How did the old testament Jews have faith?

Daniel · July 28, 2018, 01:41:01 PM

The old testament Jews had faith, yet they did not believe in the Trinity. How can a person of faith be in error?

james03 · July 28, 2018, 01:54:37 PM

See St. Thomas's teaching on Implicit Faith.

And I hope you aren't falling back into scruples.

LausTibiChriste · July 28, 2018, 04:18:39 PM

Didn't they believe in the Trinity since they believed in a forthcoming Messiah?

GloriaPatri · July 28, 2018, 04:35:56 PM

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on July 28, 2018, 04:18:39 PM
Didn't they believe in the Trinity since they believed in a forthcoming Messiah?

Ehh, the Messiah was not (and is not considered by today's Jews) to be a member of a triune Godhead. The Messiah was conceived by Temple Authorities as being a political savior chosen by God to deliver the Jewish people from foreign domination.

Gardener · July 28, 2018, 05:41:52 PM

GP, you might want to check out Dr. Brant Pitre's "The Case For Jesus". He shows in it the Old Testament prophecies about Christ and how they cannot be referring to a mere man. Hence, Christ's admonishing the Jews for not knowing the day of His coming, and why they (ignorantly) condemned Him for blasphemy.

This post-Temple trope about how they didn't know and so it's really not that bad is BS pure and simple. The Jews of Christ's day had no excuse. Jesus was not a rebel, revolutionary, etc., as has been portrayed since the 1960's. His message was, by and large, "Traditionalist". Hence, He was favorable to the Essenes, 50/50 on the Pharisees, and did nothing but excoriate the Sadducees.

Modern Jews are worthlessly compared to the Jews of that era. Completely different belief system as shaped by the removal of the Temple. Modern Jews are no more Jewish in the true sense than Lutherans of the Missouri Synod are Catholic -- highly similar, but disparate nonetheless.

GloriaPatri · July 29, 2018, 05:01:03 PM

Quote from: Gardener on July 28, 2018, 05:41:52 PM
GP, you might want to check out Dr. Brant Pitre's "The Case For Jesus". He shows in it the Old Testament prophecies about Christ and how they cannot be referring to a mere man. Hence, Christ's admonishing the Jews for not knowing the day of His coming, and why they (ignorantly) condemned Him for blasphemy.

This post-Temple trope about how they didn't know and so it's really not that bad is BS pure and simple. The Jews of Christ's day had no excuse. Jesus was not a rebel, revolutionary, etc., as has been portrayed since the 1960's. His message was, by and large, "Traditionalist". Hence, He was favorable to the Essenes, 50/50 on the Pharisees, and did nothing but excoriate the Sadducees.

Modern Jews are worthlessly compared to the Jews of that era. Completely different belief system as shaped by the removal of the Temple. Modern Jews are no more Jewish in the true sense than Lutherans of the Missouri Synod are Catholic -- highly similar, but disparate nonetheless.

I don't deny that the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah, especially when read in light of the NT, point to an individual that was more than man. I was merely replying to Laus' question: the ancient Israelites held to a monotheism that did not allow for a trinity of divine persons, even if trinity was of one divine essence. As far as they thought, the coming Messiah would be specially anointed by God, but would not be an incarnation of one member of a divine trinity.

Recall the most important prayer of the Jews, both before and after the destruction of the Temple: Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. The last word of the verse is echad, which is the cardinal number 1. Prior to the NT, no observant Jew would have had any reason to believe that God was a trinity of divine persons.

james03 · July 29, 2018, 08:05:05 PM

The jews were under the old covenant. And it didn't save them. They all went to hell. After Jesus preached to them and they believed, they were saved.

We even know from the parable of Lazarus the beggar that Abraham was in hell. Of course their paradise section was separated from the inferno by a chasm, so they probably had it alright until the Lord came to deliver them.

Xavier · July 30, 2018, 07:55:07 AM

QuoteI don't deny that the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah, especially when read in light of the NT, point to an individual that was more than man

Yes, there are very many, right from the beginning. God uses the plural, Let Us make man in Our Image. The Messiah would be the seed of the Woman, implying He would be the Son of God born of a Virgin without a human father. The express passage in Psa 109, cited by Christ the Lord to the Pharisees, where the Messiah is shown to be not a mere human son of David, but the Son of God and the Lord of David. The Lord knew the Scriptures better than the Pharisees did because He was God.

Beside being King, Messiah would also be as His Name Christ implies, a Priest, of the order of Melchizedech, Who had blessed Abraham and offered a sacrifice under the form of bread and wine. The Prophet Daniel, who foretold the time of His Messianic advent, about 483 years from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, saw the Son of Man receive worship from all nations beside the Ancient of Days. The Prophet Malachi sees the offering of a universal sacrifice and clean oblation offered from the rising of the sun to its setting. This is Holy Mass, and all can see Jesus is God because He has said all these things long ago, and fulfilled them visibly in His Church. Messiah gave His life an atonement for sin, as Isaiah saw, because as God He alone could atone for it. He was not left in hell but raised up as David saw because He belongs at the right hand of the Father, and all things, as David confessed of his Lord, will be under His feet. All salvation is in His Name alone, by faith in Him, and by holy Baptism.

Vetus Ordo · July 30, 2018, 05:08:23 PM

Quote from: Daniel on July 28, 2018, 01:41:01 PMThe old testament Jews had faith, yet they did not believe in the Trinity. How can a person of faith be in error?

They were not in error since they did not reject that which was not yet fully revealed.

They believed in one sole God, the creator and sustainer of everything that exists, the God who revealed Himself to all patriarchs, the God who alone is light and salvation (Ps. 27), the God of the Scriptures whose Messiah would surely come to save Israel.

The faith of the Old Testament saints, the instrument of all possible justification, is the same faith as our own, as Paul teaches in Romans 4:1-5. It included the belief in the coming Messiah, whose suffering and sacrifice is the propitiation for all sin. In John 14:36-40, for instance, Christ reveals that Isaiah already knew about Himself.

Abraham and Isaiah were justified by the same faith of the Apostles and of all Christians. Because of its object (John 14:6), it is the sole means of salvation.

Daniel · July 31, 2018, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 30, 2018, 05:08:23 PMThey were not in error since they did not reject that which was not yet fully revealed.

But if they had faith, shouldn't they have known, despite the fact that it had not yet been revealed?

If the knowing comes about as a result of revelation, then what does the faith do?

Vetus Ordo · July 31, 2018, 05:31:57 PM

Quote from: Daniel on July 31, 2018, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 30, 2018, 05:08:23 PMThey were not in error since they did not reject that which was not yet fully revealed.
But if they had faith, shouldn't they have known, despite the fact that it had not yet been revealed?

If the knowing comes about as a result of revelation, then what does the faith do?

What does faith do? It saves. Why? Because its object is Christ.

The knowledge of the Messiah and His Divinity was not fully developped among the OT people but it was there nonetheless. All Revelation pointed to Christ. Belief in the Messiah and His role in salvation was, and continues to be, an essential part of faith.

Therefore, that faith saves as much today, as it saved Abraham who was counted righteous before the Lord on that account alone (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

GloriaPatri · July 31, 2018, 06:00:23 PM

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 31, 2018, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from: Daniel on July 31, 2018, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 30, 2018, 05:08:23 PMThey were not in error since they did not reject that which was not yet fully revealed.
But if they had faith, shouldn't they have known, despite the fact that it had not yet been revealed?

If the knowing comes about as a result of revelation, then what does the faith do?

What does faith do? It saves. Why? Because its object is Christ.

The knowledge of the Messiah and His Divinity was not fully developped among the OT people but it was there nonetheless. All Revelation pointed to Christ. Belief in the Messiah and His role in salvation was, and continues to be, an essential part of faith.

Therefore, that faith saves as much today, as it saved Abraham who was counted righteous before the Lord on that account alone (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

I have a small question: What of the patriarchs prior to Abraham? Did they have an explicit, or even implicit, belief in a Messiah sent by God? I was under the impression that belief in a Messiah was developed by the Israelites sometime after Moses.

Vetus Ordo · July 31, 2018, 07:01:42 PM

Quote from: GloriaPatri on July 31, 2018, 06:00:23 PMI have a small question: What of the patriarchs prior to Abraham? Did they have an explicit, or even implicit, belief in a Messiah sent by God?

Yes.

The promise of the Messiah is originally found in Genesis 3:15, right after the Fall: ????? ??? ??????? ???????, ??? ?? ???????? ????? ???????, "He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

Daniel · July 31, 2018, 07:09:45 PM

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 31, 2018, 05:31:57 PM
What does faith do? It saves. Why? Because its object is Christ.

The knowledge of the Messiah and His Divinity was not fully developped among the OT people but it was there nonetheless. All Revelation pointed to Christ. Belief in the Messiah and His role in salvation was, and continues to be, an essential part of faith.

Therefore, that faith saves as much today, as it saved Abraham who was counted righteous before the Lord on that account alone (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

But even without faith, our intellect is ordered towards God (the True). And the True considered as an object evidently has no power to save; if it did then even the faithless sages and truth-seekers would be saved. They lack faith, but they have God as their object. So I'm not sure what the rôle of faith is.

I guess that faith gives knowledge of who the Church is, and it gives knowledge that the Church is infallible, but it does not give knowledge of particular truths? Particular truths come through revelation and are confirmed by the Church? And since the old testament Church never taught the Trinity, the old testament Jews had no way of infallibly knowing about it?

Vetus Ordo · August 01, 2018, 12:06:39 PM

Quote from: Daniel on July 31, 2018, 07:09:45 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on July 31, 2018, 05:31:57 PM
What does faith do? It saves. Why? Because its object is Christ.

The knowledge of the Messiah and His Divinity was not fully developped among the OT people but it was there nonetheless. All Revelation pointed to Christ. Belief in the Messiah and His role in salvation was, and continues to be, an essential part of faith.

Therefore, that faith saves as much today, as it saved Abraham who was counted righteous before the Lord on that account alone (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3).

But even without faith, our intellect is ordered towards God (the True). And the True considered as an object evidently has no power to save; if it did then even the faithless sages and truth-seekers would be saved. They lack faith, but they have God as their object. So I'm not sure what the rôle of faith is.

I guess that faith gives knowledge of who the Church is, and it gives knowledge that the Church is infallible, but it does not give knowledge of particular truths? Particular truths come through revelation and are confirmed by the Church? And since the old testament Church never taught the Trinity, the old testament Jews had no way of infallibly knowing about it?

The role of faith, to use your expression, is the means by which a sinner, wholly incapable of himself to withstand God's judgement and to fulfill His Law, can be justified.

Faith gives you knowledge of who you are, a desperate sinner incapable of fulfilling the Law, and who God is, the perfect judge whose justice cannot be broken. It also gives you knowledge that God alone can save and that God alone has saved through His Messiah. The sinner is graciously accepted on account of Christ who died in his stead: not merely by having belief in God, a simple monotheism if you will, but by apprehending Him in faith, believing in Him and trusting Him. The saints who lived before Christ came into the world were justified by the same means of those saints who are justified today: belief in God and His Messiah. That's St. Paul's whole argument in Romans and Galatians, for instance. God's salvation of sinners by unmerited grace through faith. We are children of Abraham by faith, justified in the sight of the Lord just as Abraham was.