JohnXXIII or JPII who was worse

Started by Der Kaiser, April 23, 2014, 03:51:15 PM

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Der Kaiser

April 23, 2014, 03:51:15 PM
Who was destructive to the Church and why?

My vote JPII, because, well...everything he did
"If a Pope changes the rites of the sacraments he puts himself outside the Church and is Anathema"-Pope Innocent III

"Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of Anti-Christ"-Our Lady of La Sallette

The hebrews have not recognized the lord, therefore we can not recognize the hebrews.-St Pius X

Larry

#1
April 23, 2014, 03:56:36 PM
I agree, JPII. Though he had his good moments. Even Traditio has a soft spot for John XXIII, so he couldn't have been all bad. ;)
"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."-St. John of the Cross

Angelorum

#2
April 23, 2014, 04:02:45 PM
If only John XXXII was being canonized, then I don't think there would be the controversy that we're seeing.
"All men naturally desire to know, but what does knowledge avail without the fear of God? Indeed an humble peasant, that serves God, is better than a proud philosopher, who neglecting himself, considers the course of the heavens." - Thomas à Kempis, Imitation of Christ

Larry

#3
April 23, 2014, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: Angelorum on April 23, 2014, 04:02:45 PM
If only John XXXII was being canonized, then I don't think there would be the controversy that we're seeing.

Probably not. Even Michael Davies said at the beginning of his book Pope John's Council that John XXIII might be canonized someday.
"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."-St. John of the Cross

BigMelvin

#4
April 23, 2014, 04:05:47 PM
having read some of his journal, I once had a very soft spot for John XXIII. It makes me sick that the same man that waxed lyrical about St Aloysius Gonzaga and St John Berchmans could also spout nonsense about the rights of man and aggiornamento.
but for convincing the masses that false ecumenism and the unbridled primacy of conscience is Catholic, JPII wins hands down for me  :-[
I saw the sun go down, on dreams of a utopian evermore...

Modernism controls its victims in the name of obedience, thanks to the suspicion of pride which is cast on any criticism of their reforms, in the name of respect for the Pope, in the name of missionary zeal, of charity, and of unity."
– Fr. Roger Calmel OP, Letter of 8th August, 1973

"In reference to the created intellect, however, (and specifically to the human) things may be said to be false when by their appearances they invite misconception of their true nature"
H.D. Gardeil, O.P., Introduction to the Philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas, Vol. 4: Metaphysics, 138.

Der Kaiser

#5
April 23, 2014, 06:51:22 PM
I agree that I have a soft spot for some of John's writing. There is also that big rumor that had he lived the council would not been anywhere near as gay as it turned out.
"If a Pope changes the rites of the sacraments he puts himself outside the Church and is Anathema"-Pope Innocent III

"Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of Anti-Christ"-Our Lady of La Sallette

The hebrews have not recognized the lord, therefore we can not recognize the hebrews.-St Pius X

Maximilian

#6
April 23, 2014, 07:30:19 PM
Who was more responsible for the Russian Revolution -- Lenin or Stalin?

INPEFESS

#7
April 23, 2014, 10:05:35 PM
John XXIII without question

Were it not for his convention and continuation of the council as such, John Paul II wouldn't have been able to justify doing what he did.

John Paul's scandalous actions were only possible and acceptable in light of the new Modernistic tenets that John XXIII introduced (or allowed to be introduced) in Vatican II.
I  n
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E t
F ilii,
E t
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S ancti

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Greg

#8
April 24, 2014, 06:32:38 AM
It's like debating which of the Trade Towers you would prefer to be working in on Tuesday September 11th 2001.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Petrie

#9
April 24, 2014, 06:37:22 AM
I'm going to have to agree with INPEFESS again.  JohnXXIII made it all possible. 

And LOL Greg.
Also known as 2Vermont in case you were wondering :-)

zork

#10
April 24, 2014, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: Greg on April 24, 2014, 06:32:38 AM
It's like debating which of the Trade Towers you would prefer to be working in on Tuesday September 11th 2001.

:lol:  Right said, Greg.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

Sbyvl36

#11
April 24, 2014, 12:58:04 PM
I think John Paul II was worse.  John XXIII would have never permitted the abominations at Assisi, would have never participated in the "inter-faith" services, and probably have not consented to the NO.  His last words were "Stop the Council".  He was more traditional than we give him credit for.
My blog: sbyvl.wordpress.com

"Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
--St. Thomas Aquinas

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX

"That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive."
--Archbishop Lefebvre

Heliocentricism is idiocy.

Traditionalmom

#12
April 24, 2014, 01:11:31 PM
I know John XXIII convened the council but Paul VI was responsible for most of it wasn't he (allowing most of it).

How come John XXIII gets most of the rap for something he was only alive to see a year of the rest of the time Paul VI was in charge?

NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH Tradmom-a different poster.

"A good man is not a perfect man; a good man is an honest man, faithful and unhesitatingly responsive to the voice of God in his life."-Saint John Fisher

"I die the King's good servant but God's first"-Saint Thomas More

Older Salt

#13
April 24, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
Anibale Bugnini.
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

Angelorum

#14
April 24, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: Older Salt on April 24, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
Anibale Bugnini.

Didn't John XXIII remove Bugnini from both the VII Commission on the Liturgy and his teaching post at the Pontifical Lateran University?
"All men naturally desire to know, but what does knowledge avail without the fear of God? Indeed an humble peasant, that serves God, is better than a proud philosopher, who neglecting himself, considers the course of the heavens." - Thomas à Kempis, Imitation of Christ
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