of neo Catholics probably deny it, and would not be surprised if half of Trads.

Case 1:  Babu the naked savage toddler is killed when the neighboring tribe throws him into their cook pot.  Antonio, the baptized toddler is killed when a natural gas pipeline blows up.  Antonio goes to heaven, Babu does not.  I don't know if many Catholics would accept this.

Case 2:  I doubt most Catholics could say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed today and accept it.

Case 1: Babu is going to Limbo, yes, in Hell but not a place of eternal fire. It's not like he's going from the frying pan into the fire.  ::)
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