Evening Mass on Holy Days of Obligation?

Started by Daniel, May 13, 2021, 10:11:30 AM

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Daniel

I've noticed that on holy days of obligation, a lot of the smaller trad parishes schedule Mass for the evening (instead of the morning). The biggest reason for this, as I understand it, is so that people who need to work the morning/day shift will still be able to fulfill the Church's requirement to attend Mass.

I'm just wondering, was this a common practice prior to Vatican II?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. People shouldn't be working on holy days of obligation to begin with, so why are accomodations being made? On the one hand, it does seem to be a nice thing to do for them. But on the other hand, it seems almost like a license to sin. Would it not be better to force them to make a decisive choice, to sin or not to sin? They may refrain from working, as they ought to be doing anyway... or else they'll just have to miss Mass and incur the double sin.

Apart from that, is it just me or is this at least somewhat disruptive to everyone else? Holy days of obligation are basically Sundays, and the Sunday is supposed to be centered on God (even more so than the other days of the week). So it feels pretty natural to go to Mass first thing in the morning, or at least some time in the morning. Then after Mass we are free to recreate and rest. It all makes sense. But by moving Mass to the evening, it's like everything's turned upsidedown. Here I am anxiously sitting around, wasting the day away, waiting until late afternoon when it's time to go to Mass... and then by the time Mass is over and I'm back home, the day is over and it's already time to go to sleep. I suppose it could be argued that I ought to adjust my schedule accordingly... but I just can never get the hang of this bizarre rhythm. It just feels like God is more of an afterthought and not central. Anyone else get that feeling?

Lastly, could this not actually prevent some people from making it to Mass? I personally live two and a half hours away from my chapel, and I don't drive very well at night. The drive home is not something I look forward to, and is potentially dangerous. I think I can probably make it there and back without falling asleep at the wheel, but some people in my situation--especially the elderly--might not be able to do so, and may thus be forced to skip Mass.

And what about the people who observe the more traditional Eucharistic fast: no food or drink between midnight and Holy Communion? Seems they're out of luck.

andy

Why you are focusing so tight on not your problems?

Get on the knees, grab the Rosary and pray it every day. You showed recently that this is within your abilities. Our Lady will slowly pull your from whatever mess you are in.

Daniel

#2
Quote from: andy on May 13, 2021, 09:08:09 PM
Why you are focusing so tight on not your problems?

Get on the knees, grab the Rosary and pray it every day. You showed recently that this is within your abilities. Our Lady will slowly pull your from whatever mess you are in.

Maybe I'll do that once I can make sense of it.


But what has that got to do with anything? Sorry if the thread came across as more of a rant, but was interested in discussion on the topic. It's origins, whether it makes sense, is a good idea, etc.


For something more "controversial", what about the practice of scheduling Mass for the evening before the holy day of obligation? Many trads complain that this is a novelty, or they say that it somehow constitutes a sin against the third commandment... but I'm not seeing it. I don't know the history of the so-called "anticipated Mass", but I think it actually makes a lot more sense than having Mass at the end of the holy day. Of course it's not ideal, but I'd think the anticipated Mass should be preferable over the end-of-the-day Mass since you're at least starting the holy day off on the right foot... seeing as vespers usually isn't even an option at most parishes.

andy

Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 05:26:01 AM
Quote from: andy on May 13, 2021, 09:08:09 PM
Why you are focusing so tight on not your problems?

Get on the knees, grab the Rosary and pray it every day. You showed recently that this is within your abilities. Our Lady will slowly pull your from whatever mess you are in.

Maybe I'll do that once I can make sense of it.


It has ALL to do with the topic. If you reject the prayer and contemplation and live in the state of condemnation aka mortal sin, you are spiritually blind and will not be able to arrive at the Truth. This is that simple.

The Harlequin King

QuoteI'm just wondering, was this a common practice prior to Vatican II?

No. The reason is because before certain revisions to liturgical law by Pope Pius XII in the 1950's, Mass was usually not allowed to be offered after 1pm.

That being said, as an MC/subdeacon/cantor/schola director, I never, and I mean NEVER offer my services to assist on a weekday before 6pm. If you want to have a sung Requiem for a funeral, you better keep that body on ice 'til Saturday.

Daniel

Quote from: andy on May 14, 2021, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 05:26:01 AM
Quote from: andy on May 13, 2021, 09:08:09 PM
Why you are focusing so tight on not your problems?

Get on the knees, grab the Rosary and pray it every day. You showed recently that this is within your abilities. Our Lady will slowly pull your from whatever mess you are in.

Maybe I'll do that once I can make sense of it.


It has ALL to do with the topic. If you reject the prayer and contemplation and live in the state of condemnation aka mortal sin, you are spiritually blind and will not be able to arrive at the Truth. This is that simple.

It's not that simple, because actual grace is not the same thing as sanctifying grace. Not everyone in mortal sin is "spiritually blind" and unable to arrive at truth.

That said, I am spiritually blind. I thought I mentioned this in the other thread?

I never said I reject prayer or contemplation though.

I'm still not seeing what any of this has to do with the topic of this thread, nor am I seeing how praying the rosary is going to help.

The Harlequin King

To offer a more constructive follow-up comment:

The most "pastoral" approach is typically to offer two Masses: a low Mass in the morning for those who just want to get it out of the way, and a sung or solemn Mass in the evening for those who want to take their time and really savor the full liturgical experience.

Having a full choir for any liturgy in the morning is impossible unless it's the weekend, Christmas, or the church is attached to a choir school or something like that. And even if a choir were assembled, there would be a feeling like the Mass has to be rushed, or corners cut, chants abbreviated, or whatever to let people go to work on time. But at the end of the day, there's no feeling of needing to rush.

andy

#7
Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 12:38:30 PM

It's not that simple, because actual grace is not the same thing as sanctifying grace. Not everyone in mortal sin is "spiritually blind" and unable to arrive at truth.

That said, I am spiritually blind. I thought I mentioned this in the other thread?

I never said I reject prayer or contemplation though.

I'm still not seeing what any of this has to do with the topic of this thread, nor am I seeing how praying the rosary is going to help.


Praying the Rosary is the simplest and most reliable way to gain some common sense and logical thinking which as you have displayed numerous times is not in your possession. By the way, not capitalizing the word "Rosary" is offensive to the Catholic ears.

Being in state of mortal sin is by definition being spiritually dead. The ONLY way out is to subject yourself to God in the Sacrament of Confession which you stubbornly reject and have done absolutely nothing to approach.

So at that point it a waste of yours and others time to talk about some details of church law (e.g. Eucharistic Fast). In fact, it is a sin for others to engage into those topics knowing that you have bigger problems.

Man, get yourself a True LIFE.




Daniel

#8
Quote from: andy on May 14, 2021, 01:21:19 PM
Praying the Rosary is the simplest and most reliable way to gain some common sense and logical thinking which as you have displayed numerous times is not in your possession.

That's what you say, but some of us don't agree with the "one size fits all" mentality. The Church doesn't even teach that everybody must pray the Rosary. I'm sure it's a fine prayer once you make sense of it... but I can't make sense of it. (That's a topic for another thread, I guess.) But I can't make sense of it at the moment, and my past experience has been somewhat mixed. Praying it senselessly certainly doesn't help me though, but only enkindles hatred and despair and leads me into false worship.

QuoteThe ONLY way out is to subject yourself to God in the Sacrament of Confession which you stubbornly reject and have done absolutely nothing to approach.

What are you talking about?

I haven't "stubbornly rejected" "subjecting myself to God in the sacrament of Confession". I don't know where you're getting that from. My words: "I can't go to confession" because "it would be invalid". I repeat, I refrain from going because I am literally unable to make a valid confession under present circumstances. This is not the same thing as stubbornly refusing to go. Your accusations are not only unjust but uncharitable, and I'd appreciate it if you would cut it out.

I also never "did absolutely nothing to approach". I've literally been doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. Again, read my words: "At a bare minimum I want to get back into a state of grace". Hence my asking if anybody can help me to get in contact with a good priest: so that said priest can direct my course of action and, specifically, prepare me to make a good general confession. The very fact that I bumped the thread refutes your claim that I have taken no steps towards confession. And bumping the thread isn't the only thing I've done; I've also been sending e-mails and making phone calls, trying to get in touch with priests (which is pretty hard to do when I have no idea whom even to contact); and I've been praying about it.

But you want to know what part of the problem is? It's that the devil is inciting people such as yourself to blame the victim and not take me seriously. Maybe if my fellow Catholics were to see through the satanic conspiracy, and show some compassion, then I'd actually be able to receive the assistance that I'm seeking. Maybe I'd then be able to get my spiritual life on track, and my financial life on track, in order to keep my spiritual life on track. But no.

Now after having written this, I do apologize for my tone. Don't take it personally; I am just annoyed and irritated at the whole thing.

andy

Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
That's what you say, but some of us don't agree with the "one size fits all" mentality. The Church doesn't even teach that everybody must pray the Rosary. I'm sure it's a fine prayer once you make sense of it... but I can't make sense of it. (That's a topic for another thread, I guess.) But I can't make sense of it at the moment, and my past experience has been somewhat mixed. Praying it senselessly certainly doesn't help me though, but only enkindles hatred and despair and leads me into false worship.

Priests often tell to say a Rosary as a penance. This is mandatory. Christ is only way to the Father. Our Lady is the only way to our Lord Jesus. If you do not accept the dogma about The Immaculate Conception you reject entire Catholic Faith.

The sign of The Cross, the Lord's Prayer and the Angelic Salutation are the most necessary prayers listed in the Roman Catholic Missal. There is no way around it.


Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 03:02:52 PM

QuoteThe ONLY way out is to subject yourself to God in the Sacrament of Confession which you stubbornly reject and have done absolutely nothing to approach.

What are you talking about?


Just go there in person. Knock on the door. Find out where they offer the confessions and just show up. 2h to the nearest SSPX church is nothing. Put some effort to find the transportation or just walk there. Phone calls and emails do not count.


Melkor

#10
Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: andy on May 14, 2021, 01:21:19 PM
Praying the Rosary is the simplest and most reliable way to gain some common sense and logical thinking which as you have displayed numerous times is not in your possession.

That's what you say, but some of us don't agree with the "one size fits all" mentality. The Church doesn't even teach that everybody must pray the Rosary. I'm sure it's a fine prayer once you make sense of it... but I can't make sense of it. (That's a topic for another thread, I guess.) But I can't make sense of it at the moment, and my past experience has been somewhat mixed. Praying it senselessly certainly doesn't help me though, but only enkindles hatred and despair and leads me into false worship.

QuoteThe ONLY way out is to subject yourself to God in the Sacrament of Confession which you stubbornly reject and have done absolutely nothing to approach.

What are you talking about?

I haven't "stubbornly rejected" "subjecting myself to God in the sacrament of Confession". I don't know where you're getting that from. My words: "I can't go to confession" because "it would be invalid". I repeat, I refrain from going because I am literally unable to make a valid confession under present circumstances. This is not the same thing as stubbornly refusing to go. Your accusations are not only unjust but uncharitable, and I'd appreciate it if you would cut it out.

I also never "did absolutely nothing to approach". I've literally been doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. Again, read my words: "At a bare minimum I want to get back into a state of grace". Hence my asking if anybody can help me to get in contact with a good priest: so that said priest can direct my course of action and, specifically, prepare me to make a good general confession. The very fact that I bumped the thread refutes your claim that I have taken no steps towards confession. And bumping the thread isn't the only thing I've done; I've also been sending e-mails and making phone calls, trying to get in touch with priests (which is pretty hard to do when I have no idea whom even to contact); and I've been praying about it.

But you want to know what part of the problem is? It's that the devil is inciting people such as yourself to blame the victim and not take me seriously. Maybe if my fellow Catholics were to see through the satanic conspiracy, and show some compassion, then I'd actually be able to receive the assistance that I'm seeking. Maybe I'd then be able to get my spiritual life on track, and my financial life on track, in order to keep my spiritual life on track. But no.

Now after having written this, I do apologize for my tone. Don't take it personally; I am just annoyed and irritated at the whole thing.

What's to understand about the Rosary? Pick up the beads, say the prayers to the best of your ability, focus on the mysteries, and receive  the tremendous graces. Easy as pie my friend
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Melkor

Quote from: andy on May 14, 2021, 04:15:43 PM
Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
That's what you say, but some of us don't agree with the "one size fits all" mentality. The Church doesn't even teach that everybody must pray the Rosary. I'm sure it's a fine prayer once you make sense of it... but I can't make sense of it. (That's a topic for another thread, I guess.) But I can't make sense of it at the moment, and my past experience has been somewhat mixed. Praying it senselessly certainly doesn't help me though, but only enkindles hatred and despair and leads me into false worship.

Priests often tell to say a Rosary as a penance. This is mandatory. Christ is only way to the Father. Our Lady is the only way to our Lord Jesus. If you do not accept the dogma about The Immaculate Conception you reject entire Catholic Faith.

The sign of The Cross, the Lord's Prayer and the Angelic Salutation are the most necessary prayers listed in the Roman Catholic Missal. There is no way around it.


Quote from: Daniel on May 14, 2021, 03:02:52 PM

QuoteThe ONLY way out is to subject yourself to God in the Sacrament of Confession which you stubbornly reject and have done absolutely nothing to approach.

What are you talking about?


Just go there in person. Knock on the door. Find out where they offer the confessions and just show up. 2h to the nearest SSPX church is nothing. Put some effort to find the transportation or just walk there. Phone calls and emails do not count.

X2^
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Daniel

#12
Quote from: andy on May 14, 2021, 04:15:43 PM
Our Lady is the only way to our Lord Jesus.

And this is what's in dispute; the Church does not teach this. Or, if you are claiming that the Church does teach this, you better have some proof. It's quite the claim, after all.

The way to Jesus is the Holy Ghost.

QuoteIf you do not accept the dogma about The Immaculate Conception you reject entire Catholic Faith.

Can you cut it out? I didn't deny the Immaculate Conception nor did I even mention the Immaculate Conception.

QuoteThe sign of The Cross, the Lord's Prayer and the Angelic Salutation are the most necessary prayers listed in the Roman Catholic Missal. There is no way around it.

What's your point?

I don't deny that these are among the standard basic vocal prayers found in pretty much all Catholic prayer books, that these particular prayers are approved of by the Church, or that they have their place in the liturgy.

What I am denying is that the Rosary, in particular, is necessary for salvation. If it is necessary, then every Christian in the first millennium was damned, as they didn't have the Rosary. But that's nonsense.

What I am also questioning, though not denying, is the claim that God actually wants or expects every Catholic to pray the Rosary every day. I'm aware that it is generally believed that our Lady requested this at Fatima, but this doesn't exactly answer the question as I am also aware that some trads reject Fatima. Might I add, private revelation has never been binding anyway?

Quote
Just go there in person. Knock on the door. Find out where they offer the confessions and just show up. 2h to the nearest SSPX church is nothing. Put some effort to find the transportation or just walk there. Phone calls and emails do not count.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I didn't say I can't get to confession because I lack transportation. What I said is that I can't go to confession because any confession that I do make will be invalid.



Quote from: Melkor on May 14, 2021, 04:58:57 PM
What's to understand about the Rosary? Pick up the beads, say the prayers to the best of your ability, focus on the mysteries, and receive  the tremendous graces. Easy as pie my friend

Well, what I don't understand is:
1.) how I can focus on the mysteries when I'm too busy praying the vocal prayers,
2.) why each vocal prayer is being repeated to the point of torture, and
3.) why the Salve Regina ascribes to our Lady what appears to be attributes that are proper only to God.

moneil

#13
To expand on what The Harlequin King has written ...

Traditionally for many centuries the Mass was only celebrated between dawn and mid-day.  Some earlier traditions would hold that the Mass should not be celebrated until after the chanting of the Third Hour (None, or 9:00 AM) and this is still often observed in the Eastern churches.  The principal exceptions to these norms were the traditions of Midnight Mass at Christmas and the Divine Liturgy after Midnight during the Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday.  During the 19th century indults were granted (this occurred in the United States, I don't know how many other countries) to have very early Masses at 2:00 or 3:00 AM or thereabouts.  These were sometimes called "printers Masses" as the pressmen who printed the Sunday paper would go to Mass, and the delivery crew could also attend Mass before beginning their rounds.

A practical issue surrounding the time of the Mass was that prior to 1953 one fasted from all food and liquids, including water, from midnight before receiving Holy Communion.  Another issue was the effect of the industrial revolution on work schedules.  Many manufacturing systems  were (and are) a continuous flow process (steel, aluminum, pulp come to mind) and one can't just shut off the equipment on Friday or Saturday and turn it back on Monday morning.  Also there are certain occupations (fire fighters, ambulance drivers, hospital and nursing home workers, funeral home attendants) where staff need to be available at all hours every day of the week.

In 1953 Pope Pius XII issued the Apostolic Constitution Christus Dominus https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12chdom.htm which began the process of changing the fast regulations to 3 hours from solid food and alcohol and 1 hour from liquids, with water being permitted at any time.  Bishops were given authority to allow evening Masses in their dioceses.

As for the OP's question about pre VII practice for Mass times on Holy Days of Obligation, which were usually on week days ~ I was born in 1951 so I feel qualified to respond.  A lot depended on the number of priests available (a priest could only offer 2 Masses on Sundays and Days of Obligation), the size of the parish, the circumstances of the parishioners, etc.  It would be fairly common to have the standard weekday Mass (usually 8:00 AM) and an evening Mass.  If enough priests were available there might also be an early Mass which could be attended before going to work and a midmorning Mass.  The latter was especially common if there was a school attached to the parish.


Insanis

Quote from: Daniel on May 13, 2021, 10:11:30 AM
I'm just wondering, was this a common practice prior to Vatican II?


Maybe, but it doesn't matter. Holy Days of Obligation existed because they are imposed by authority, and that same authority can change it.

That is why they are called what they are called. They can make as many or as few as they wish.

The sin of failure to observe them is only a sin because of the authority behind the imposed obligation.

Be careful about seeing a particular "burden" imposed as being the "right" one, and everything else being defective.