Prophecy or DIY Preaching. Which is more downright Protestant?

[Greg]

Question - Which is more "downright protestant"?

Looking for answers to the current confusion in scripture and religious prophecy or publicly and widely criticizing the parts of the Church you disagree with as a lay person with no clerical, episcopal or Papal mandate whatsoever.

What is the difference between Martin Luther, who was at least a priest, printing his criticisms of the Catholic Church and its corruption and the self-appointed Michael Voris pinning his own "spiritual pornography" onto the Internet's front door?

If desperate times call for desperate measures, (which I believe they do) then LAYMAN Voris needs to cut other Catholics some slack.

If they don't, then that should be his last video and he should go back to Pay, Pray and Obey and hand his media empire over to clerics.

[OCLittleFlower]

Which video of Voris' are you referring to?

This one?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucdpyar_Y80[/yt]

If he believes we shouldn't even mention it -- why is he?

[Roland Deschain]

I agreed with Voris on this one, actually. I find the near fanatical obsession with third secrets, false lucys, 3 days of darkness, Great Monarchs, Peter the Romans....etc among some trads to be troubling.

Has earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered to the Saints become so boring that we need to turn in a near Gnostic direction looking for "signs and wonders?"

Bravo, Mr. Voris.

[Greg]

Which video of Voris' are you referring to?

This one?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucdpyar_Y80[/yt]

If he believes we shouldn't even mention it -- why is he?

He has a special pass as a self appointed Catholic Journalist.

He wrote it on the back of an airline boarding card with crayon.

[Greg]

I agreed with Voris on this one, actually. I find the near fanatical obsession with third secrets, false lucys, 3 days of darkness, Great Monarchs, Peter the Romans....etc among some trads to be troubling.

Has earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered to the Saints become so boring that we need to turn in a near Gnostic direction looking for "signs and wonders?"

Bravo, Mr. Voris.

Fine.  What precedent is there for Catholics to set up their own lay apostolates and publicly preach what the faith is an isn't, including criticising priests and bishops, without any mandate to do so from the official church?

When you make the claim, where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed you are not merely giving an opinion on a forum but setting yourself up as a teacher and preacher.

[LouisIX]

I agreed with Voris on this one, actually. I find the near fanatical obsession with third secrets, false lucys, 3 days of darkness, Great Monarchs, Peter the Romans....etc among some trads to be troubling.

Has earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered to the Saints become so boring that we need to turn in a near Gnostic direction looking for "signs and wonders?"

Bravo, Mr. Voris.

Fine.  What precedent is there for Catholics to set up their own lay apostolates and publicly preach what the faith is an isn't, including criticising priests and bishops, without any mandate to do so from the official church?

When you make the claim, where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed you are not merely giving an opinion on a forum but setting yourself up as a teacher and preacher.

There was St. Paul rebuking St. Peter to his face.  St. Catherine of Sienna doing much the same to Gregory XI in letters.  And the opponent's of John XXII's dormition of the soul heresy.

[Greg]

All religious.  Any Laymen?  Last 500 years since the printing press.

Not one off events, but starting media companies, newspapers, etc.

Fr. Gruner is a priest with a one issue agenda.  Voris does much the same punditry but with no mandate and takes potshots at anything he does not like in the Church.  Not all Bishops like his Real Catholic TV and some would like it shut down.

If they must tolerate him, why should he not tolerate a few prophecy nuts?

Are any Bishops and Cardinals throwing around terms like "spiritual pornography".  Most of them, even if they don't believe in Fatima and other things, let the Catholics who do, get on with it.

Once again, where are these Catholics who suggest the signs of the times we are living in now are leading directly to the second coming of Jesus in the next 10 or 20 years.  I read just about everything there is on the web and I have never come across this from any Catholic group.  So show me.

Protestants may believe this, but he cannot be preaching to them, if he uses phrases like, "it is downright Protestant".

[LouisIX]

All religious.  Any Laymen?  Last 500 years since the printing press.

Not one off events, but starting media companies, newspapers, etc.

Fr. Gruner is a priest with a one issue agenda.  Voris does much the same punditry but with no mandate and takes potshots at anything he does not like in the Church.  Not all Bishops like his Real Catholic TV and some would like it shut down.

If they must tolerate him, why should he not tolerate a few prophecy nuts?

Are any Bishops and Cardinals throwing around terms like "spiritual pornography".  Most of them, even if they don't believe in Fatima and other things, let the Catholics who do, get on with it.

Once again, where are these Catholics who suggest the signs of the times we are living in now are leading directly to the second coming of Jesus in the next 10 or 20 years.  I read just about everything there is on the web and I have never come across this from any Catholic group.  So show me.

Protestants may believe this, but he cannot be preaching to them, if he uses phrases like, "it is downright Protestant".

This may sounds insulting but I don't mean it that way.  However, this is a pretty basic argument against traditionalism.  It's the one I hear from neoCatholic friends all the time.

You know the response to this.  You know this is the stuff thrown around on CAF.  Why are you now questioning it?

[Greg]

Don't understand the question.  Spell it out.

[Vetus Ordo]

What precedent is there for Catholics to set up their own lay apostolates and publicly preach what the faith is an isn't, including criticising priests and bishops, without any mandate to do so from the official church?

None, if you consider the traditional Roman Catholic model.

[LouisIX]

Don't understand the question.  Spell it out.

It seems like you're saying traditionalism as a movement is hypocritical because Catholics can't or shouldn't question the papacy.  Is that fair or am I misunderstanding you?

[Greg]

I am saying either desperate times call for desperate measures or they don't.  You can't have it both ways.

If you use the times being bad to set up your own Internet TV channel run, not as a business selling advertising, but funded by donations from Catholics, with Catholic in the brand name, and a mission statement of trapping lies and falsehoods, with absolutely no mandate from the Church whatsoever, and then turn around and sift what to condemn and what to diplomatically avoid mentioning...

...then you have absolutely no business telling Catholics who connect the same problems and scandals, you refer to in your Vortex, to prophecy and conclude that Fatima is the answer (they do have the words of Our Lady to back up this theory), or the great ball of redemption or an Akita style chastisement, that they are "downright Protestant".

Catholics have believed in prophecy since the apostles and followed not a few false ones I am sure. They have only been condemning the church through their media channels since Martin Luther.

Whatever you think of prophecy nuts they are not the cause of this crisis or the sickness in the Church.  Attacking them is a cheap shot on a strawman to appeal to your paying subscribers and put out another video.

[poche]

It si very easy to complain and criticise others. When we do this we don't see our own sins.   

[LouisIX]

I am saying either desperate times call for desperate measures or they don't.  You can't have it both ways.

If you use the times being bad to set up your own Internet TV channel run, not as a business selling advertising, but funded by donations from Catholics, with Catholic in the brand name, and a mission statement of trapping lies and falsehoods, with absolutely no mandate from the Church whatsoever, and then turn around and sift what to condemn and what to diplomatically avoid mentioning...

...then you have absolutely no business telling Catholics who connect the same problems and scandals, you refer to in your Vortex, to prophecy and conclude that Fatima is the answer (they do have the words of Our Lady to back up this theory), or the great ball of redemption or an Akita style chastisement, that they are "downright Protestant".

Catholics have believed in prophecy since the apostles and followed not a few false ones I am sure. They have only been condemning the church through their media channels since Martin Luther.

Whatever you think of prophecy nuts they are not the cause of this crisis or the sickness in the Church.  Attacking them is a cheap shot on a strawman to appeal to your paying subscribers and put out another video.

I certainly agree that Voris' video was pretty ridiculous.  He seems to want to have his cake and eat it too.  He likes to praise Pope Benedict, but calls out the rest of the cardinals.  He likes the TLM but also likes VII (because the popes called it, you know).

I know he probably needs all the neoCath viewers and donations, but a Catholic can't justify the constant fence-sitting.

[OCLittleFlower]

It si very easy to complain and criticise others. When we do this we don't see our own sins.

But taken to its extreme, this line of thinking prevents discourse and the correction of error.