Introduction to Alt Right Manosphere

[james03]

I've had a wild ride.  What started out as research into atheist arguments led to gamergate, which led to the Alt Right, and now the manosphpere.  For those who like to keep abreast of current events, here's a brief analysis so you can keep up:

MGTOW:  Men Going Their Own Way.  These are male hyper feminists.  Basic belief is that men and women are the same, though they are sane enough to acknowledge some physical differences.  From that they believe that current laws/society are greatly tilted towards women: hiring, education, courts.  They forsake marriage and relationships.  Some espouse fornication, while others advocate not dating at all.  They believe it is too dangerous to get involved with women with the current society.  Instead a man should just work on happiness in his life such as interesting work and hobbies.
Alliance opportunity with Trads:  Not much.  They are more like our enemies.  They do oppose female feminists, but mostly because of the contradictions, i.e. demanding equality (which MGTOW are all for) while also wanting special treatment, e.g. divorce court, child custody, minimal defense against rape accusations, and attacks on social media while claiming harrassment.

PUA:  Pick Up Artist.  Teaches men how to game women so they can fornicate more.  Wrongly accused of advocating rape or promoting date rape drugs.  On the plus side it's mainly focused on gaining confidence.
Alliance Opportunities with Trads:  Obviously the fornication piece is a non-starter.  The self-improvement piece could be helpful.  If a man is painfully shy, reading some of the materials while changing the goal to creating a relationship would be beneficial.  PUA is so shot through with fornication, there are better ways.

MRA: Men's Rights Activist.  Draws different philosophies which all advocate a level playing field.  Main concentrations include divorce reform, child custody reform, paternity fraud, exposing the false date culture narrative, opposing false rape claims, opposing female preferences in hiring and education.  Includes women such as Karen Straughan, Laura Southern, and Christina Hoff Somers.
Alliance Opportunities for Trads:  Many people with different backgrounds.  Most of what they promote a Trad would also promote.  Central philosophy of promoting Justice we can get behind.

Masculinists:  Promotes men increasing in masculine virtue.  Encourages men to improve themselves.  Depending on the author, can include promotion of fornication.
Alliance Opportunities for Trads:  Besides some who promote fornication, the rest of it is very Trad.

[Chestertonian]

i think  i will just stick to looking to the saints, the magisterium, good Catholic priests and of course GK Chesterton

i have been to some of those websites... there are kernels of truth but you have to sift through a lot of BS to get to it.  I don't have time for that.  could be r reading spiritual classics with that time

[james03]

Yeah.  Good choice.

The reason this interests me is not the content, per se.  I've always been interested in something, which formerly is called the Euthyphro Dilemma, though I didn't know about it for most of the time. 

So the question raised is whether we do things, just because God tells us to, or if there is objective good.  But if there is objective good, there then is a higher standard than God.  The answer is the Divine Simplicity, but that takes us off topic.

I've always held to objective good.  Now being convinced of that, I've always held that there are material consequences to sin.  So I have always been atune to what I call empiricism, that is, people just figuring things out from experience, and not revelation.

So when a guy starts out chasing fornication through pick-up scams, and ends up believing in the need to develop male virtue, that interests me.  It's not their particular views, which they can not explain, but the fact that they discover an at least somewhat moral way of living even though they are not religious.

[Bonaventure]

I like some of what they say. I recognize there is a lot of good amongst them, but of course they are separated from Christ, and not a long term solution. Still, they offer a lot of good advice.

Who I've enjoyed: Roosh, Heartiste, Goodbye America, Zippy Catholic, Aaron Clarey, Matt Forney, Dalrock, Luimarco, Blair Naso, Return of Kings, etc.

[Chestertonian]

I like some of what they say. I recognize there is a lot of good amongst them, but of course they are separated from Christ, and not a long term solution. Still, they offer a lot of good advice.

Who I've enjoyed: Roosh, Heartiste, Goodbye America, Zippy Catholic, Aaron Clarey, Matt Forney, Dalrock, Luimarco, Blair Naso, Return of Kings, etc.

i have a friend who likes heartiste a lot and is cargolic and also return of kigs and roosh. i donteally get it.  this friend of mine is "playing the field" and hasn't gotten married for all the advice these guys give they don't seem to know much about what makes a heathy marriage tick, and isn't that the goal?  their goal is getting as much sex as possible.

James is right in that there is some emphasis on natural manly virtues.  You can build yourself up and be confident and develop these natural virtues but it is Christ-like to empty oneself.



one of the articles on heartiste i saw said never tell a girl you love her.  always let her be the first one to say it.. if she says i love you, you say something like " I know. " think he stole that one from han solo. i  that to me is the opposite of the Christ-like role in a marriage.  Christ ys e lover, the Church is the beloved.  We love because He first loved us.  In this way I think it makes sense for te man to be the lover and the wife to be the beloved

[MilesChristi]

I like some of what they say. I recognize there is a lot of good amongst them, but of course they are separated from Christ, and not a long term solution. Still, they offer a lot of good advice.

Who I've enjoyed: Roosh, Heartiste, Goodbye America, Zippy Catholic, Aaron Clarey, Matt Forney, Dalrock, Luimarco, Blair Naso, Return of Kings, etc.

i have a friend who likes heartiste a lot and is cargolic and also return of kigs and roosh. i donteally get it.  this friend of mine is "playing the field" and hasn't gotten married for all the advice these guys give they don't seem to know much about what makes a heathy marriage tick, and isn't that the goal?  their goal is getting as much sex as possible.

James is right in that there is some emphasis on natural manly virtues.  You can build yourself up and be confident and develop these natural virtues but it is Christ-like to empty oneself.



one of the articles on heartiste i saw said never tell a girl you love her.  always let her be the first one to say it.. if she says i love you, you say something like " I know. " think he stole that one from han solo. i  that to me is the opposite of the Christ-like role in a marriage.  Christ ys e lover, the Church is the beloved.  We love because He first loved us.  In this way I think it makes sense for te man to be the lover and the wife to be the beloved

If I pulled a Han Solo, I would be slapped.

[St.Justin]

Natural law is a philosophy that certain rights or values are inherent by virtue of human nature and universally cognizable through human reason. Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze both social and personal human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior. The law of nature, being determined by nature, is universal.[1]

"Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee."
? Augustine of Hippo, Confessions

"The punishment of every disordered mind is its own disorder."
? Augustine of Hippo, Confessions

[james03]

Excellent quotes.  Thanks.

That sums up my interest.  Here we have before us real world examples developing before our eyes.  That has always interested me.

[Bonaventure]

The advice they give on relationships is ultimately incomplete. They recognize the broken relationship between the sexes, and give Ken advice on avoiding modern jesebels and finding good women; however, there is an obsession with being "alpha." This sort of aloof, mental character many of these men like to play to get laid or for more nobler goals. Personally, I don't play the aloof, indirect nonsense. Like Donald Trump, whether in business or with others, I'm direct and in your face.

We know that a marriage, and any relationship aiming and open towards such, must be a mutual sacrifice to get each other to heaven. Most manosphere people don't explicitly accept this, hence the "never say I love you" stuff.

[LausTibiChriste]

Pick up "artistry" was huge in the military. It was disgusting really.

[Chestertonian]

the friend of mine who was into heartiste also rates women in some scale of 1 to 10 and he linked to heartistes magic formula he uses

aooarently willingness to engage in ,"heterosexial sodomy" greatly increases a womams "value"....yuck

[Kaesekopf]

If I pulled a Han Solo, I would be slapped.

Clearly not alpha enough.

[Baldrick]

Yeah.  Good choice.

The reason this interests me is not the content, per se.  I've always been interested in something, which formerly is called the Euthyphro Dilemma, though I didn't know about it for most of the time. 

So the question raised is whether we do things, just because God tells us to, or if there is objective good.  But if there is objective good, there then is a higher standard than God.  The answer is the Divine Simplicity, but that takes us off topic.

I've always held to objective good.  Now being convinced of that, I've always held that there are material consequences to sin.  So I have always been atune to what I call empiricism, that is, people just figuring things out from experience, and not revelation.

So when a guy starts out chasing fornication through pick-up scams, and ends up believing in the need to develop male virtue, that interests me.  It's not their particular views, which they can not explain, but the fact that they discover an at least somewhat moral way of living even though they are not religious.

I think that's true but I would also argue that those people had always believed in objective moral values at one level or another.  The idea that morality is relative is really a pose and a pose that they cannot actually live consistently; as soon as they are treated unfairly, for example, you can be quite sure they will protest that something is unfair, or unjust, etc.  And you can tell what a person believes by what they do, not what they say. 

[John Lamb]

They promote godless pride and the will to dominate. They are emasculated men who desire petty revenge upon women. They are destitute of faith and charity. They are not worth reading, even if they promote some virtues like fortitude and self-discipline; virtues like these are vices in pagans, because they take pride in them. Besides, there are plenty of examples of truly heroic fortitude and discipline in the lives of the saints. If you want to know what it is to be a man then pray to, meditate upon, and read books about St. Joseph, the spouse of Our Lady. He will teach you how to treat a woman, not these heathens who think women are beasts to be conquered. Look now at how they are so morbidly obsessed with "cuckoldry", that is, with emasculated men that allow their wives to commit adultery; they go about everywhere looking for "cuckoldry" to scoff at; these men are the reprobates that St. Paul talks about, who because they have a defiled conscience, see everything about them as filth, whereas the pure see only things that are pure. They are disgraceful hypocrites who scorn a woman for being a "slut", yet cheer a man who is a seducer of women. Avoid these pagans.

[james03]

Who is "they"?  You kind of missed the whole point of my post.  If you mean PUA, then you are correct.  If you mean MRA, I disagree.  A good chunk of that movement are women, even some feminists.