Author Topic: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism  (Read 1331 times)

Offline diaduit

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2021, 01:51:20 AM »
The Oxford Movement of England - of which Saint Newman revitalized - reincorporated aspects of the Sarum Rite back into the Book of Common Prayer. Not to mention, the Book of Common prayer has beautiful poetry in it.
The fact that you said "Saint Newman" shows me that you and I are on totally different wavelengths. You believe in the Novus Ordo and that Francis is the Pope; I don't.

He's still a Saint imo regardless of the official title.
The man was a homosexual and somehow wasn't beatified or canonized in the 60 years after his death before the the Frankenchurch (to use a Cekadaism). Here's a pro tip: gravely doubt any canonization by Francis until proven otherwise.

???????



Francis is an antipope
That is a pretty serious accusation considering the fact that even the SSPX recognizes him as the true Catholic Pope and just about all the Catholic bishops also say he is the true Catholic Pope. Do you think that all these Catholic bishops are wrong? Has the Catholic church defected?



He maybe pope but no self respecting trad would quote him.....you'd get better sources of quotes from a Christmas cracker.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 02:02:58 AM by diaduit »
 
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2021, 02:00:58 AM »
The Oxford Movement of England - of which Saint Newman revitalized - reincorporated aspects of the Sarum Rite back into the Book of Common Prayer. Not to mention, the Book of Common prayer has beautiful poetry in it.
The fact that you said "Saint Newman" shows me that you and I are on totally different wavelengths. You believe in the Novus Ordo and that Francis is the Pope; I don't.

He's still a Saint imo regardless of the official title.
The man was a homosexual and somehow wasn't beatified or canonized in the 60 years after his death before the the Frankenchurch (to use a Cekadaism). Here's a pro tip: gravely doubt any canonization by Francis until proven otherwise.

Saints aren't typically canonized quickly. Saint Thomas More wasn't canonized until 1935. Saint Joan of Arc wasn't canonized until 1920.
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2021, 02:20:12 AM »
The Oxford Movement of England - of which Saint Newman revitalized - reincorporated aspects of the Sarum Rite back into the Book of Common Prayer. Not to mention, the Book of Common prayer has beautiful poetry in it.
The fact that you said "Saint Newman" shows me that you and I are on totally different wavelengths. You believe in the Novus Ordo and that Francis is the Pope; I don't.

He's still a Saint imo regardless of the official title.
The man was a homosexual and somehow wasn't beatified or canonized in the 60 years after his death before the the Frankenchurch (to use a Cekadaism). Here's a pro tip: gravely doubt any canonization by Francis until proven otherwise.

Saints aren't typically canonized quickly. Saint Thomas More wasn't canonized until 1935. Saint Joan of Arc wasn't canonized until 1920.
In 1920 and 1935 we weren't in the Abomination of Desolation with a Counterchurch headed by heretics using loosey-goosey standards and new canonization rites. Being that Paul VI was a homosexual (Source: Rite of Sodomy) and John Paul II was undoubtedly privy to this fact, can't you see that the gay mafia would use its powers to "beatify" and "canonize" a homosexual?
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.

 
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Offline Aulef

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2021, 07:01:29 AM »
Apologetics and other tools from polemists are little effective when it comes to converting non-Catholics because their main goal is different: keeping Catholics from heresy and apostasy.

To convert non-Catholics, here is a list of what you can in order or effectiveness.

1 - Pray for their convertion regularly
2 - Be a good example of a pious Catholic
3 - Teach them as the Church always has done (which is different from debating specific topics).

Tota pulchra es, Maria
Et macula originalis non est in Te
 
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Offline TradGranny

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2021, 04:44:17 PM »
The man was a homosexual

That calumny that was peddled by the Plinio- worshiping cult called TIA. Turns out that the entire basis of their attack was a sodomy rag attempting to normalize their perversion. And the cult fell for it.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila
 
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Offline Aulef

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2021, 06:09:48 AM »
The man was a homosexual

That calumny that was peddled by the Plinio- worshiping cult called TIA. Turns out that the entire basis of their attack was a sodomy rag attempting to normalize their perversion. And the cult fell for it.

I didn't know this TIA existed. But, yes, everything that derived from Plinio and his troop is a censurable cult: TFP, IPCO, Heralds of the Gospel and probably this one you mentioned.

By the way, they try to infiltrate almost every traditional apostolate. People must be very cautious because even if they don't get direct access to the priests, they get to bait many people, especially the young ones, their favorite target.
Tota pulchra es, Maria
Et macula originalis non est in Te
 
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Offline AlNg

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2021, 10:35:58 AM »

That calumny that was peddled by the Plinio- worshiping cult called TIA.
I didn't know that TIA worships Plinio. Does the TIA site mention Plinio somewhere? The site https://traditioninaction.org/ has some good information, but I don't agree with everything there.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 10:54:29 AM by AlNg »
 

Offline sleepybluebird

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2021, 11:24:30 PM »
I have had success converting people from Novus Ordo Catholicism to traditional Catholicism but I have not had success converting others to traditional Catholicism. I think the biggest issue is perceived credibility in this time of crisis in the Church. It doesn't look good to non-Catholics when someone trying to convert them says "but pay no mind to what or who you and everyone else thinks is Catholic", especially when they say "but the Pope (Francis) said this!" or "the local (pro-LGBT NO) priest said this!".

Do you have any strategies that you can recommend? I have read a lot of pre-Vatican II and traditional post-Vatican II apologetics but it doesn't seems to help when trying to converts Prots and atheists.

I agree with the poster Ragnarok about the Latin Mass.  Bring them to Mass with some preparation (if they are open to it and willing to learn).  Maybe a lot of Protestants realize they are missing something, but don't want to face that the Catholic Church is what they have been searching for.  So they avoid it - maybe they look into it for years without taking action, for fear they are joining "the harlot" they were warned about.  But once they see what the Mass is, they can understand just how different it is from a Protestant worship service, and then realize that there is much more to being Catholic than they had thought.  And it helps to see faithful Catholics too!

I think I've cried at every single Mass I've gone to, even if sometimes just a little bit, once realizing this wasn't about listening to a sermon and singing a few songs.  Maybe the people you are trying to convert need to get to a point where they need Christ enough to look for Him where He can be found instead of hoping for the best at their churches.  And inviting someone to Mass helps get them there sooner; I wish someone would have invited me and shown me what to do, but it is what it is and I'm here now and very grateful for it.

I was taught that Catholics were superstitious, had fake repetitive prayers, didn't put Christ first, worshipped images, and made anyone a Saint if they paid for it.  It is difficult to get past these types of ideas, and there are a lot of Protestants who are taught much worse than this.
It is really nice that you are thinking of converting tough, probably stubborn, possibly prideful people.  God bless you!

Atheists I'm not so sure about, they never really made any sense to me. :( Sorry.  They remind me of that XTC song "Dear God" where the guy is complaining to God about a lot of stuff and then says he doesn't believe in Him, all while writing this down as a letter to the God he supposedly doesn't believe in.  That kind of sums up atheism to me, lots of determined whining and bitterness.  I'm not sure what can help shake someone out of that other than a serious life event or trauma of some kind.
 
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Offline TradGranny

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2021, 06:59:20 PM »

That calumny that was peddled by the Plinio- worshiping cult called TIA.
I didn't know that TIA worships Plinio. Does the TIA site mention Plinio somewhere?

Atila Guimarães is the head of TIA. In the notarized document below, an eyewitness testifies that Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.

I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Registry) 3706587, SP, marital status - unmarried, living in Curitiba (Brazil), Manoel C. so Ribas, No 418, swear to be true that when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered into a secret society of that association, known as "Sacred Slavery" [Sempre Viva], also known by its members as "Still Living".

The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira in the same sense in which St. Louis de Montfort Grignion recommended it be done for the Madonna. For this consecration, as a slave to Dr. Plinio, was used the same text drawn up by St. Louis for the consecration to Our Lady, with some adaptation.  . . .

I am not the one who is alive but it is My Lord [Plinio] that lives in me. From him everything comes to me, his spirit is living in me, and I can imitate in this union of  slavery, everything that he is. In the climate of our days, without greatness, without horizons, given over to optimism and mediocrity, time will bring great events to us, with great horizons, in which I will have to live as a hero of the same magnitude as My Lord [Plinio]. Looking inside myself and seeing a lot of smallness, I know that faith requires me to imitate My Lord [Plinio], and I will make of myself a perfect Apostle of the Last Times, according to the prophetic prayer of St. Louis de Montfort Grignion. In all this I ask My Lord [Plinio] to help my unbelief. "

Prayers were also recited to him [Plinio], as a parody of the Ave Maria
, which incorporate the prophecies of St. Louis, St. Elias and himself: . . ." There was also a Litany for him, the 'Doctor', and they said that the prayers had been composed by Marcos Ribeiro Dantas (slave Plinio Paul).

In one of these ejaculatory prayers to Dr. Plinio it was prayed: "The forerunner of Elijah, pray for us!"


The slaves of Dr. Plinio had the habit of confessing to him, confessing their failings and even their sins. After the accusation, if the slave asked for a penance, Dr Plinio had the habit of giving three slaps to the face of the slave. Following this, he would impart the blessing.


Dr. Plinio sat on a small throne with the habit and the mantle of the Third Order. The assistants used a habit without the mantle. The person who was about to be introduced to that company relaxed, as if dead, prostrate upon the ground in front of Dr. Plinio. At this point, from Dr. Plinio, was received the order to stand up to receive a new life and he [Plinio] intoned: "Exsurge." This meant that the person had died and was born a new man, a slave of the prophet, an Apostle of the Last Times.


We could not communicate with other members of TFP the existence of "Sacred Slavery," because - of course - of the nature of this secret society.

The twelve first slaves were:

1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - Plinio Mário.
2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Plinio Eduardo.
3) Luiz Nazareno of Assunpção Filho - Plinio Luiz.
4) João Clá Dias Scognamiglio - Plinio Fernando.
5) Humberto Braccesi - Plinio Cirineu.
6) Fernando Siqueira - Plinio Bernardo.
7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poly - Plinio Jose.
 Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Plinio Paulo.
9) Mário Navarro da Costa - Plinio Elias.
10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança - Plinio Miguel.
11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - Plinio Márcio.
12) Becca Cosme Varella Hijo - Plinio Lázaro.

If you search the Tradition in Action site, you will find 996 items by or about Plinio. Many observers say that Marian Hovart is the actual leader and Atila G. is only the front man. Marion Hovart is the sister of John Hovart who heads the U.S. branch of the TFP cult.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila
 
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Offline LausTibiChriste

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2021, 02:19:58 AM »
I see this as a big problem especially with the Orthobros.

In my estimation, submission to Rome is their biggest hurdle. So t's hard to get them to come over:

"why would we 'accept' Rome when you don't yourself?"
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner
 
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2021, 02:31:16 AM »
I see this as a big problem especially with the Orthobros.

In my estimation, submission to Rome is their biggest hurdle. So t's hard to get them to come over:

"why would we 'accept' Rome when you don't yourself?"
Sedevacatism is easier to explain, in my opinion. I just explain that the Vatican is occupied by imposters, etc. When I explain the dogmas and how every """pope""" after Pius XII has contradicted dogma, it's black and white to any good faith person.

It's much easier than explaining the R&R position: "See, so this guy is the real, actual, true Pope but we just ignore everything he says because he's a heretic. OK, now we submit to him, in theory, because we believe that he is the Vicar of Christ but we actually don't!" 
:vomit:
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 07:34:58 PM by GiftOfGod »
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.

 
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2021, 03:06:21 AM »
I was taught that Catholics were superstitious, had fake repetitive prayers, didn't put Christ first, worshipped images, and made anyone a Saint if they paid for it.  It is difficult to get past these types of ideas, and there are a lot of Protestants who are taught much worse than this.
It is really nice that you are thinking of converting tough, probably stubborn, possibly prideful people.  God bless you!

There are some really intelligent, well-intentioned Protestants out there. But I'm always stunned at the level which Anti-Catholic indoctrination occurs among Evangelical circles.

Imagine reading these comic books as a kid or a teen, what that does to your perception of Roman Catholics.






Even if you reject the claims of the Catholic Church, anyone with any familiarity with history knows the absurdity of these claims - like Israel being a non-religious secular state founded in 1948, composed primarily of European Jews (with it previously being Islamic), or the absurdity of the Vatican founding a new religion which conquers all of the Near East, Caucasus, Africa, and India, centuries before "the Vatican" or even Cardinals existed.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 03:16:19 AM by Ragnarok »
 
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Offline Aulef

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2021, 03:40:41 PM »

That calumny that was peddled by the Plinio- worshiping cult called TIA.
I didn't know that TIA worships Plinio. Does the TIA site mention Plinio somewhere?

Atila Guimarães is the head of TIA. In the notarized document below, an eyewitness testifies that Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.

I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Registry) 3706587, SP, marital status - unmarried, living in Curitiba (Brazil), Manoel C. so Ribas, No 418, swear to be true that when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered into a secret society of that association, known as "Sacred Slavery" [Sempre Viva], also known by its members as "Still Living".

The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira in the same sense in which St. Louis de Montfort Grignion recommended it be done for the Madonna. For this consecration, as a slave to Dr. Plinio, was used the same text drawn up by St. Louis for the consecration to Our Lady, with some adaptation.  . . .

I am not the one who is alive but it is My Lord [Plinio] that lives in me. From him everything comes to me, his spirit is living in me, and I can imitate in this union of  slavery, everything that he is. In the climate of our days, without greatness, without horizons, given over to optimism and mediocrity, time will bring great events to us, with great horizons, in which I will have to live as a hero of the same magnitude as My Lord [Plinio]. Looking inside myself and seeing a lot of smallness, I know that faith requires me to imitate My Lord [Plinio], and I will make of myself a perfect Apostle of the Last Times, according to the prophetic prayer of St. Louis de Montfort Grignion. In all this I ask My Lord [Plinio] to help my unbelief. "

Prayers were also recited to him [Plinio], as a parody of the Ave Maria
, which incorporate the prophecies of St. Louis, St. Elias and himself: . . ." There was also a Litany for him, the 'Doctor', and they said that the prayers had been composed by Marcos Ribeiro Dantas (slave Plinio Paul).

In one of these ejaculatory prayers to Dr. Plinio it was prayed: "The forerunner of Elijah, pray for us!"


The slaves of Dr. Plinio had the habit of confessing to him, confessing their failings and even their sins. After the accusation, if the slave asked for a penance, Dr Plinio had the habit of giving three slaps to the face of the slave. Following this, he would impart the blessing.


Dr. Plinio sat on a small throne with the habit and the mantle of the Third Order. The assistants used a habit without the mantle. The person who was about to be introduced to that company relaxed, as if dead, prostrate upon the ground in front of Dr. Plinio. At this point, from Dr. Plinio, was received the order to stand up to receive a new life and he [Plinio] intoned: "Exsurge." This meant that the person had died and was born a new man, a slave of the prophet, an Apostle of the Last Times.


We could not communicate with other members of TFP the existence of "Sacred Slavery," because - of course - of the nature of this secret society.

The twelve first slaves were:

1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - Plinio Mário.
2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Plinio Eduardo.
3) Luiz Nazareno of Assunpção Filho - Plinio Luiz.
4) João Clá Dias Scognamiglio - Plinio Fernando.
5) Humberto Braccesi - Plinio Cirineu.
6) Fernando Siqueira - Plinio Bernardo.
7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poly - Plinio Jose.
 Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Plinio Paulo.
9) Mário Navarro da Costa - Plinio Elias.
10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança - Plinio Miguel.
11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - Plinio Márcio.
12) Becca Cosme Varella Hijo - Plinio Lázaro.

If you search the Tradition in Action site, you will find 996 items by or about Plinio. Many observers say that Marian Hovart is the actual leader and Atila G. is only the front man. Marion Hovart is the sister of John Hovart who heads the U.S. branch of the TFP cult.


Curious facts for you guys. Dom Bertrand is a member of the Brazilian Royal family which was taken from power after a military coup in 1889. He is the Royal Prince, second in line after Dom Luiz de Orleans and Bragança.

Dom Bertrand is very famous among Brazilian conservatives and is the mains spokesman for the return of the Brazilian Monarchy.

He presents himself as a devout Catholic, however, when asked about his alliances with freemasons and his close ties with TFP, he always slips away. Unfortunately, many traditional Catholics fall for his lies and falsehoods.

His ancestral Brazilian emperors were both freemasons. In fact, His Majesty Dom Pedro I of Brazil (Pedro IV of Portugal) was the grand master of the orient of Brazil back then. It is common to see TFP members surrounded by freemasonry.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 04:01:58 PM by Aulef »
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Et macula originalis non est in Te
 

Offline Goldfinch

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Re: Protestant/pagan to trad Catholic - proselytism
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2021, 05:41:17 PM »
Apologetics and other tools from polemists are little effective when it comes to converting non-Catholics because their main goal is different: keeping Catholics from heresy and apostasy.

To convert non-Catholics, here is a list of what you can in order or effectiveness.

1 - Pray for their conversion regularly
2 - Be a good example of a pious Catholic
3 - Teach them as the Church always has done (which is different from debating specific topics).

I'd add a fourth point: make good use of the green scapular. It is an abundant source of graces for the conversion of sinners to the true faith.
"For there are no works of power, dearly-beloved, without the trials of temptations, there is no faith without proof, no contest without a foe, no victory without conflict. This life of ours is in the midst of snares, in the midst of battles; if we do not wish to be deceived, we must watch: if we want to overcome, we must fight." - St. Leo the Great
 
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